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Science and atheism inconsistent?

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
No. The logic is same. If only one God system should have prospered, only one food also ought to have been healthy.

Are you really saying that if we only had one God emerge from from thousands, then we should only have one food emerge from many unhealthy food?. Does this mean that the reason we have many unhealthy and different foods, is the same reason we have many different Gods? If this represents your twisted sense of logic, then we're done.
 

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
The demand to justify a non-materialistic view with materialistic facts and evidence is indeed a strict materialist view.

So just more of the usual "huff and bluff" rhetoric again. So, you are saying that you can't support or justify a non-materialistic position with any facts or evidence. And, your rationale for this is that it is a "strict materialistic view". This is a very sad and meaningless response. Now you are reduced to simply rephrasing my own statements. Without evidence we both know that you are just talking about your opinions, your beliefs, and your particular faith. All these are subjective and totally irrelevant regarding any knowledge and certainty claims.

What are you afraid of? Why don't you answer my questions? You are the one making the claims. I'm only questioning the validity of your claims.

ps. Please don't have me go back and lists all of your unsupported claims/assertions. I'm saying this before you go into denial again.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
This is a matter of the 'Independent investigation of knowledge and truth' that is a foundation principle of the Baha'i Faith.

'Independent investigation of knowledge and truth'! Wow. That sounds really profound. Yet most of the Bahai's I've encountered haven't shown that they have done any 'Independent investigation of knowledge and truth'.

All I've heard are assertions repeated ad nauseam, or I've been told to look at walls of text written by people within the Bahai organization.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
'Independent investigation of knowledge and truth'! Wow. That sounds really profound. Yet most of the Bahai's I've encountered haven't shown that they have done any 'Independent investigation of knowledge and truth'.

From your perspective of a strict materialist I can see that you have this view.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
So just more of the usual "huff and bluff" rhetoric again. So, you are saying that you can't support or justify a non-materialistic position with any facts or evidence. And, your rationale for this is that it is a "strict materialistic view". This is a very sad and meaningless response. Now you are reduced to simply rephrasing my own statements. Without evidence we both know that you are just talking about your opinions, your beliefs, and your particular faith. All these are subjective and totally irrelevant regarding any knowledge and certainty claims.

What are you afraid of? Why don't you answer my questions? You are the one making the claims. I'm only questioning the validity of your claims.

ps. Please don't have me go back and lists all of your unsupported claims/assertions. I'm saying this before you go into denial again.

Again . . by definition:"The demand to justify a non-materialistic view with materialistic facts and evidence is indeed a strict materialist view."
 

ecco

Veteran Member
'Independent investigation of knowledge and truth'! Wow. That sounds really profound. Yet most of the Bahai's I've encountered haven't shown that they have done any 'Independent investigation of knowledge and truth'.

All I've heard are assertions repeated ad nauseam, or I've been told to look at walls of text written by people within the Bahai organization.
From your perspective of a strict materialist I can see that you have this view.

If you had read and understood my post, you would have realized that my comment was not based on any materialistic perspective, it was based on my interactions with Bahais.



ETA: Your constant repetitive comments about materialism are really getting boring.
 

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
Again . . by definition:"The demand to justify a non-materialistic view with materialistic facts and evidence is indeed a strict materialist view."


It is totally irrelevant what my world view is. It only matters what the context of my questions are. What exactly is wrong with asking for material evidence to support a non-material belief/assertion within a material world/reality? Absolutely nothing. When material evidence, logic, and observations become irrelevant, then all claims, material or non-material, become equal in their certainties. Maybe that is your goal, to make evidence irrelevant? If I claimed to own a red, white and blue invisible dragon, then I need to support that claim with direct or indirect material evidence. If I claim that I can fly, then I need materialistic/physical evidence to support that claim. If I claim that there is an upgraded version of a messenger demi-god, that commutes back and forth with a God, to deliver His message to humans, I would need to demonstrate this if I want others to also belief it. Why? Because invisible dragons, flying humans, and messenger/gods all suspend or violate the natural laws of physics. Unless you can demonstrate even one example of a violation or suspension of our physical laws, then these events just cannot occur. Once we go down this slippery slope looking for alternative, non-material or metaphysical answers, then anything that can exist in the mind can also exist in reality. This opens the door for justifying insanity.

So, should we simply accept anything people say just because they say it? Should we simply accept the certainty of all non-material claims, even though there is no material evidence to support it? Should we not expect extraordinary evidence to support extraordinary claims? Should those believing in the "flying spaghetti monster" simply say that their beliefs are valid, because your worldview is a "strict materialistic view". Until you can demonstrate that a non-material world/reality exists, my actions and limitations will always be governed by the physical laws of this material/physical world.

