Science and atheism inconsistent?

[shunyadragon]

If you had read and understood my post, you would have realized that my comment was not based on any materialistic perspective, it was based on my interactions with Bahais. ETA: Your constant repetitive comments about materialism are really getting boring.

Yes it is getting boring, but I did not bring the Baha'i Faith up and you presented a negative hostile view of the Baha'i Faith.
As I already state it is not the subject of the thread.

 

[shunyadragon]

'Independent investigation of knowledge and truth'! Wow. That sounds really profound. Yet most of the Bahai's I've encountered haven't shown that they have done any 'Independent investigation of knowledge and truth'.

All I've heard are assertions repeated ad nauseam, or I've been told to look at walls of text written by people within the Bahai organization.

This is an example of your very hostile posts concerning the Baha'i Faith based on your biased stereotyping.

 

[shunyadragon]

Let me put it this way:

What other sorts of 'facts and evidence' are there?

What *does* justify a non-materialist view?

In this thread, off topic, I am not trying to justify a non-materialist perspective. I was simply stating the facts that the arguments presented, off topic, were demands from a strict materialist perspective.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

Yes, hostility

This thread had nothing to do with the Baha'i Faith and I did not bring the subject up.


​

I did not originally bring the subject up of the Baha'i Faith.

I did not originally bring the subject up of the Baha'i Faith.

Of course you brought up the subject of your Baha'i faith on this thread, and I listed them in my post #569. So stop saying that you didn't do something that you clearly did. Denying what is clearly obvious, only makes you look like a "Trumpanese", not like a rationalist. I would suggest that you take my advice and find a more suitable thread, to avoid continuing to embarrass yourself, and those reading these somewhat detached responses. Your beliefs are stereotypic of other beliefs. It is only the names of the characters and the events that have changed, to protect the perception of a religious distinction. Since your mindset is totally committed to your beliefs, you have lost any sense of objectivity or the cognitive ability of self-examination(introspection). Therefore, non-materialism is the only avenue that gives the appearance of having a rational discourse. But, unless you can posit anything that is non-material, I'm afraid we are just descending into the weird world of myths, spirits, superstitions, and fairy tales.

 

[shunyadragon]

Of course you brought up the subject of your Baha'i faith on this thread, and I listed them in my post #569. So stop saying that you didn't do something that you clearly did. Denying what is clearly obvious, only makes you look like a "Trumpanese", not like a rationalist. I would suggest that you take my advice and find a more suitable thread, to avoid continuing to embarrass yourself, and those reading these somewhat detached responses. Your beliefs are stereotypic of other beliefs. It is only the names of the characters and the events that have changed, to protect the perception of a religious distinction. Since your mindset is totally committed to your beliefs, you have lost any sense of objectivity or the cognitive ability of self-examination(introspection). Therefore, non-materialism is the only avenue that gives the appearance of having a rational discourse. But, unless you can posit anything that is non-material, I'm afraid we are just descending into the weird world of myths, spirits, superstitions, and fairy tales.

Simply a strict materialist worldview.

 

[tas8831]

Ancient religious mythology is not God. So, rejecting ancient religious mythology as being ancient religious mythology and not God is ... well .... stupid.

And yet... we are told that this unoriginal ancient mythology was 'inspired' by God (or even written by Him, depending on who you talk to). Maybe the silly religious myths had nothing great for inspiration?

 

[shunyadragon]

And yet... we are told that this unoriginal ancient mythology was 'inspired' by God (or even written by Him, depending on who you talk to). Maybe the silly religious myths had nothing great for inspiration?

The mythology of the Bible is a very human thing.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

Simply a strict materialist worldview.

Back to selective denial when it suits you again, I see. No, it is not a materialistic worldview, it is an honest and rational worldview based on facts and material evidence. You should try seeing reality as it is, and not how you want it to be. There is no material basis for anything out of your mouth. You should also learn how to admit when you're wrong, or make a mistake. They tell me it is good for the soul. Would you please just move on and rejoin the rest of the choir, rather than be reduced to this level of snarking. Surely, at your age, you must have some dignity and pride left?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

'Independent investigation of knowledge and truth'! Wow. That sounds really profound. Yet most of the Bahai's I've encountered haven't shown that they have done any 'Independent investigation of knowledge and truth'. All I've heard are assertions repeated ad nauseam, or I've been told to look at walls of text written by people within the Bahai organization.

This is an example of your very hostile posts concerning the Baha'i Faith based on your biased stereotyping.

