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Supporting Muslims as members of our communities

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
In America, we were told we were the "good" guys. What we do is what's right. So when we sent in our planes and ships to blow people up, we were trying to stop evil. We were trying to stop the people from over there. The people that were a different color, a different religion, that had different politics and wanted to change our way of life. But how "good" were we? Sometimes, not so good.

I don't want to become involved in American politics. What I do supprt is the increasing development of international cooperation. America have traditionally been a strong supporter of international law, the United Nations and various international agencies. There has been a history of undermining the same with the use of veto power but often America has also provided a voice of reason and the courage to address injustices in the world. Clearly there has been major policy and attitiude changes with the current administration. Looking back to Middle Eastern politics the decision to invade Iraq based on WOMD was based on misinformation.

The political games still go on. White collar criminals still try and lie and cheat their way into wealth and power. There are so many ways that the dominate group can manipulate the world to keep themselves at the top. But the world is changing. The dominate group's power is fading. What is their plan? To still demonize the other people.

This raises many issues.

1/ The break down of moral standards affect every strata of society, but often so called white collar criminals cause more damage and are less likely to get caught.

2/ The current world economic system appears unsustainable, unjust and is a likely driver of terrorism as well as undermining democratic processes. There is an urgent need for reform, particularly at the international level.

But here in the U.S. it's all people of color. We are told all brown people coming from Central America are evil and trying to invade America, bringing their drugs and gangs. We are told that Muslims want to bring Sharia Law into our country and take over. This attitude starts at the top and trickles down to some young kid with a automatic weapon that thinks he's doing what's right... killing innocent people that he believes are evil. But, he's not right and I wouldn't call him being far to the right, but far wrong. Good luck to you Adrian trying to bring peace and understanding to the people in your city.

In my city most people want peace and understanding and are working positivity towards it. I'll try to do my part for sure.

What are you doing to bring peace to America if you don't mind me asking?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Many will be aware of a large number of Muslims being shot in mosques last Friday in New Zealand. Muslims in two mosques located within Christchurch were targeted. They were unarmed and gathered together peacefully for worship. 49 were killed and over 40 were injured from gunshot wounds. The attack had been planned and perpetrated by a 28 year old Australian National who had set up base in the city I live. He actually lived just down the road from me. There appears to have been at least two other accomplices and police are continuing their investigations.

I am in shock as are many in my community. Yesterday community leaders met together with Muslim leaders to discuss how we can support our Muslim community. I was invited as I’m currently the chairman of our cities interfaith council a role which I feel largely unworthy to fulfill.

Many Muslims were feeling unsafe in our communities. The police investigation is ongoing and it is unclear if all perpetrators and accomplices are in custody. In the interim there are to be no meetings in mosques for safety reasons. As an outpouring of support many are approaching Muslim neighbours and associates with gifts and expressions of love and support. Most New Zealanders are appalled by the actions of these far right terrorists. At the meeting yesterday I mostly listened to the concerns of others as we collectively tried to find our way forward.

I’m wanting to discuss and reflect on the journey towards pulling together as a multicultural and multifaith community to support our brothers and sisters in the wake of an act of terrorism and hate. I also wanted to share my personal journey through this horrific time. Thanks for taking the time to read my OP and consider a topic that really affects each and everyone of us.

As it happened: 49 killed, 48 injured in Christchurch terror attack

I don't envy you. Being called to be a spokesperson isn't really what you signed up for. But strong men step up in such circumstances. Best wishes with whatever comes up.

A few observations ... If I divide my life into 2 sections, the first part was a single ethnic whitewashed town where racism was common. Not rampant, but common. Small single ethnic communities don't have much beyond that. They don't have any real true interracial, inter-religious experiences to have their mind's changed, to have their views altered.

But now I'm in a very multi-ethnic, multi-race community. The schools reflect it. No longer are they reciting the Lord's prayer in the morning, and telling their racial or homophobic uninformed jokes at recess, that they heard from Dad or Mom. Kids are put in groups, intergendered, interracial, and mixed. The students lose the concept of race, and see each other as individuals. Whether or not little Ibrahim works well in groups, is friendly, or is difficult ... that's what counts. Race, gender, and all that other stuff ... they're hardly even aware of it.

