Please remember that I got my impressions of the Quran by spending weeks reading it. I did not expect the book to criticize non-Muslims so relentlessly and as I was reading, I didn't make a list. But when I saw the webpage with the list, it seemed consistent with what I'd experienced.
As for my impressions of Allah, I have to trust my own reading of the material and the Islamic scholars who spent their lives studying Islam and creating the translation. For example, the book says over and over and over again that Allah is merciful, correct? But such mercy is not demonstrated in the book. So it seems like an empty claim. When I read that Allah made non-believers to be blind to his truth and then that he intends to burn them for eternity, and put new skins on them so that he can burn them again, that does not seem merciful, that seems like the exact opposite of merciful. In other words the book is saying that Allah made non-believers on purpose, and that it's his intention to torture them. Not a nice guy, I'd say. You can take me as an example. I did not have a choice where I was born and which schools I went to. It is simply not in my nature to believe in gods. If I claimed to believe in gods, I would be lying. And according to religious people, their god would know that I'm lying. So as near as I can tell, the religions that claim I'm going to hell are religions whose gods are cruel, vindictive, psychopaths. They made me so that they could torture me.
No thanks.
Thank you for your thoughtful and thought provoking reply.
You are making some very good points.
My Core Values / Core Values that we Share:
I don't think that anyone should be forced to say something that they don't believe. I don't send my kids to religious school. We do not enforce any religion on them. They know I believe in God, and they know that it's important to me. But that's where it ends. My wife and I focus on raising them as Good People... and if they choose to follow any religion, I hope I can help them to follow it sincerely without adopting any of the dominant behaviors that you and I agree are morally wrong and destructive. That is a core value that I think you and I share.
You are not a Kafir / That was not intended by the Qur'an:
Regarding the burning, and re-burning.... I would need either specific verses to work with, or I would need have the entire Qur'an memorized to speak about it authoritatively.
But I do want to speak about it in the same manner you did because you raise a very interesting point regarding intention vs. effect.
They made me so that they could torture me.
To me, this is a statement of intention. I do not think that is what is intended by the verses in the Qur'an that speak about non-believers. They were intended, I think, to discourage tribal vigilante justice. I think the verses you are remembering were intended to keep the peace.
And, I would be remiss not to point this out:
It sounds to me you are not a "Kafir" or a "disbeliever" ( as it is often translated ) using the scholarly theological definition below:
disbelievers:
- insincere in their life
- deliberately reject the truth despite knowing
- refused to question what they were taught
- blind followers
hyperlink >>> abdullahalandalusi.com - What is a Kafir?
If I look at what you said above... you are the opposite of a Kafir.
You can take me as an example. I did not have a choice where I was born and which schools I went to. It is simply not in my nature to believe in gods. If I claimed to believe in gods, I would be lying. And according to religious people, their god would know that I'm lying.
- You didn't get a choice where you went to school.
- But you questioned what you were taught.
- And you felt uncomfortable lying about believing in God.
- You recognized the hypocrisy.
That is not a Kafir. That is the opposite of a Kafir.
A Kafir is someone who denies the truth. You do not deny the truth.
In fact, I think we agree, that sincerity is very important. I think we agree on that core value.
In your signature it says: "The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name. - Confucius"
This is a statement that demonstrates the importance of seeing things as they really are.
Someone who believes the beginning of Wisdom is to call things by their proper name, also holds sincerity as a core value.
If we zoom out, globally, politically, ideologically, how many of the problems of humanity are caused by people in denial of reality? How many of the problems of humanity are caused by people who do not call things by their proper names?
Isn't that exactly what I am doing by pointing out the theological scholarly definition of Kafir? Aren't I calling things by their proper name? It's a matter of precision. Being precise is a core value that you and I share based on your signature.
So If I look at your words,
They made me so that they could torture me.
The first thing that comes to mind is:
The Qur'an is not talking about sending you, IceHorse, to hellfire when it speaks about a Kafir, a non-believer.
So what is a possible real world, human, intention of putting the hellfire verses in the Qur'an?
I think a way for an anti-theist to look at it is that it is intended to discourage tribal vigilante justice.
Hypocrisy...
Hypocrites who deny reality, claim they are elite when they are not. People who do not admit their own faults and accuse others of faults they themselves possess... That is a Hypocrite.
Hypocrisy makes people angry. Always has... always will.
Anger is the evolutionary preparation for conflict. Physical combat or a war of words, either way. Anger is a path towards violence. Not only that, but... in Judaism, Anger equals Idolatry.