I don't see hostility for the Baha'i Faith there. He's telling you that he doesn't find communications coming from the Baha'i to suggest any independent investigation of knowledge or truth. I would say that that is true of all religious activity rooted in a god belief, an undemonstrated premise from which most of the rest follows. No conclusion based on the assumption that a god or gods exist would have value to those no convinced that such a thing exists, and no such conclusion would be considered knowledge or truth to the skeptic - just somebody else's belief based on an unshared premise.

Ancient religious mythology is not God. So, rejecting ancient religious mythology as being ancient religious mythology and not God is ... well .... stupid.

But God is very likely ancient religious mythology.

I was simply stating the facts that the arguments presented, off topic, were demands from a strict materialist perspective.

How else are you to demonstrate the truth of your claims if not with evidence, which is material? If you are not willing to provide tangible evidence in support of your claims, then they are of no use to others except to note what you believe, not what is true about the world.

You're not required to produce such evidence unless your purpose is to be believed, and you are dealing with somebody who decides what is true about the world using only evidence, not faith or any other method.

The mythology of the Bible is a very human thing.

Agreed. And yet it is the basis of Christianity and everything that Christians think they know about their god. It is offered as evidence that that god exists, when it is only evidence that man wrote another holy book and claimed it came from a god.

 

[ecco]

Yes it is getting boring, but I did not bring the Baha'i Faith up and you presented a negative hostile view of the Baha'i Faith.
As I already state it is not the subject of the thread.

Perhaps you did not intend to do so, but you stated...

Creation of our natural existence and humanity by God by natural methods is in harmony with science is not in conflict with science, but 'a woman formed from the rib of a man,' would be in conflict with science and natural methods.

I noted a disconnect between that comment and your Bahai beliefs and responded...

But that is specifically what one of your Messengers said happened. Did the Messenger lie? If so how many other lies did he tell? How many other Messengers have lied?

That's just the nature of forum threads, one thing leads to another.

 

[ecco]

'Independent investigation of knowledge and truth'! Wow. That sounds really profound. Yet most of the Bahai's I've encountered haven't shown that they have done any 'Independent investigation of knowledge and truth'.

All I've heard are assertions repeated ad nauseam, or I've been told to look at walls of text written by people within the Bahai organization.

This is an example of your very hostile posts concerning the Baha'i Faith based on your biased stereotyping.

I state facts and you assert I am being hostile. In regards to "Independent investigation of knowledge and truth", I'll stand by my comment:

All I've heard are assertions repeated ad nauseam, or I've been told to look at walls of text written by people within the Bahai organization.
​

​

 

[shunyadragon]

I state facts and you assert I am being hostile. In regards to "Independent investigation of knowledge and truth", I'll stand by my comment:

All I've heard are assertions repeated ad nauseam, or I've been told to look at walls of text written by people within the Bahai organization.
​

Not facts concerning your third hand comments concerning Baha'is based on your anecdotal negative opinions.

 

[shunyadragon]

Perhaps you did not intend to do so, but you stated...

​

I noted a disconnect between that comment and your Bahai beliefs and responded...

​

That's just the nature of forum threads, one thing leads to another.

I responded to a question concerning the Bible and what was literal and the Baha'i belief and did not initiate that topic concerning the certainty of belief or God in the Baha'i Faith.

 

[shunyadragon]

I don't see hostility for the Baha'i Faith there. He's telling you that he doesn't find communications coming from the Baha'i to suggest any independent investigation of knowledge or truth. I would say that that is true of all religious activity rooted in a god belief, an undemonstrated premise from which most of the rest follows. No conclusion based on the assumption that a god or gods exist would have value to those no convinced that such a thing exists, and no such conclusion would be considered knowledge or truth to the skeptic - just somebody else's belief based on an unshared premise.

Which is a hostile view of the Baha'i Faith if you take all his posts in context.

But God is very likely ancient religious mythology.

Which is your belief. OK.

How else are you to demonstrate the truth of your claims if not with evidence, which is material? If you are not willing to provide tangible evidence in support of your claims, then they are of no use to others except to note what you believe, not what is true about the world.

You're not required to produce such evidence unless your purpose is to be believed, and you are dealing with somebody who decides what is true about the world using only evidence, not faith or any other method.

Which is the view of a strict materialist.

Agreed. And yet it is the basis of Christianity and everything that Christians think they know about their god. It is offered as evidence that that god exists, when it is only evidence that man wrote another holy book and claimed it came from a god.

