The Qur'an: Intentions vs. Effects

[icehorse]

How many inaccurate misleading statements do I need to find in the document of 500 in order to show that it is propaganda?

Well I looked through the first 30 or so entries and it wasn't until the one you mentioned - the thirty-something-th - that I found an error. And again, my argument is not BASED on the list, it is SUPPORTED by the list. The list is - at worst - largely accurate, because as I scan it, I'm reminded of many passages that I read.

 

[dybmh]

Well I looked through the first 30 or so entries and it wasn't until the one you mentioned - the thirty-something-th - that I found an error. And again, my argument is not BASED on the list, it is SUPPORTED by the list. The list is - at worst - largely accurate, because as I scan it, I'm reminded of many passages that I read.

So, if I find errors in the first 30, what does that mean?

 

[ManSinha]

Do you want to the long answer or the short answer?

The short answer will do

 

[icehorse]

So, if I find errors in the first 30, what does that mean?

Well IMO scholarly interpretations go only so far. MOST people just read the book, and more or less take it at face value. Occam's razor.

After that, it's stats and cognitive science. As I said, the list supports my reading of the book, and it doesn't matter what the real count is, 200, 300, 400, 500 - in terms of how such repetition impacts the reader, it doesn't matter much.

 

[dybmh]

The short answer will do

Deception ( being sneaky ) isn't always bad; Sometimes, the truth hurts.

From my perspective God ( Allah ) is the best deceiver; the material world is an illusion.

People who believe that Jesus was raised from the dead take offense specifically because the Qur'an is explicitly claiming Jesus' resurrection was intentional deception by Allah.

 

[dybmh]

Well IMO scholarly interpretations go only so far. MOST people just read the book, and more or less take it at face value. Occam's razor.

After that, it's stats and cognitive science. As I said, the list supports my reading of the book, and it doesn't matter what the real count is, 200, 300, 400, 500 - in terms of how such repetition impacts the reader, it doesn't matter much.

So the accuracy of the 500+ document "doesn't matter much"?

Please be fair.

The document you provided is weak evidence for your claim.

As I said, I read the book. I did not compile the 500+ occurrences, but when I saw the list of 500, it largely seemed consistent with my parsimonious reading of the book.

parsimonious adjective
par·si·mo·ni·ous | \ ˌpär-sə-ˈmō-nē-əs \
Definition of parsimonious
1 : exhibiting or marked by parsimony
especially : frugal to the point of stinginess
2 : sparing; restrained

hyperlink >>> merriam-webster.com - Definition of PARSIMONIOUS

Your reading of the Qur'an was parsimonious? You skimmed through it?

Please be fair.

It sounds like you had a negative view of Islam before you read the Qur'an. Then you skimmed through it. This "parsimonious" reading confirmed your preconceived notions. And then you accepted the 500+ document even though it is based on inaccurate information ( The Skeptic's Annotated Qur'an ). And whether or not the document is accurate or not, you do not question its conclusion.

I'm sorry. I don't think you are being fair in your assessment of the Qur'an.

 

[dybmh]

@icehorse ,

I'm sorry my friend. I do believe this is a text book case of confirmation bias.

"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses."

hyperlink >>> wikipedia.org - Confirmation bias

 

[LuisDantas]

@dybmh @Niblo

Warner is an idiot from NC..

Dr. Bill Warner, Author - Political Islam
https://www.politicalislam.com/author
Dr. Bill Warner is a prominent and highly respected expert on Political Islam. He holds a PhD in Physics & Applied Mathematics from North Carolina State University. He has held positions as a research scientist, business owner and University Professor. Dr. Warner has had a life-long interest in religion and its effects on history.

This bird is just a garden variety opportunist.

Actually, he sources his claims rather excellently and makes some fine points that are nearly impossible to rebuff.

His main "flaw" is that he knows what he is talking about, and that goes against the grain of the good if misguided intentions of many people.

 

[sooda]

Actually, he sources his claims rather excellently and makes some fine points that are nearly impossible to rebuff.

His main "flaw" is that he knows what he is talking about, and that goes against the grain of the good if misguided intentions of many people.

No.. He doesn't know what he's talking about. He's just a hatemonger who has found an audience of people that want hate and misinformation.

 

[ManSinha]

Deception ( being sneaky ) isn't always bad; Sometimes, the truth hurts.

From my perspective God ( Allah ) is the best deceiver; the material world is an illusion.