If the Qur'an helps to relieve Anger by providing strict justice to Hypocrites, the worst sort of Kafir, then it does 2 things. It prevents violence and it helps to prevent internal Idolatry in the form of anger.
This is a way for a non-religious person to look at the intention of the Qur'an's verses about a Kafir and HellFire:
1) A Kafir is someone who denies reality and does not question what they are taught.
2) Anger leads to violence and Idolatry. Harsh Justice relieves anger, frustration, and a desire to take matters into ones own hands.
So that's my opinion on the intention. The Qur'an did not intend for you, IceHorse to burn in HellFire or to be tortured.
Mismatch between Intention and Effect:
Regardless of the Intention, What are the effects of the verses that speak about a Kafir and HellFire?
Well...
When you read it, it has a negative effect? I read it differently, but for you and many others, it makes you feel like the Qur'an is calling you a Kafir who is supposed to be tortured.
Also it has a demonstrated negative effect globally, because many Muslims, according to the poll you provided, have a negative view of people who don't believe in God. The poll uses the word "Immoral". To be fair, I want to look deeply at these numbers. the questions asked, and not cherry pick specific results...
But...
It appears on the surface that there is a negative opinion among many Muslims, too many to ignore, that "It is necessary for a person to believe in God to be Moral."
I don't agree with this statement. But many Muslims who were asked in 2013 by Pew agreed with this statement.
I think it's a big problem.
What can be done to offset some of the negative effects?
If we agree on Core Values, and we agree that there is a negative effect, what do we disagree about?
Does the Qur'an intend for non-Muslims to be tortured?
A scholarly objective reading of the verses, and treating the Qur'an as a book and not a list indicates: no. The Qur'an is not the cause.
However, from your parsimonious reading of it, applying Occam's Razor to the text, you say that it is at least a strong influencing factor that is resulting in the negative effect.
And...
If I understand
@The_Fisher_King's information, Fisher_King agrees with you.
I'm quoting from memory; I think Fisher_King said that most Muslims equate a Kafir as all non-Muslims. And further, I think, he said that it is natural for the verses in the Qur'an to lead Muslims to a negative opinion on non-Muslims.
So.
What can be done?
One thing that I think is a good idea is to promote the scholarly definition of a Kafir. I think it's important for non-Muslims and Muslims to have this scholarly definition of a Kafir in their toolbox so that they do not assume that the Qur'an's intention is to torture people like you, IceHorse.
Promoting this idea is not a silver bullet cure-all antidote for the problem. But it is something. And it works on multiple levels.
If non-Muslims speak kindly about the Qur'an and speak respectfully about Muslims, and do not make them out to be evil, I think it can whittle away at the negative view of non-Muslims especially among young people.
Really this is very similar to the the idea that
@InvestigateTruth presented. And I still think it's a brilliant idea. I agree it's a little risky, and unlikely to be adopted.. but in principle. I think it's a brilliant idea.
InvestigateTruth's idea was: "Anytime a terrorist attack is perpetrated by Muslims on the news, the Qur'an's verses that prohibit terrorism should be provided"
( again, I am quoting from memory )
Another thing we can do?
American and Israeli foreign policies need to actually reflect "Peace and Fairness". The current policies are easy to be described as Hypocrisy by the enemies of America and Israel. Dominant militant policies are, in effect, arming the enemy. The dominant and aggressive policies are helping recruit and develop a base of support for dangerous terrorists.
Another thing we can do?
This is a toughie. But it's a good point made by
@ManSinha. Peaceful wealthy people need to be encouraged to invest their money into building a support system for peace. That means giving away water, food, shelter, health care, and education for free to people who need it. I am not sure how to encourage this. But it is something that can be done to diminish recruitment and reduce the number of desperate ignorant people who fall prey to radicalization on both sides: militant right wing extremist terrorism and Islamic terrorism. Also, health care will help reduce terrorism by providing treatment to the criminally insane.
Muslim nations in the Middle East are some of the wealthiest nations in the world. I think they should step up in the name of a peaceful world put their money into developing a support system for peace. And that would include funding a peace keeping force to stop all forms of coerced conversions.
If it is not legal by the overwhelming majority Muslim legal authorities, then it is incumbent on wealthy Muslims to do everything in their power to end the abhorrent murders of innocents.
Qur'an 5:32
And whoever saves a life - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely.
hyperlink >>> quran.com - Surah Al-Ma'idah [5:32]
Overly Optimistic?
Yes. Guilty as charged. I am a Terminal Optimist, and I hope I stay that way till my last mortal breath.
