sooda
Veteran Member
The answer may be sometimes you have free will, sometimes you don't.. God decided to hate Esau before he was born.
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Calvinism's strongest Biblical text
The answer may be sometimes you have free will, sometimes you don't.. God decided to hate Esau before he was born.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Ya, that I can hypothetically accept in the area of logic, but Calvin still felt that one was predestined even prior to birth.
Also, his belief that our number one action should be to praise God is misdirected, imo, as the Sermon On the Mount, for example, spends most of its time citing things we are or are not to do-- the "law of love". .
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe the Bible does have an instance of reincarnation and certainly this verse says a person can pay for his sin in the next life.
sooda
Veteran Member
According to Jehovahs Witnesses belief in reincarnation is based on the teaching of the immortality of the soul.* However, the Bible teaches that the soul is the entire person and is thus mortal.
If they broke bread Thursday evening, and if Pesach began Friday sundown, then the teaching that Jesus rose from the dead on the third day would be correct. IOW, he died on Friday and rose Sunday morning = 3 days. Viola!
Muffled
Jesus in me
@Kilk1.....no matter where we look in scripture God always allows free will. That is not to say that our choices are without consequences.
If we had no free will, then the command not to eat of the TKGE in Eden would have been meaningless and the consequences unjust.
When we choose the action, we choose God's reaction.
Welcome to RF BTW.
I believe of course God chose the right person to be Eve. She had a witness in Adam but even that wasn't enough.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe soul is often used interchangeably for spirit even though it is body and spirit.
sooda
Veteran Member
Is it or isn't it?
sooda
Veteran Member
The soul and the spirit are not the same. Even though our Bible uses the words soul and spirit interchangeably, there is a very distinct difference that we cannot ignore. These passages in God's Word that make a very clear distinction between the soul and the spirit:
Hebrews 4:12, "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
1 Thessalonians 5:23, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
So what is the difference between the soul and the spirit?
We are a spirit being, we live in a body and we possess a soul. The real person inside of us is our spirit. Our soul consists of our mind, will and emotions. Our bodies are obviously what we live in while we are here on earth. How did demonic spirits vex and possess (control) people in the Bible? It was through their souls (minds, as in mental illness and insanity), and their bodies (as in the woman who had the spirit of infirmity).
Example of physical (bodily) demonic affliction: Luke 13:11, "And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself."
Example of mental (soul) demonic affliction: Matthew 17:15,18, "Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatic, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water... And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour."
Our spirits ARE born again!
The moment we accept Christ, our spirits become brand new. We are a completely new person, we are born of God, and we are made alive with God:
continued
The Soul Versus The Spirit
Hebrews 4:12, "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
1 Thessalonians 5:23, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
So what is the difference between the soul and the spirit?
We are a spirit being, we live in a body and we possess a soul. The real person inside of us is our spirit. Our soul consists of our mind, will and emotions. Our bodies are obviously what we live in while we are here on earth. How did demonic spirits vex and possess (control) people in the Bible? It was through their souls (minds, as in mental illness and insanity), and their bodies (as in the woman who had the spirit of infirmity).
Example of physical (bodily) demonic affliction: Luke 13:11, "And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself."
Example of mental (soul) demonic affliction: Matthew 17:15,18, "Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatic, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water... And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour."
Our spirits ARE born again!
The moment we accept Christ, our spirits become brand new. We are a completely new person, we are born of God, and we are made alive with God:
continued
The Soul Versus The Spirit
InChrist
Free4ever
It's just not proper biblical hermeneutics to take a single verse in isolation. Remember that Romans 9:13 is a quote from Malachi so it must be read and understood in that context. And it is helpful to look up the meaning of the words used there in Hebrew.
sooda
Veteran Member
Kilk1
Member
The article you referenced seems to agree somewhat with what I've been saying : "When studying the Bible, it is critically important to always study the context of a particular Bible verse or passage. In these instances, the prophet Malachi and the apostle Paul are using the name 'Esau' to refer to the Edomites, who were the descendants of Esau."
Kilk1
Member
Thanks, glad to be here!@Kilk1.....no matter where we look in scripture God always allows free will. That is not to say that our choices are without consequences.
If we had no free will, then the command not to eat of the TKGE in Eden would have been meaningless and the consequences unjust.
When we choose the action, we choose God's reaction.
Welcome to RF BTW.
Kilk1
Member
The passage doesn't mention Rebecca trying to "disinherit" Esau. I guess you could say that trying to strip him of his birthright is disinheriting in a sense. Regardless, if both of the Scriptures Paul quotes from in Rom. 9:10-12 both refer to their nations, how do you know "Esau I hated" means "Esau I condemned to hell"?
sooda
Veteran Member
Did I say condemn him to hell?
In any case, its an ugly story.. and not particularly moral.
sooda
Veteran Member
Herod's father was an Idumean and his mother was a Nabatean Arab.
InChrist
Free4ever
Did you notice that the article you linked to says..."So, considering the context, God loving Jacob and hating Esau has nothing to do with the human emotions of love and hate."
Why did God love Jacob and hate Esau (Malachi 1:3; Romans 9:13)?
You misunderstand the verse "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom:9:13). This is not "written" in Genesis but in Malachi:1:2-3 : "I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau...." God is not referring to Jacob and Esau as individuals (as Calvinists erroneously insist) but to the descendants of Esau and Jacob: Edom and Israel. God hated Edom because of the way they treated Israel (which He knew would be the case before Esau's birth), and He continued to love Israel, in spite of all, because of His irrevocable promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Genesis:25:21-23
confirms Malachi one. God tells Rebekah, pregnant with twins: "Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger." Clearly this is not about Jacob and Esau as individuals, but the nations and peoples descended from them! Otherwise, it would have been a false prophecy. Esau never served Jacob, but the nation Edom became subject to the people of Israel. The Bible does not teach that God predestined Jacob for heaven and Esau for hell! That Calvinist doctrine is not only wrong but maligns God's character! You were not cursed of God from eternity past! Question: (Combination of several): The Lord frequently singles people out for severe treatment....I sometimes wonder why I keep trying when all I get is cursing from the Lord whom I have tried to please for so many years.
sooda
Veteran Member
Parse it any way you like.. Its a shameful story.
Kilk1
Member
I guess I'm confused. Are you a Calvinist? If so, do you believe a person who faithfully follows God does so because God made them into a vessel for honor, not that God makes a person into a vessel for honor because they faithfully follow Him? (For what I'm referencing, see Romans 9:18-24.)
sooda
Veteran Member
No I'm not a Calvinist.. I think many stories in the Bible are immoral... and either God orders it or doesn't mind it.
Look how many epic tales begin with slaughtering infants.
I wonder if God had anything to do with any of the stories they wrote down.