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Supporting Muslims as members of our communities

sooda

Veteran Member
I've studied three different translations of the Quran. It teaches prejudice and intolerance.

I think perhaps you have that filter.

Hebrew racism, the model for all other racisms, appears as an ideology of the extermination of different peoples.

"The Puritan settlers of America, when they hunted down the Indians to grab their lands, invoked Joshua and the 'sacred exterminations' of the Amalecites and the Philistines."

Source : Thomas Nelson, "The Puritans of Massachussets", Judaism, Vol XVI, no.2 1967

I - The Theological Myths of the Promised Land, chosen people, of Joshua and ethnic purification
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
This thread is about supporting the Muslim community in the aftermath of a calculated and target murder of 49 of their members while gathered in peace.
Yeah, none of us. Neither you, nor me; neither the Christians nor the Muslims. Middle East pumps loads of money to finance terrorist activities all over the world as does the Christian world for evangelist activities. Why can't we be satisfied by the numbers that we have and live in peace? Even your tears are fake, because you want to poach members from the Muslim community as from other communities as well. That precisely is the monotheist disease, the desire to dominate others. Will this be the last of devilish atrocities?
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
Yeah, none of us. Neither you, nor me; neither the Christians nor the Muslims. Middle East pumps loads of money to finance terrorist activities all over the world as does the Christian world. Why can't we be satisfied by the numbers that we have and live in peace? Even your tears are fake, because you want to poach members of the Muslim community as from the other communities as well. That precisely is the monotheist disease, the desire to dominate others. Will this be the last of devilish atrocities?

Well. NO.. The Arab world that has money invests it in education, healthcare, clean water, infrastructure and job creation. They are coming from behind and have a long way to go.
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
I wish harm to no one. I am sorry for everyone's losses in this truly tragic and horrific event.

That said, unreformed Islam is a truly horrible ideology. Whether wittingly or not, when Muslims enter non-Muslim communities, they are tacitly asking us to accept all the intolerance that comes with Islam. This is not acceptable.

Other religions have reformed. So must Islam.

I'm with everyone on this thread who is calling for love and peace. So it's hard to know what to do when confronted with an intolerant belief system. I do not think that pretending is the answer. So I do not believe we should tolerate intolerance. I think we must be honest about intolerant beliefs and do what we can to change the minds of people who believe intolerant things.

As for the details of how Islam is intolerant, I'd be happy to discuss that on a separate thread. What I will say however, is that I'm not talking about terrorism.

Come on, @icehorse. This isn't the time or place for this. It's rubbing salt in the wound.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
Come on, @icehorse. This isn't the time or place for this. It's rubbing salt in the wound.

When is the right time to discuss Islam and the effects it is having on modern society?

The media are demonising the internet over this. They do not want any free discussion about Islam and Islam certainly does not either.

Islam would like blasphemy laws to be reintroduced.

I would rather good things and bad things were said on open forums than behind closed doors.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Things have changed greatly since I was a kid. In the fifties, if a Black family moved in to the neighborhood, the white families started moving out. There were zero Black kids at the High School I went to, and that was in the late sixties. As you I'm sure know, at the start of the Rock and Roll Era, white singers covered songs that were performed and written by Blacks. But there was prejudices against Whites too. I was raised in LA. We thought we were better than whites from NY. And definitely better than the Whites from the South.

But I don't remember anybody worrying or caring about Muslims. Little did the average American know what was about to happen in the late 70's. In fact it seemed overnight that the Soviet Union was our enemy, then they dissolved and out of no where came Iran, Iraq, Libya and the others. We were led to believe all of them were evil and backwards, mostly because of their religion. In college is the first time I heard the other side of the story, that we wanted their oil and put in leaders that played along with us.

But money and politics play their part, and I think were at the beginning of creating a negative image of people that America saw as enemies. But religion did too. I never heard any religious person say any positive about Islam until I met Baha'is. I heard many Christian preachers say how Islam is a false religion and of the devil. That they were going to attempt to destroy Israel, then Jesus would intervene and destroy them. However, we heard that they felt the same way about us... that America was the Great Satan.

