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Calvinism's strongest Biblical text

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
No I'm not a Calvinist.. I think many stories in the Bible are immoral... and either God orders it or doesn't mind it.

Look how many epic tales begin with slaughtering infants.

I wonder if God had anything to do with any of the stories they wrote down.

2 Timothy 3:16-17....."All scripture is inspired of God"....do you doubt this?

How does one purport to be a Christian and then call God's actions "immoral"? The "stories" in the Bible are not just stories...every one of them tells us something about God in the context in which they occur.

Infants are dependant on their parents, so why leave the children when taking their parents? Would you prefer a generation of orphans? Is death a permanent state from God's perspective?

The thing you seem to dismiss is God's right as Creator to give or take life as he deems necessary in any given situation. Just because you do not understand his reasons, does not mean that he doesn't have any.

The Creator can restore life as easily as waking someone sleeping. Remember the resurrection of Lazarus? Where did Jesus say Lazarus was before he raised him? (John 11:11-14)

Included in his promises for the future is the resurrection of the dead. (John 5:28-29)
 

sooda

Veteran Member
2 Timothy 3:16-17....."All scripture is inspired of God"....do you doubt this?

How does one purport to be a Christian and then call God's actions "immoral"? The "stories" in the Bible are not just stories...every one of them tells us something about God in the context in which they occur.

Infants are dependant on their parents, so why leave the children when taking their parents? Would you prefer a generation of orphans? Is death a permanent state from God's perspective?

The thing you seem to dismiss is God's right as Creator to give or take life as he deems necessary in any given situation. Just because you do not understand his reasons, does not mean that he doesn't have any.

The Creator can restore life as easily as waking someone sleeping. Remember the resurrection of Lazarus? Where did Jesus say Lazarus was before he raised him? (John 11:11-14)

Included in his promises for the future is the resurrection of the dead. (John 5:28-29)

The stories are horrible.. Do you think they are god breathed because the Hebrews told you they are? Really? The OT isn't about God.. Its about the Jews. Their history, identity, laws and purification rituals, their enemies..

Do you think Herod's fictional slaughter of the babies was moral? How about the slaughter of Egypt's firstborn? Thousands murdered in Sinai.. It just goes on and on.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
The stories are horrible.. Do you think they are god breathed because the Hebrews told you they are? Really? The OT isn't about God.. Its about the Jews. Their history, identity, laws and purification rituals, their enemies..

Do you think Herod's fictional slaughter of the babies was moral? How about the slaughter of Egypt's firstborn? Thousands murdered in Sinai.. It just goes on and on.
The Bible has stories which honestly show human sinfulness and immorality for what it is, unlike any other religious writing, BTW. These are not included as validation of the accounts or so that we are to think that everything revealed in moral.

I am also interested in why you call yourself a "Christian" if you don't believe any of it is about God or His revelation. A majority of your posts seem to be about discounting, finding fault, or mocking the biblical scriptures. Jesus Christ believed the OT accounts, referring to them often. Christians are those who believe in and follow Christ, not oppose Him.
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
The Bible has stories which honestly show human sinfulness and immorality for what it is, unlike any other religious writing, BTW. These are not included as validation of the accounts or so that we are to think that everything revealed in moral.

I am also interested in why you call yourself a "Christian" if you don't believe any of it is about God or His revelation. A majority of your posts seem to be about discounting, finding fault, or mocking the biblical scriptures. Jesus Christ believed the OT accounts, referring to often. Christians are those who believe in and follow Christ, not oppose Him.

We can follow Christ or what we know of him without believing all that horrible stuff written by men and attributed to God.

You don't have to believe regurgitated Babylonian myths to be a Christian.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The stories are horrible.. Do you think they are god breathed because the Hebrews told you they are? Really? The OT isn't about God.. Its about the Jews. Their history, identity, laws and purification rituals, their enemies..

Of course it's about the Jews.....do you understand why? What do the Jews have to do with God's purpose for this earth? Why is their history, out of all earths populations, important? Why does God's relationship with Israel take up so much of the Bible?

Do you think Herod's fictional slaughter of the babies was moral?

It was foretold. Do you think the magi who alerted Herod to Jesu's birth were sent by God? I assure you that they were sent by God's arch enemy. Herod saw the newborn king as a threat to his own dynasty. The slaughter was not fictional. Satan was at the back of that.