Regarding the "independent investigation of knowledge and truth", is merely a toothless slogan. https://bahaiteachings.org/independently-investigate-truth , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith This investigation is all done in-house. Only approved belief-specific text materials are allowed. You are guided by the simplest form of persuasion and positive feedback mechanisms. Ego and Machoism. Alternative, liberal, or independent truths, are discourage and penalized. Individualism, freedom, and innocents are the first human qualities to fall. If you want people to listen to you, just tell them what they want to hear. But if you want people to follow you, just make them believe that it was their decision. Works every time. This is why the Baha'i is more a cult than a religion. But this is just my opinion and my reasons why.

So, rather than rote parrot the same irrational sound bites, why should we not expect a materialistic explanation about anything that occurs within our material reality? Never mind I don't expect an answer, just more glib, bluff, and more straw man to keep knocking down. Clearly, you have been reduced to having nothing more to contribute, other than simply going the distance out of pride.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
If you had read and understood my post, you would have realized that my comment was not based on any materialistic perspective, it was based on my interactions with Bahais.

. . . which was filtered through your philosophy of 'strict materialism' and hostility toward the Baha'i Faith. Also a misunderstanding of the different aspect of the Independent Investigation of knowledge and Truth. In this principle you also have the right to search and explore the alternatives of belief and knowledge without preconceived beliefs, nor pressure and persecution of your choices. It has important applications in science. In some it may be a path to certitude.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
The flaw of atheism is not what the atheist chooses to believe about the existence of gods. It's choosing to believe it without evidence, reason, or purpose.

Of course the atheist has evidence, reason, and purpose in not accepting the ancient myths of religion.
Theism lacks evidence, but it at least can offer a positive purpose.

Premised on...?
And agnosticism lack evidence, but it at least can claim honest skepticism, with an open mind. But atheism can claim none of these. It fails at every criteria.
Well, thats one way to pretend to have an intellectual rationale for accepting ancient middle eastern tall tales.
 

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
. . . which was filtered through your philosophy of 'strict materialism' and hostility toward the Baha'i Faith. Also a misunderstanding of the different aspect of the Independent Investigation of knowledge and Truth. In this principle you also have the right to search and explore the alternatives of belief and knowledge without preconceived beliefs, nor pressure and persecution of your choices. It has important applications in science. In some it may be a path to certitude.


The "philosophy of strict materialism"? You've changed from being filtered through, to the philosophy of. It must be nice to just make-up words on the go. Do these collection of words mean "rational sense". If they do, then yes. But you should also include "intellectual honesty", and, "I don't know". to your religious vocabulary. As to being hostile towards your belief, I'm positive that this is just a matter of wishful thinking. No rational thinker would give your particular faith, any more attention than any other faith. But if you want to think that by attacking your irrational beliefs, it will somehow give credence to your belief, and become a test of your faith, then be my guest. We all simply begin, live, and die like all other living things. All these events have already happened in the future. You just haven't caught up to it yet. What you think or believe about what will happen, no amount of independent investigation of knowledge and truth, will ever change future events. We can't have the effects before the causes. Why not simply accept just how precious life really is, and understand and accept what the limitations are? Life does not need any supernatural intervention, to have worth.

True knowledge is based on facts an evidence, not faith. There are no important science applications, or paths to certitude, without facts, data, observations, or objective evidence. Maybe you can demonstrate what this important application to science is? I didn't think so.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The "philosophy of strict materialism"? You've changed from being filtered through, to the philosophy of. It must be nice to just make-up words on the go. Do these collection of words mean "rational sense". If they do, then yes. But you should also include "intellectual honesty", and, "I don't know". to your religious vocabulary. As to being hostile towards your belief, I'm positive that this is just a matter of wishful thinking. No rational thinker would give your particular faith, any more attention than any other faith. But if you want to think that by attacking your irrational beliefs, it will somehow give credence to your belief, and become a test of your faith, then be my guest. We all simply begin, live, and die like all other living things. All these events have already happened in the future. You just haven't caught up to it yet. What you think or believe about what will happen, no amount of independent investigation of knowledge and truth, can ever change the future events. We can't have the effects before the causes. Why not simply accept just how precious life really is, and understand and accept what the limitations are? Life does not need any supernatural intervention, to have worth.

True knowledge is based on facts an evidence, not faith. There are no important science applications, or paths to certitude, without facts, data, observations, or objective evidence. Maybe you can demonstrate what this important application to science is? I didn't think so.

. . . which was filtered through your philosophy of 'strict materialism' and hostility toward the Baha'i Faith. Also a misunderstanding of the different aspect of the Independent Investigation of knowledge and Truth. In this principle you also have the right to search and explore the alternatives of belief and knowledge without preconceived beliefs, nor pressure and persecution of your choices. It has important applications in science. In some it may be a path to certitude.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
If you had read and understood my post, you would have realized that my comment was not based on any materialistic perspective, it was based on my interactions with Bahais.