Yes, America is getting much more integrated and accepting of others. But, there's still way too much distrust and anger toward people that are different... and that's with each other here in America. Sure, we had a Black President, but unarmed Blacks are getting shot by police. So now what about Muslims? Our latest President had a solution. He tried to ban all Muslims from entering America. But, it's not only Muslims. He believes that people are invading our country from across the southern border. While kids in the inner cities are shooting each other and mass shooters have shot up schools, movie theaters, and music concerts. So things aren't that good. We seem to be afraid of ourselves too. And then we wonder, what went wrong?

You know what is wrong, pretty much everything. And that is the strongest and most positive thing about the Baha'i Faith. Differences in the color of skin, cultural differences and religion, the differences between the very rich and the very poor... and maybe, the going along with the status quo by the middle class. Because, for them, things aren't that bad. For a long time, things weren't that bad for the average American, the average White American. But things are changing fast. The world demands equality, fairness, and justice. But in the fight, I'm afraid there will always be those few that think they need to use violence. And, unfortunately, they can come from any color or ideology.

Although I don't live in America much of the music and movies I enjoy is American. There used to be a great deal of American bias in our news. Now we have other news outlets from other countries and different perspectives. Your experience of American culture does resonate and sound very familiar. As a nation, New Zealand distanced ourselves from America and America from us when we banned the nuclear weapons in 1987. That was a huge moment for New Zealand to say we are no longer going to tolerate the proliferation of nuclear weapons.

In 1987 Labour passed the New Zealand Nuclear Free Zone, Disarmament, and Arms Control Act. In a largely symbolic response, the United States Congress retaliated with the Broomfield Act, downgrading New Zealand’s status from ally to friend. David Lange stated that if the security alliance was the price New Zealand must pay to remain nuclear-free, ‘it is the price we are prepared to pay’. In 1989, 52% of New Zealanders indicated that they would rather break defence ties than admit nuclear-armed ships. By 1990 even National had signed up to anti-nuclearism.

Nuclear-free legislation - Nuclear-free New Zealand | NZHistory, New Zealand history online

In regards race relations the proportion of our population of indigineous peoples the Maori is currently at about 16%. This is much higher than the proportion of native Americans in the USA. The basis of British Europeans colonialism was actually a treaty signed by the British Crown and several hundred Maori chiefs in 1840. This was the Treaty of Waitangi and a founding document.

Treaty of Waitangi - Wikipedia

The relationship with Maori has always been important and so too has our race relations. That doesn't mean there hasn't been a history of racism. It just wasn't on a par with the USA. One school I attended at high school had just 33% of its population with European ancestory. We've always been a melting pot of different cultures. We've a reputation for being a peaceful nation that's welcoming of other cultures for decades. 3 years ago it was the citizens of my city that asked our government to have Syrian refugees here. We wanted to asssit with the refugee crisis. Muslims had felt very safe and welcome in New Zealand up until a few days ago.

The massacre of innocent men, women and children confronts us with the magnitude of prejudice and ignorance in regards religion generally and Islam in particular. Combined with religious prejudice is racism and nationalism. As strenuous and concerted efforts have been made to demonise Islam a new and arguably greater demon has emerged...that of far right extremism. Its no new thing and its not the Jews anymore but the Muslims. That is not to deny Islamic culture hasn't given birth to religious extremism. We must remember most Muslims are not extreme anymore than most Europeans are not white supremacists. It is now a delicate matter as extemism and hatred has given rise to murderous acts and terrorism. Words matter bcause if even the small prejudices go unchecked these attitudes can be cancerous. Its not the time to blame the victim here and victim blaming can be symptomatic of the underlying malaise.