It appears that you rely on historical accounts to form your opinions rather than the Bible. If you know anything about historical accuracy, you have to look no further than how white settlement in foreign nations was carried out. The other side has a very different story to tell. History is often whitewashed to paint the aggressor as the hero.

What about Egyptian history? They never recorded their defeats...only their victories. The refreshing thing about the Bible is that it doesn't sanitize anything. It simply tells it like it was.
Since God is the Sovereign Maker and Ruler of this earth, regardless of what humans think, all are under his dominion. If humans disobey him, they will feel his displeasure...sooner or later.

How about the slaughter of Egypt's firstborn? Thousands murdered in Sinai.. It just goes on and on.

Have you read the accounts with an open mind or was your mind already closed due to your pre-conceived moral disgust?

Do you understand what the 10 plagues were all about? Every single plague was designed to humiliate one of Egypt's gods. In every event, Pharaoh was given the opportunity to end it. He agreed, and when when the plagued stopped, he reneged. This occurred 10 times, not because God wanted to cause the Pharaoh further grief, but to show up his stubborn disposition and to show that his own gods were failing him and for the sake of his own people, he needed to do as he was asked. Not until the last plague...the death of Egypt's firstborn, was Pharaoh brought to his knees. He was Egypt's primary deity and his firstborn was to be his successor. Even after he had released Israel from their slavery, he again changed his mind and went after them, losing his own life and those of his military men.

So if you want to blame someone for Egypt's plagues, put the blame on the right person.

As Creator, God gives life and he can take it away at his own discression. He does not need our permission or approval to carry out his will and fulfill his purpose. We don't dictate to God what his morality should be.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Of course it's about the Jews.....do you understand why? What do the Jews have to do with God's purpose for this earth? Why is their history, out of all earths populations, important? Why does God's relationship with Israel take up so much of the Bible?



It was foretold. Do you think the magi who alerted Herod to Jesu's birth were sent by God? I assure you that they were sent by God's arch enemy. Herod saw the newborn king as a threat to his own dynasty. The slaughter was not fictional. Satan was at the back of that.

It appears that you rely on historical accounts to form your opinions rather than the Bible. If you know anything about historical accuracy, you have to look no further than how white settlement in foreign nations was carried out. The other side has a very different story to tell. History is often whitewashed to paint the aggressor as the hero.

What about Egyptian history? They never recorded their defeats...only their victories. The refreshing thing about the Bible is that it doesn't sanitize anything. It simply tells it like it was.
Since God is the Sovereign Maker and Ruler of this earth, regardless of what humans think, all are under his dominion. If humans disobey him, they will feel his displeasure...sooner or later.



Have you read the accounts with an open mind or was your mind already closed due to your pre-conceived moral disgust?

Do you understand what the 10 plagues were all about? Every single plague was designed to humiliate one of Egypt's gods. In every event, Pharaoh was given the opportunity to end it. He agreed, and when when the plagued stopped, he reneged. This occurred 10 times, not because God wanted to cause the Pharaoh further grief, but to show up his stubborn disposition and to show that his own gods were failing him and for the sake of his own people, he needed to do as he was asked. Not until the last plague...the death of Egypt's firstborn, was Pharaoh brought to his knees. He was Egypt's primary deity and his firstborn was to be his successor. Even after he had released Israel from their slavery, he again changed his mind and went after them, losing his own life and those of his military men.

So if you want to blame someone for Egypt's plagues, put the blame on the right person.

As Creator, God gives life and he can take it away at his own discression. He does not need our permission or approval to carry out his will and fulfill his purpose. We don't dictate to God what his morality should be.

It never happened. The Exodus is a story of deliverance, but its not history.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
It never happened. The Exodus is a story of deliverance, but its not history.

Why, because you choose to believe it never happened? You don't have much faith in God, do you? You seem to see him with human limitations....he doesn't have any.
 

Kilk1

Member
No I'm not a Calvinist.. I think many stories in the Bible are immoral... and either God orders it or doesn't mind it.

Look how many epic tales begin with slaughtering infants.

I wonder if God had anything to do with any of the stories they wrote down.
Okay, then that was the source of my confusion. I'm looking for Calvinists who believe in the inspiration of the Bible to discuss whether Romans 9 teaches their position.

PS: Since you sound open to blaming God for the slaughtering of infants, how do you reconcile that with listing your religion as "Christian"?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Okay, then that was the source of my confusion. I'm looking for Calvinists who believe in the inspiration of the Bible to discuss whether Romans 9 teaches their position.

