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The Qur'an: Intentions vs. Effects
- Thread starter dybmh
- Start date
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I think it's relevant. But more importantly I'll review your replies and look for your unanswered question. I didn't intend to ignore you my friend.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I can only answer for myself, and my personal opinion is: Abrahamic Monotheism isn't for everyone. Many people seem to do perfectly fine without it.
That said, for me, my opinion is that if God operated in the open and prevented people from acting immorally in God's name it would restrict freewill.
ManSinha
Well-Known Member
You cannot have it both ways can you?
On one hand you say "X DISapproves of Y" BUT again and again - there is NO consequence for Y indulged in by X - it is not Ph.D level philosophy. It is a simple question that admittedly may require one to do some deep soul searching and personal questioning of belief.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
You cannot have it both ways can you?
On one hand you say "X DISapproves of Y" BUT again and again - there is NO consequence for Y indulged in by X - it is not Ph.D level philosophy. It is a simple question that admittedly may require one to do some deep soul searching and personal questioning of belief.
I'm sorry. Can u please replace X and Y with something specific?
ManSinha
Well-Known Member
"Allah" disapproves killing of "innocents"
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The consequence that is described In the Qur'an verses on Hellfire if taken literally occur after the end of mortal life.
If read figuratively, the consequences may occur inside a person's heart, soul, or mind.
It's also possible that the consequences may occur in subtle ways on the material world. But, it isn't something obvious and provable by science.
If the consequences were obviously divine retribution coming from Allah, that would be a very very different from the world we live in now. This would represent definitive proof that Allah is real and the Allah is judging all of us and will take punitive action against transgressors. Those who do not believe would be deemed insane. That is not the world we live in. I am grateful for this.
Also, please consider what it would be like if Allah's vengeance was executed by acts of nature. A person might mistake a normal weather event as a guilty judgement from Allah. Practical Example: A home is destroyed by a mudslide after a multiple days of heavy rain. If Allah operates on the open using weather events to execute judgement, then the neighbors might mistakenly wonder, "Were the inhabitants of that home idol worshippers?"
Something else to consider: Angels are included in Abrahamic Monotheism. Angels are beings that obey the will of God in perfection. In theory if Allah wanted us be perfect, Allah would have made us Angels not Humans.
In light of what I said above, I hope that you understand my position even if you do not agree.
What is my position on the Qur'an?
1) It's intention is to discourage vigilante.
2) It's effects do not always match this intention.
3) I think the majority of Muslims do not believe in vigilante justice.
4) Muslims take an active role correcting those who encourage vigilante justice.
In fact this demonstrated in my post you labeled irrelevant. Also, @Niblo demonstrated this by correcting the abridged verses from the Qur'an, providing multiple detailed evidence refuting the use of Qur'an 2:194 as justification for "eye for an eye" forms of vigilante justice.
Why do people sincerely worship and believe in Allah without scientific proof? It's the same reason any other people believe in any of the other religions. They believe it because it makes sense to them.
For Muslims, the idea that their lives are the result of random events doesn't make sense to them. For them, it feels good and proper that there is one divine source for all of creation. In addition this one source has a plan for all of creation, is merciful, just, and all powerful. For Muslims who sincerely believe that Muhammad is a prophet, reading the Qur'an and the accounts of those who spent time with him while he was on earth are a deep meaningful endeavor.
Does that make sense?
ManSinha, most respectfully, i feel like i understand your position on Islam. To me, your opinion of the Islam is based on the crimes against individuals and and humanity that are perpetrated in the name of Allah. For the purpose of this thread, those are the effects.
However, I am still missing a clear understanding of your opinion on the intention of the Qur'an.
2 Questions:
Even if you do not believe in Allah, based on the evidence in this thread ( or other evidence you wish to bring ), what do u think were the intentions of the Qur'an?
Based on the inaccurate evidence provided by @icehorse, and by @Samantha Rinne , can you understand why Muslims feel like the targets of propaganda?
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Wait what? What inaccurate evidence have I provided?
ManSinha
Well-Known Member
You are close to being an apologetic in my eyes - if the All Powerful one had intended to stop crimes being committed in His name - there are a number of ways He could do that that even I as a lowly human can think of;
1. Change the mind of the offender
2. Cause a personal natural calamity like a stroke or heart attack
It does not have to be a natural disaster
Listen - you say Allah does not interfere - why then do his followers take it upon themselves to "know" what is right and force their ways upon innocent others?
All you can say to that is - It is un Islamic
Great - so then the "true" followers of Islam should stop it - every endeavor needs money and if the funding sources are cut off terrorism withers away. No gun dealer will give you a gun or grenade for free.
So - not only the crimes do not cease but those that sponsor them continue to fund them. Are they un Islamic too? What is being done by Allah or the devout Muslim community about them?
The Qu'ran has two parts as has been described elsewhere - an initial peaceful one and then a more violent one that is supposed to abrogate the prior in what areas appear to be in conflict
My view of the Qu'ran is thus:
Where is preaches brotherhood, equality of genders (we can have a whole separate discussion about this) and care for the downtrodden - it is as good as perhaps any other scripture
Where it purports to set up laws - that is where the relevance is becoming less and less as society evolves - now some say that the law giving comes from the Hadith and not the Qu'ran per se - whatever it may be - but that part of the scripture which some people think gives them the right to judge other non Muslim individuals needs to go. Unless that happens - and I do not see that happening anytime soon - Islam always will stand in danger of being vilified for the actions of a few that may not be exactly following its tenets.
While you are at it - take a look at this collection - I am going to examine those claims for myself - but it would be interesting to get your and @Niblo's perspective on what is claimed.
