Kilk1
Member
Hello! This is my first thread on the site. Many say that the strongest evidence for Calvinism from the Bible is Romans 8:28 through 9:24. Having studied the passage from multiple sides, I'm not sure Calvinism is actually taught here. While 8:29-30 mentions that there are people God foreknew and that these people are predestined, etc., it doesn't reveal the means by which some are foreknown and others aren't. If the context does, it could be that God simply foreknows "those who love God" (8:28, NKJV)--allowing free will to be a factor.
Paul does mention in 9:10-12 how Jacob was chosen over Esau before they were born, not "having done any good or evil." However, to show this, he references Genesis 25:23 and Malachi 1:2-3, passages that speak of Jacob's nation (Israel) versus Esau's nation (Edom), not salvation/condemnation of the individuals. Furthermore, wouldn't this have meant that even doing "evil" (v. 11) is irrelevant to being condemned? The only application Paul draws from this is that God's purpose is "not of works but of Him who calls." Works are later contrasted with faith (vv. 30-32).
And although Paul says God "has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens" (v. 18), his example is Pharaoh (v. 17). To my knowledge, almost no one claims that God's hardening was to make him wicked "but," as Albert Barnes states, "to leave a sinner to his own course, and to place him in circumstances where the character will be more and more developed."
Finally, and perhaps most crucially, Paul addresses the following question: If God uses sinners to accomplish His will, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will" (Rom. 9:19)? Paul answers these objecting question with rhetorical questions of his own. First, he asks, "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?'" (v. 20). This sounds similar to Old Testament verses that Jews would accept (Isa. 29:16; 45:9).
But Paul continues the analogy in verse 21: "Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" Thinking of God as potter and man as clay could be interpreted to mean He makes some of us to be good and others to be sinful. It especially could sound this way when He mentions making "one vessel for honor and another for dishonor. "
Do we follow or reject God based on how He fashions us, or does He fashion us based on whether we follow or reject God? Paul asks us a question: "What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction..." (Rom. 9:22)? But God wouldn't be longsuffering toward people if He never intended for them to be saved, would He? This suggests He does desire the vessels of wrath to repent and be saved!
Furthermore, by mentioning honorable and dishonorable vessels, Paul seems to be alluding to Jeremiah 18:1-10. Here, God discusses how a potter begins "making something at the wheel" (v. 3). However, the vessel ends up getting "marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make" (v. 4). Notice that while the potter was going to make one thing, the marring of the vessel led him to remake it "into another vessel." In the same way, God says that if He decrees to destroy a nation (i.e., make them into a vessel of dishonor) but they repent, then He'll change His plans for them (vv. 5-8). The same works in reverse as well (vv. 9-10).
When we go to the passages Paul quotes from and alludes to, does it actually seem that this passage from Romans goes against the Calvinistic belief that man lacks free will to repent and follow God? Does God actually fashion us for honor or dishonor if we serve him, rather than it being that we repent and serve Him based on how He fashions us? Please let me know if my line of thought is flawed here. Thanks!
Paul does mention in 9:10-12 how Jacob was chosen over Esau before they were born, not "having done any good or evil." However, to show this, he references Genesis 25:23 and Malachi 1:2-3, passages that speak of Jacob's nation (Israel) versus Esau's nation (Edom), not salvation/condemnation of the individuals. Furthermore, wouldn't this have meant that even doing "evil" (v. 11) is irrelevant to being condemned? The only application Paul draws from this is that God's purpose is "not of works but of Him who calls." Works are later contrasted with faith (vv. 30-32).
And although Paul says God "has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens" (v. 18), his example is Pharaoh (v. 17). To my knowledge, almost no one claims that God's hardening was to make him wicked "but," as Albert Barnes states, "to leave a sinner to his own course, and to place him in circumstances where the character will be more and more developed."
Finally, and perhaps most crucially, Paul addresses the following question: If God uses sinners to accomplish His will, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will" (Rom. 9:19)? Paul answers these objecting question with rhetorical questions of his own. First, he asks, "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?'" (v. 20). This sounds similar to Old Testament verses that Jews would accept (Isa. 29:16; 45:9).
But Paul continues the analogy in verse 21: "Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" Thinking of God as potter and man as clay could be interpreted to mean He makes some of us to be good and others to be sinful. It especially could sound this way when He mentions making "one vessel for honor and another for dishonor. "
Do we follow or reject God based on how He fashions us, or does He fashion us based on whether we follow or reject God? Paul asks us a question: "What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction..." (Rom. 9:22)? But God wouldn't be longsuffering toward people if He never intended for them to be saved, would He? This suggests He does desire the vessels of wrath to repent and be saved!
Furthermore, by mentioning honorable and dishonorable vessels, Paul seems to be alluding to Jeremiah 18:1-10. Here, God discusses how a potter begins "making something at the wheel" (v. 3). However, the vessel ends up getting "marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make" (v. 4). Notice that while the potter was going to make one thing, the marring of the vessel led him to remake it "into another vessel." In the same way, God says that if He decrees to destroy a nation (i.e., make them into a vessel of dishonor) but they repent, then He'll change His plans for them (vv. 5-8). The same works in reverse as well (vv. 9-10).
When we go to the passages Paul quotes from and alludes to, does it actually seem that this passage from Romans goes against the Calvinistic belief that man lacks free will to repent and follow God? Does God actually fashion us for honor or dishonor if we serve him, rather than it being that we repent and serve Him based on how He fashions us? Please let me know if my line of thought is flawed here. Thanks!