PS: Since you sound open to blaming God for the slaughtering of infants, how do you reconcile that with listing your religion as "Christian"?

Literalism is NOT required of Christians.
 

Kilk1

Member
I don't feel that anyone has argued Calvinism from Romans 9 here. Does God make a Christian into a "vessel for honor" (Romans 9:21) because he serves God in faith (the freewill position), or does he serve God in faith because God made him into a "vessel for honor" (the Calvinistic position)?

The freewill position is supported because 1) God is "longsuffering" toward "the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" (Romans 9:22), suggesting He wants them to repent, and 2) Paul's discussion of honorable/dishonorable vessels seems to be alluding to Jeremiah 18:1-10, which teaches that God's decrees can change if we change. If my trail of thought contains any errors, let me know.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Of course it's about the Jews.....do you understand why? What do the Jews have to do with God's purpose for this earth? Why is their history, out of all earths populations, important? Why does God's relationship with Israel take up so much of the Bible?



It was foretold. Do you think the magi who alerted Herod to Jesu's birth were sent by God? I assure you that they were sent by God's arch enemy. Herod saw the newborn king as a threat to his own dynasty. The slaughter was not fictional. Satan was at the back of that.

It appears that you rely on historical accounts to form your opinions rather than the Bible. If you know anything about historical accuracy, you have to look no further than how white settlement in foreign nations was carried out. The other side has a very different story to tell. History is often whitewashed to paint the aggressor as the hero.

What about Egyptian history? They never recorded their defeats...only their victories. The refreshing thing about the Bible is that it doesn't sanitize anything. It simply tells it like it was.
Since God is the Sovereign Maker and Ruler of this earth, regardless of what humans think, all are under his dominion. If humans disobey him, they will feel his displeasure...sooner or later.



Have you read the accounts with an open mind or was your mind already closed due to your pre-conceived moral disgust?

Do you understand what the 10 plagues were all about? Every single plague was designed to humiliate one of Egypt's gods. In every event, Pharaoh was given the opportunity to end it. He agreed, and when when the plagued stopped, he reneged. This occurred 10 times, not because God wanted to cause the Pharaoh further grief, but to show up his stubborn disposition and to show that his own gods were failing him and for the sake of his own people, he needed to do as he was asked. Not until the last plague...the death of Egypt's firstborn, was Pharaoh brought to his knees. He was Egypt's primary deity and his firstborn was to be his successor. Even after he had released Israel from their slavery, he again changed his mind and went after them, losing his own life and those of his military men.

So if you want to blame someone for Egypt's plagues, put the blame on the right person.

As Creator, God gives life and he can take it away at his own discression. He does not need our permission or approval to carry out his will and fulfill his purpose. We don't dictate to God what his morality should be.

"Do you think the magi who alerted Herod to Jesu's birth were sent by God? I assure you that they were sent by God's arch enemy. Herod saw the newborn king as a threat to his own dynasty. The slaughter was not fictional. Satan was at the back of that."

You have a serious problem with reading comprehension. The Magi protected Jesus..

There was NO census.. and there was NO slaughter of babies.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
This is way off topic, but deserves an answer....

Deeje said:
"Do you think the magi who alerted Herod to Jesus' birth were sent by God? I assure you that they were sent by God's arch enemy. Herod saw the newborn king as a threat to his own dynasty. The slaughter was not fictional. Satan was at the back of that."

You have a serious problem with reading comprehension. The Magi protected Jesus..
Read the account. The magi were Babylonian astrologers whose custom was to bring gifts to royal children. They came to honor a new King, not to worship a human god.

The "star" that guided them, led them to Jerusalem and alerted King Herod. After he had been alerted he tried to trick them into revealing the child's whereabouts. The star then led them to the very house (not the stable) where Jesus was living with his parents. Since Herod had ascertained the place from the Jewish leaders and the time of the star's appearance from the astrologers, he had all the male infants 2 years of age and under put to death.

Jewish shepherds out in the fields at night were given the news of Jesus birth and they journeyed to Bethlehem to see him. The magi did not visit the infant Jesus until he was about 2 years old and living in a house. We know that the magi did not visit the stable because they brought expensive gifts. When Jesus was presented at the temple, his parents brought the offering of the poor...two turtledoves.

According to Matthew 2:17-18, there was a prophecy about 'Rachel’s weeping for her children' which was fulfilled when Herod directed the killing of all male children two years of age and younger in and around Bethlehem. (Jeremiah 31:15) If it was not relevant then why is this even mentioned?