. . . which was filtered through your philosophy of 'strict materialism' and hostility toward the Baha'i Faith.

Ahh, "filtered through (my) philosophy of 'strict materialism' and hostility toward the Baha'i Faith." Well, I suppose we all filter everything through the filter of our accumulated knowledge. If we didn't, we would have to carefully evaluate the same thing we have carefully evaluated many times in the past. That wouldn't work very well. We'd never have time to learn anything new.

Are you going to try to tell us that you do not filter everything through your own philosophical outlook which, at this stage, is strongly influenced by your Baha'i Faith?

I don't have much hostility toward the Baha'i Faith. If anything, I get annoyed with people who try to make forum discussions by repeating the same little smidgen over and over and over. It just shows that they have run out of anything new to say.


Also a misunderstanding of the different aspect of the Independent Investigation of knowledge and Truth.

What "Independent Investigation of knowledge and Truth"? I haven't seen that demonstrated by any member of Bahai.


In this principle you also have the right to search and explore the alternatives of belief and knowledge without preconceived beliefs, nor pressure and persecution of your choices.

The "pressure and persecution of (my) choices"? What in the world are you referring to? Perhaps you feel you are under the pressure of persecution if you were to question your Bahai religion. Rest assured I feel no such pressure and persecution.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Ahh, "filtered through (my) philosophy of 'strict materialism' and hostility toward the Baha'i Faith."

Yes.

I have shown no hostility toward atheism as @Truly Enlightened and you have when the Baha'i Faith is not even remotely related to the thread subject. In fact as per the subject of the thread I have supported that atheism is consistent with science, and the reference cited at the beginning of the thread was bull hockey..

The "pressure and persecution of (my) choices"? What in the world are you referring to? Perhaps you feel you are under the pressure of persecution if you were to question your Bahai religion. Rest assured I feel no such pressure and persecution.

You're fortunate you do not live in a time and place where this common.
 
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Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
. . . which was filtered through your philosophy of 'strict materialism' and hostility toward the Baha'i Faith. Also a misunderstanding of the different aspect of the Independent Investigation of knowledge and Truth. In this principle you also have the right to search and explore the alternatives of belief and knowledge without preconceived beliefs, nor pressure and persecution of your choices. It has important applications in science. In some it may be a path to certitude.


At least we can all see what happens, when you have nothing left to contribute to the debate, to save face. Especially when your reality is filtered through a philosophy of strict non-materialism, and hostility and resentment towards Atheists, rational skeptics and realists. Also, through a misunderstanding of what an independent investigation for truth and knowledge actually mean. If all you have to offer is empty assertions based on your own alternative beliefs, please expect to be challenged by preconceived scientific understandings, and be pressured to produce facts and evidence to support that belief. This is how science works. It weeds out personal beliefs, and replaces them with rational objective beliefs. If you can't defend your choice, then simply don't make it. There are many, many other threads/topics on this forum, where facts and evidence have no importance at all. Maybe you might feel more at home on one of these threads?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Yes.

I have shown no hostility toward atheism as @Truly Enlightened and you have when the Baha'i Faith is not even remotely related to the thread subject.

No hostility?

to satisfy your demand for only believing in a materialist view,

It is your conclusion framed and justified in your strict materialist view

Which is a strict materialistic view.

The demand to justify a non-materialistic view with materialistic facts and evidence is indeed a strict materialist view.
From your perspective of a strict materialist I can see that you have this view.

Again . . by definition:"The demand to justify a non-materialistic view with materialistic facts and evidence is indeed a strict materialist view."

. which was filtered through your philosophy of 'strict materialism'

which was filtered through your philosophy of 'strict materialism'

Boringly, repetatively hostile.
Until this thread, you were the most reasonable of the Bahai posters.



I wrote:
The "pressure and persecution of (my) choices"? What in the world are you referring to? Perhaps you feel you are under the pressure of persecution if you were to question your Bahai religion. Rest assured I feel no such pressure and persecution.
You responded:
You're fortunate you do not live in a time and place where this common.
If that's not something that's common here and now, why did you bring it up?
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
Of course the atheist has evidence, reason, and purpose in not accepting the ancient myths of religion.
Ancient religious mythology is not God. So, rejecting ancient religious mythology as being ancient religious mythology and not God is ... well .... stupid.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
No hostility?

Yes, hostility

Boringly, repetatively hostile.
Until this thread, you were the most reasonable of the Bahai posters.

This thread had nothing to do with the Baha'i Faith and I did not bring the subject up.


I wrote:
The "pressure and persecution of (my) choices"? What in the world are you referring to? Perhaps you feel you are under the pressure of persecution if you were to question your Bahai religion. Rest assured I feel no such pressure and persecution.
You responded:

If that's not something that's common here and now, why did you bring it up?

I did not originally bring the subject up of the Baha'i Faith.
 
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