Globalisation is making that shift. Economic necessity, emigration, immigration, it's all starting to mix everyone, and frankly, it's wonderful. I think we can rest assured that those non-Muslim kids in Christchurch schools who really feel their classmate's pain won't walk anywhere near to the extremist roads.

So anything interfaith councils can do, anything schools can do, or anything individuals can do ... it's great. Social change takes time, but I'm an optimist. This mixing is going to happen, along with the resultant tolerance for humanity, whether the extremists like it or not.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
In NZ the Muslims men, women and children were attending Friday prayers and were massacred. From that how are we now focusing on them as intolerant people when it was a callous Australian who was intolerant?

Isn’t it the anti-Muslim attitude in the world that needs reforming?

This is a delicate, complex situation. i would ask you to read and consider my words carefully. Do not misquote me, please.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't envy you. Being called to be a spokesperson isn't really what you signed up for. But strong men step up in such circumstances. Best wishes with whatever comes up.

A few observations ... If I divide my life into 2 sections, the first part was a single ethnic whitewashed town where racism was common. Not rampant, but common. Small single ethnic communities don't have much beyond that. They don't have any real true interracial, inter-religious experiences to have their mind's changed, to have their views altered.

But now I'm in a very multi-ethnic, multi-race community. The schools reflect it. No longer are they reciting the Lord's prayer in the morning, and telling their racial or homophobic uninformed jokes at recess, that they heard from Dad or Mom. Kids are put in groups, intergendered, interracial, and mixed. The students lose the concept of race, and see each other as individuals. Whether or not little Ibrahim works well in groups, is friendly, or is difficult ... that's what counts. Race, gender, and all that other stuff ... they're hardly even aware of it.

Globalisation is making that shift. Economic necessity, emigration, immigration, it's all starting to mix everyone, and frankly, it's wonderful. I think we can rest assured that those non-Muslim kids in Christchurch schools who really feel their classmate's pain won't walk anywhere near to the extremist roads.

So anything interfaith councils can do, anything schools can do, or anything individuals can do ... it's great. Social change takes time, but I'm an optimist. This mixing is going to happen, along with the resultant tolerance for humanity, whether the extremists like it or not.

Yeah, being a spokesman on such occasions is not my scene. I was elected chairman at the beginning of this month so reluctantly accepted as no one else was nominated.

I imagine as a white Canadian, converting to Hinduism that is predominantly Indian in ehtnic make up and culture is a huge jump. You didn't become a Christian but ended up a Hindu instead. That is a cultural change of epic proportions and was no doubt very challenging at first.

Globalisation as you say has us set on a course where there is really no turnng back the clock. We could fight it or embrace it. I've always enjoyed diversity and I believe we'll get through this.

I've just learned our local mosque will be reopening soon so will be heading off to join in solidarity with the Muslim community.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I wish harm to no one. I am sorry for everyone's losses in this truly tragic and horrific event.

That said, unreformed Islam is a truly horrible ideology. Whether wittingly or not, when Muslims enter non-Muslim communities, they are tacitly asking us to accept all the intolerance that comes with Islam. This is not acceptable.

Other religions have reformed. So must Islam.
Blaming the victim is an old and sad thing to do.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I’m wanting to discuss and reflect on the journey towards pulling together as a multicultural and multifaith community to support our brothers and sisters in the wake of an act of terrorism and hate.

That is a wonderful sentiment.

What are you doing to bring peace to America if you don't mind me asking?

The sentiment has been expressed in different words at different times. This is one:

Capturex.PNG
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Many will be aware of a large number of Muslims being shot in mosques last Friday in New Zealand. Muslims in two mosques located within Christchurch were targeted. They were unarmed and gathered together peacefully for worship. 49 were killed and over 40 were injured from gunshot wounds. The attack had been planned and perpetrated by a 28 year old Australian National who had set up base in the city I live. He actually lived just down the road from me. There appears to have been at least two other accomplices and police are continuing their investigations.