People who believe that Jesus was raised from the dead take offense specifically because the Qur'an is explicitly claiming Jesus' resurrection was intentional deception by Allah.

That is an interesting perspective - if you ever have time read up on Samkhya philosophy - it states that even god cannot contravene the laws of nature - ergo neither a virgin birth nor resurrection is possible - now Samkhya being established before the advent of christianity- does not specifically state that - it just discounts miracles - period. I am doing the extrapolating as do a lot of those that follow that school of thought.

 

[LuisDantas]

No.. He doesn't know what he's talking about. He's just a hatemonger who has found an audience of people that want hate and misinformation.

Uh, that is as unfounded, prejudiced and misguided an accusation as they come, sooda, and I hope that you come to accept that. It would be a very serious mistake not to.

 

[icehorse]

So the accuracy of the 500+ document "doesn't matter much"?

Please be fair.

The document you provided is weak evidence for your claim.

hyperlink >>> merriam-webster.com - Definition of PARSIMONIOUS

Your reading of the Qur'an was parsimonious? You skimmed through it?

Please be fair.

It sounds like you had a negative view of Islam before you read the Qur'an. Then you skimmed through it. This "parsimonious" reading confirmed your preconceived notions. And then you accepted the 500+ document even though it is based on inaccurate information ( The Skeptic's Annotated Qur'an ). And whether or not the document is accurate or not, you do not question its conclusion.

I'm sorry. I don't think you are being fair in your assessment of the Qur'an.

By parsimonious, I mean Occam's razor. The most natural, uncomplicated interpretation.

And sorry dude - I did not skim the book. I spent weeks reading it - if you have good arguments, you can stop with the slurs - got it?

 

[LuisDantas]

@icehorse ,

I'm sorry my friend. I do believe this is a text book case of confirmation bias.

If only you were right about that. We all would be so much better for that.

This video may be enlightening on this matter. To a limited extent it mirrors my own findings.

 

[sooda]

That is an interesting perspective - if you ever have time read up on Samkhya philosophy - it states that even god cannot contravene the laws of nature - ergo neither a virgin birth nor resurrection is possible - now Samkhya being established before the advent of christianity- does not specifically state that - it just discounts miracles - period. I am doing the extrapolating as do a lot of those that follow that school of thought.

I agree that God would not, could not, contravene His own laws of nature.

 

[sooda]

Uh, that is as unfounded, prejudiced and misguided an accusation as they come, sooda, and I hope that you come to accept that. It would be a very serious mistake not to.

Warren is an opportunist.. making a buck.. He has never studied Islam nor lived anywhere in the ME.. I have. He's a liar.

 

[LuisDantas]

Warren is an opportunist.. making a buck.. He has never studied Islam nor lived anywhere in the ME.. I have. He's a liar.

Nope. You, however, are lying about him right now, consciously or otherwise.

I trust that you do not mean to, and for that reason I tell you that directly so that you may learn better.

 

[sooda]

Nope. You, however, are lying about him right now, consciously or otherwise.

I trust that you do not mean to, and for that reason I tell you that directly so that you may learn better.

I have listened to him. He doesn't know a thing about Islam.

 

[dybmh]

@LuisDantas ,

I appreciate your contribution. I will watch the video. I am not an expert on the Qur'an, politics, or virtually anything.

Admittedly I have a very very pro-Islam bias; however, I am trying to stay objective. I am learning about the Qur'an in real-time as I am working on this thread.

This is why I appreciate your feedback and any information you or others would like to share.

 

[dybmh]

By parsimonious, I mean Occam's razor. The most natural, uncomplicated interpretation.

And sorry dude - I did not skim the book. I spent weeks reading it - if you have good arguments, you can stop with the slurs - got it?

Wait, what? Which slurs? Please, help me understand.

I did not mean to offend you.

I am sorry.

 

[dybmh]

@icehorse,

Most respectfully, please consider the Google Definition of Slur.

Slur ( noun ):

an insinuation or allegation about someone that is likely to insult them or damage their reputation.
"the comments were a slur on the staff"
synonyms: insult, slight, slander, slanderous statement, libel, libelous statement, misrepresentation, defamation, aspersion, calumny, smear

Please, I did not think anything I said was likely to insult, offend, or damage your reputation.

Also, nothing I said was misrepresenting, defamatory, or a "smear".

Bias is natural, normal, and common to everyone.

I think earlier in this thread you told us that you are a technical proof reader. So I did not expect you to be insulted by reminding you about your own bias.