I offer no such evidence. Debate this one with the Christians.

 

[shunyadragon]

Back to selective denial when it suits you again, I see. No, it is not a materialistic worldview, it is an honest and rational worldview based on facts and material evidence. You should try seeing reality as it is, and not how you want it to be. There is no material basis for anything out of your mouth. You should also learn how to admit when you're wrong, or make a mistake. They tell me it is good for the soul. Would you please just move on and rejoin the rest of the choir, rather than be reduced to this level of snarking. Surely, at your age, you must have some dignity and pride left?

Simply a strict materialist worldview.

 

[PureX]

And yet... we are told that this unoriginal ancient mythology was 'inspired' by God (or even written by Him, depending on who you talk to). Maybe the silly religious myths had nothing great for inspiration?

By most people's conception of God, a great many thoughts and behaviors are "inspired by God". I find nothing particularly unusual in that claim. And those who think God wrote the Bible are a very small, naive minority of the world's many, many, theists. To use their definition of "God" as the one convincing us that God doesn't exist would be quite an exercise in the old 'straw man' debate tactic.

 

[shunyadragon]

By most people's conception of God, a great many thoughts and behaviors are "inspired by God". I find nothing particularly unusual in that claim. And those who think God wrote the Bible are a very small, naive minority of the world's many, many, theists. To use their definition of "God" as the one to convincing us that God doesn't exist would be quite the exercise in the old 'straw man' debate tactic.

Maybe naive, but not a distinct minority, because many if not most fundamentalist Christians believe this, or as often described a literal Bible first authored and directly inspired as literal by God. Fundamentalist Christian make up to 40% to over 50% of the Christians of the USA.

 

[ecco]

I state facts and you assert I am being hostile. In regards to "Independent investigation of knowledge and truth", I'll stand by my comment:
All I've heard are assertions repeated ad nauseam, or I've been told to look at walls of text written by people within the Bahai organization.

Not facts concerning your third hand comments concerning Baha'is based on your anecdotal negative opinions.

No facts? RE: Wall of text...

Excerpts from: Gender equality - Bahaikipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith

One of the main teachings of the Bahá’í Faith is gender equality; that men and women are equal. The equality of the sexes is seen by Bahá’ís as a spiritual and moral standard that is essential for the unification of the planet and the unfoldment of world order, and in the importance of implementing the principle in individual, family, and community life. Although men and women are equal in the Bahá’í Faith, this equality does not imply sameness. Men and women are seen as having different strengths and abilities that enable them to better fill different roles. Thus there are certain teachings that in some cases give preference to one of the genders (see below).

The Bahá’í teachings is that men and women are, and always have been equal in the sight of God. Bahá’u’lláh has written:

"In this Day the Hand of divine grace hath removed all distinctions. The servants of God and His handmaidens are regarded on the same plane. Blessed is the servant who hath attained unto that which God hath decreed, and likewise the leaf moving in accordance with the breezes of His will."
(Bahá’u’lláh, from a Tablet - translated from the Persian and Arabic.) [2]

Bahá’u’lláh, further writes that spiritual station of each person depends on their devotion to God, and that women who have a higher devotion excel over men:

"By My Life! The names of handmaidens who are devoted to God are written and set down by the Pen of the Most High in the Crimson Book. They excel over men in the sight of God. How numerous are the heroes and knights in the field who are bereft of the True One and have no share in His recognition, but thou hast attained and received thy fill."
(Bahá’u’lláh, from a Tablet- translated from the Persian.) [3]

If that was the only one, then it would indeed be anecdotal. However, I can post a lot more of them.

My comment about Bahai's posting walls of text is a factual statement.



Note to self "isAaR" P981

 

[ecco]

But that is specifically what one of your Messengers said happened. Did the Messenger lie? If so how many other lies did he tell? How many other Messengers have lied?

I responded to a question concerning the Bible and what was literal and the Baha'i belief and did not initiate that topic concerning the certainty of belief or God in the Baha'i Faith.

Regardless, you did make a comment regarding scripture. I questioned the veracity of that comment given what I understand about Bahai and Messengers. Did you ever respond to those questions (repeated above). Perhaps now would be a good time. To refresh your memory, it concerned Moses' recounting of the creation story.

 

[shunyadragon]

No facts? RE: Wall of text...


If that was the only one, then it would indeed be anecdotal. However, I can post a lot more of them.

false stereotyping generalization.

My comment about Baha'is posting walls of text is a factual statement.

No more than others, and not all Baha'is post walls of text.