So what do we do about racism and prejudice towards Muslims, Arabs and Middle Easterners? The answer in the first instance is sobering. We must first address prejudice within ourselves before tackling the problems in others. Who of us can claim to have truly freed ourselves?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Well. NO.. The Arab world that has money invests it in education, healthcare, clean water, infrastructure and job creation. They are coming from behind and have a long way to go.
Sure, they (many, after being buffeted by terror) are doing that and I appreciate that. I wish them the best. But even then, they are also funding terror and conversion. Kashmiri Muslims in UK among those from many other countries, fund terror in Indian Kashmir. The result is loss and hardship for their own. Conversion always increases conflict. I have nothing against people joining another religion in their own choice, but aggressive proselytization also has its own effects. Terror produced refugees and refugees, knowingly or unknowingly, have produced tensions.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Sure, they (many, after being buffeted by terror) are doing that and I appreciate that. I wish them the best. But even then, they are also funding terror and conversion. Kashmiri Muslims in UK among those from many other countries, fund terror in Indian Kashmir. The result is loss and hardship for their own. Conversion always increases conflict. I have nothing against people joining another religion in their own choice, but aggressive proselytization also has its own effects. Terror produced refugees and refugees, knowingly or unknowingly, have produced tensions.

The Gulf States have ALWAYS invested in healthcare, education etc.... Look at their histories of five year plans.

Refugees come out of the domino effect of invading Iraq, creating ISIS, installing Maliki, making Iran ascendant.

Same thing with driving al Qaeda out of Iran into Yemen and Sudan.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
The vast majority of Moslem people who flee from Islamic regimes that promote radical Islam flee for their own safety, and to better their personal circumstance. In that fleeing, they leave radical Islam and everything it represents behind. It is no different than Haitians fleeing the Papa Doc dictatorship, or the Irish fleeing the potato famine. It's about survival, and not much else. If a child escapes a family that beats her, so we then think that she holds the same values as the parents who beat her?

In the news it indicated the 50 NZ mosque deaths, collectively, were from 17 different countries. What bound them was the mosque community, a support system in a very different and open culture than from which they came. There was no binding because of the radical Islam they escaped from. Even those who may have held remnants of radicalism would soon be turned over to a more moderate view.

To make this vast generalisation about thousands of people seems like folly to me.
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
When is the right time to discuss Islam and the effects it is having on modern society?

The media are demonising the internet over this. They do not want any free discussion about Islam and Islam certainly does not either.

Islam would like blasphemy laws to be reintroduced.

I would rather good things and bad things were said on open forums than behind closed doors.

Do you have Beit Din in your country? Has it impacted your rights or your laws?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
The vast majority of Moslem people who flee from Islamic regimes that promote radical Islam flee for their own safety, ..
Radical Islam or Radical Christianity (that you see in Religious Forums. Others too, who quote extensively from their books - the word of God or his prophet/messenger/manifestation), that is the cause of all sorrow in the world. Why does God send his word? We would have been better without it.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Radical Islam or Radical Christianity (that you see in Religious Forums. Others too, who quote extensively from their books - the word of God or his prophet/messenger/manifestation), that is the cause of all sorrow in the world. Why does God send his word? We would have been better without it.

Thank God most Muslims are not radical...
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Radical Islam or Radical Christianity (that you see in Religious Forums. Others too, who quote extensively from their books - the word of God or his prophet/messenger/manifestation), that is the cause of all sorrow in the world. Why does God send his word? We would have been better without it.

You conveniently forgot to mention radical Hindus, which can be just as much of a problem.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Do you have Beit Din in your country? Has it impacted your rights or your laws?
Yes, we have a Beit Din. It is known as the Supreme Court of India. Then we have the Constitution of our country and our democratic institutions. Those give us our law and rights and protect us.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Yes, we have a Beit Din. It is known as the Supreme Court of India. Then we have the Constitution of our country and our democratic institutions. Those give us our law and rights and protect us.

We've had Biet Din in the US for 250 years and its NOT a problem.
 
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