Only after they were warned not to go back to Herod did the magi return to Babylon via another route. Seeing that he had been duped by them, Herod then sought to destroy the child by the only means he knew....mass murder of all those who might pose a threat to his own dynasty.

It was God who saved Jesus by giving Joseph a warning in a dream to take him to Egypt.

Since it was Jewish children that he killed, don't expect to see it in the annals of history.

There was NO census.. and there was NO slaughter of babies.

Who says?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I don't feel that anyone has argued Calvinism from Romans 9 here. Does God make a Christian into a "vessel for honor" (Romans 9:21) because he serves God in faith (the freewill position), or does he serve God in faith because God made him into a "vessel for honor" (the Calvinistic position)?

I don't think the idea holds water from my understanding of scripture. It means that God has predetermined the outcome for every human before they have an opportunity to exercise the free will that the scenario in Eden confirms. If Adam and his wife were predetermined to sin, what was the point of the warning NOT to eat from the forbidden fruit? It would have been unjust to punish someone who was predestined to commit a capital crime....that scenario doesn't make sense.

The freewill position is supported because 1) God is "longsuffering" toward "the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" (Romans 9:22), suggesting He wants them to repent, and 2) Paul's discussion of honorable/dishonorable vessels seems to be alluding to Jeremiah 18:1-10, which teaches that God's decrees can change if we change. If my trail of thought contains any errors, let me know.

Yes...giving everyone the same opportunity to hear and act on the same message of their own free will, and to prove their loyalty to God under test, means that we can all change our life course, just like Paul did, with the right motivation. As Saul of Tarsus, Paul stood condemned as a murderer, but when given an opportunity to see the error of his ways, he changed his whole attitude and sought God's forgiveness with complete humility and repentance. His zeal for God's worship was admirable but totally misdirected.

We also remember Nineveh and God's decree that Jonah preached. When the Ninevites heard the message, they changed their ways and repented, and God withheld the destruction he had foretold for that city. Nothing is cast in concrete except God purpose, which never changes. Our part in his purpose is dependent on what we do as individuals to show God that we love him and the truth he teaches us by means of his son.
 

Kilk1

Member
I don't think the idea holds water from my understanding of scripture. It means that God has predetermined the outcome for every human before they have an opportunity to exercise the free will that the scenario in Eden confirms. If Adam and his wife were predetermined to sin, what was the point of the warning NOT to eat from the forbidden fruit? It would have been unjust to punish someone who was predestined to commit a capital crime....that scenario doesn't make sense.



Yes...giving everyone the same opportunity to hear and act on the same message of their own free will, and to prove their loyalty to God under test, means that we can all change our life course, just like Paul did, with the right motivation. As Saul of Tarsus, Paul stood condemned as a murderer, but when given an opportunity to see the error of his ways, he changed his whole attitude and sought God's forgiveness with complete humility and repentance. His zeal for God's worship was admirable but totally misdirected.

We also remember Nineveh and God's decree that Jonah preached. When the Ninevites heard the message, they changed their ways and repented, and God withheld the destruction he had foretold for that city. Nothing is cast in concrete except God purpose, which never changes. Our part in his purpose is dependent on what we do as individuals to show God that we love him and the truth he teaches us by means of his son.
Sorry for not replying earlier. Of course, I don't really have anything to object to here, lol. I'm hoping for someone who will argue the Calvinistic interpretation from Romans 9. Thanks for your input, though!
 

Kilk1

Member
Still, no one has answered. I hope Calvinists are finding this thread. I may have to make another.
Does God make a Christian into a "vessel for honor" (Romans 9:21) because he serves God in faith (the freewill position), or does he serve God in faith because God made him into a "vessel for honor" (which I believe is the Calvinistic position)?

The freewill position is supported because 1) God is "longsuffering" toward "the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" (Romans 9:22), suggesting He wants them to repent, and 2) Paul's discussion of honorable/dishonorable vessels seems to be alluding to Jeremiah 18:1-10, which teaches that God's decrees can change if we change. If my trail of thought contains any errors, let me know. Thanks!
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
The article you referenced seems to agree somewhat with what I've been saying : "When studying the Bible, it is critically important to always study the context of a particular Bible verse or passage. In these instances, the prophet Malachi and the apostle Paul are using the name 'Esau' to refer to the Edomites, who were the descendants of Esau."

I believe that makes more sense since God blessed Esau.
 
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