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dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Thank you for your thoughtful reply.
I will review the collection you provided and report back.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Please refer to the quotes below.
The Qur'an does not "Instruct Muslims to despise non-Muslims".
The document you provided to support this claim is inaccurate evidence because it misquotes, miss-translates, and omits from the verses of the Qur'an it is claiming to quote.
Where we left the conversation was that perhaps the list of 500 is wrong by 3%. I'm happy to grant you that. In fact, as I believe I already said, for the sake of discussion, I'd be happy to grant you that the list is 50% wrong. (It's not, but let's say it is.)
If the Quran actually only instructs Muslims to despise non-Muslims ONLY 250 times, the end effects are the same.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The document you are using as support is quoting the "Skeptic's Annotated Qur'an". Do you think there are any Muslims who consider "The Skeptics Annotated Qur'an" authoritative in any way? It omits anything positive (often directly from the middle of the verse), and adds words like "doom" where they do not occur in any other translation.
I showed you 1 example of how the document you provided was deeply flawed. Not just a semantic fault, but how it reversed the intended message.
Please, is it fair to consider the document you cited as credible? Is it fair to label it accurate or use it as supporting evidence?
After I showed you 1 example of how your evidence was deeply flawed and inaccurate, your 500+ count was cut in half. How many more faults like this one do I need to find in order to show that the document you provided is propaganda?
In addition, new sronger evidence has been brought that shows the Qur'an does not "Instruct Muslims to despise non-Muslims".
So it goes beyond showing that the source you have provided is false propaganda against Muslims and the book they believe is Holy. We now have stronger evidence opposing your claim.
What has been established since you and I paused the discussion is this:
It is incorrect to assume the Qur'an intended all non-Muslims are non-Believers; however, @the_fischer_king reports that many Muslims read it that way. This is an example of how the Qur'an's intended message being skewed results in a negative effect.
Taking this scholarly approach to the Arabic word, kafir, disqualifies your source from supporting your claim.
In order for your source to support your claim ( ignoring all other inaccuracies) you would need to adjust your claim to the following:
"The Qur'an instructs a Muslim to despise a kafir"
However even this claim is not supported by your source. Because on review of the verses it cites as evidence, there are errors of omission. The good parts that encourage mercy, limits, and fairness are omitted.
If you add this fault of omission to the previous false equivalency ( non-Muslims are not automatically non-Believers ), you would need to adjust your claim to the following in order for it to be true:
"Some parts of the Qur'an instructs a Muslim to despise a kafir"
Another thing that is obvious from reading the Qur'an verses cited in your evidence is that these Qur'an verses never instruct a Muslim to despise anyone. The Qur'an describes Allah in way that despises a kafir. It does not instruct Muslims to despise.
Adding this fault to the others, in order for your claim to be true it would need to be adjusted even more as follows:
"Some parts of the Qur'an describe Allah in a way which despises a kafir."
Please consider: the statement above is much much more fair towards the Qur'an than your original claim and that ignores context.
A fair and balanced assessment of the verses in the Qur'an includes context. Ignoring the context is not fair. Every single one of the 500+ verses your source cites has context. Each and every one. If they didn't the Qur'an would not be a book. If each verse were intended to be followed independent of all the others it would be a list. The Qur'an is not a list. It is a book. That means each verse is connected to each other, regardless of how distant they are chronologically in the book. The Qur'an is a book; each verse has context by definition.
Because of this in order for your source to support your claim, the claim would need to be adjusted as follows:
"Some parts of the Qur'an describe Allah in a way that despises a kafir if taken out of context."
Please, most respectfully consider the original false claim with the adjusted claim which is true. Looking at them both side by side, can you understand why Muslims may feel like they are targets of unfair propaganda?
Here is your original false claim:
"The Qur'an instructs Muslims to describe non-Muslims."
Here is the adjusted claim which is true:
"Some parts of the Qur'an describe Allah in a way that despises a Kafir if taken out of context."
To review the changes that need to be made to your claim in order for your source to be used to support it:
"Some parts" - this takes into account errors of omission.
"describes Allah in a way that" - your source does not say "Muslims are Instructed".
"kafir" - The word non-Believer is not equivilant to non-Muslim
"if taken out of context" - this was added because the Qur'an is a book not a list.
This is why I said you provided inaccurate evidence.
This is why I am saying your claim is false.
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dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Note from the OP:
Apologies for the excessive size of the image I attached in Post #241. I was away from my PC for several days, and I was working off my phone.
I was not intending for the image to be so obese.
I'll be more careful in resizing images like this in the future.
Thank you,
Apologies for the excessive size of the image I attached in Post #241. I was away from my PC for several days, and I was working off my phone.
I was not intending for the image to be so obese.
I'll be more careful in resizing images like this in the future.
Thank you,
As I said, I read the book. I did not compile the 500+ occurrences, but when I saw the list of 500, it largely seemed consistent with my parsimonious reading of the book.
So my argument is supported by the other document of 500, but it is NOT based on the document. AND, the document doesn't have to be perfect to demonstrate the larger point.
As I pointed out earlier, even if it's 50% wrong (which it's not), it still supports the broader point.
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sooda
Veteran Member
Where do you come up with this stuff? Have you ever read the Koran?
Yes I have, and here is my context:
- I trust that the translators are experts who know more than anyone on this forum.
- I take it as a premise that Muslims hold the book to be perfect and timeless.
- I read the book parsimoniously, the way 99% of the non-scholars read it.
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dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
How many inaccurate misleading statements do I need to find in the document of 500 in order to show that it is propaganda?
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Do you want to the long answer or the short answer?