I am in shock as are many in my community. Yesterday community leaders met together with Muslim leaders to discuss how we can support our Muslim community. I was invited as I’m currently the chairman of our cities interfaith council a role which I feel largely unworthy to fulfill.

Many Muslims were feeling unsafe in our communities. The police investigation is ongoing and it is unclear if all perpetrators and accomplices are in custody. In the interim there are to be no meetings in mosques for safety reasons. As an outpouring of support many are approaching Muslim neighbours and associates with gifts and expressions of love and support. Most New Zealanders are appalled by the actions of these far right terrorists. At the meeting yesterday I mostly listened to the concerns of others as we collectively tried to find our way forward.

I’m wanting to discuss and reflect on the journey towards pulling together as a multicultural and multifaith community to support our brothers and sisters in the wake of an act of terrorism and hate. I also wanted to share my personal journey through this horrific time. Thanks for taking the time to read my OP and consider a topic that really affects each and everyone of us.

As it happened: 49 killed, 48 injured in Christchurch terror attack
In general there are Muslims everywhere now. We have them here in Mississippi, USA. Terrorism is stupid, and I chalk up this attack to stupidity. I'm really sorry that this fitness trainer thought that they could make a positive difference by killing people. Honestly though every person is tempted to harm somebody. Sooner or later you just feel that there is this one person or group that the world could do without. Maybe it is someone mean to their kids, someone in prison or maybe they messed with your property line or something like that. Its a stupid mistake to start killing, and somehow this person must not have had all the gears turning in his head. The attacker actually planned this by himself. Also you don't need a lot of brains to be a fitness trainer. Its a respectable job, but it doesn't require a lot of brains.

I don't think this act is representative of the community, and so now there is a tense situation that needs to be defused. Its good that the community is working to show that this was not their will.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Yeah, being a spokesman on such occasions is not my scene. I was elected chairman at the beginning of this month so reluctantly accepted as no one else was nominated.

I imagine as a white Canadian, converting to Hinduism that is predominantly Indian in ehtnic make up and culture is a huge jump. You didn't become a Christian but ended up a Hindu instead. That is a cultural change of epic proportions and was no doubt very challenging at first.

Globalisation as you say has us set on a course where there is really no turnng back the clock. We could fight it or embrace it. I've always enjoyed diversity and I believe we'll get through this.

I've just learned our local mosque will be reopening soon so will be heading off to join in solidarity with the Muslim community.

People vary as to difficulty of integrating into a new community. It was just fun for me, but I've seen others really struggle. I'm glad you stepped up. One gets the sense that the whole thing will fall apart if someone doesn't volunteer, so 'reluctantly' is a great word for it. I was first president of the temple society here, very similar situation. Board gets elected, board appoints officers, first order of business is who will be president. It actually went around the circle 3 full times before I said, 'Yeah, okay, somebody has to do it.'

I hope the mosque re-opening draws half your city.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Sad about what happened in New Zealand. Muslims also should be supportive of civil society. But these monotheistic religions! Will they ever understand?
We recently lost 41 soldiers to terrorist attack and face daily border firing.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I wish harm to no one. I am sorry for everyone's losses in this truly tragic and horrific event.

That said, unreformed Islam is a truly horrible ideology. Whether wittingly or not, when Muslims enter non-Muslim communities, they are tacitly asking us to accept all the intolerance that comes with Islam. This is not acceptable.

Other religions have reformed. So must Islam.

Doctor Baruch Goldstein, a colonist of American descent from Kiryat Arba (Cisjordania) killed over fifty Palestinians with a machine-gun as they were praying at the Tomb of the Patriarchs.

He was a member of an Fundamentalist group founded under the patronage of Ariel Sharon (under whose protection were perpetrated the massacres of Sabra and Shatila, and who was rewarded for his crime by a promotion : Minister of Housing, in charge of developing the "colonies" in the occupied territories).

Baruch Goldstein is now the object of a genuine cult on the part of the Fundamentalists, who come to put flowers on his grave and to kiss it, for he was strictly faithful to the tradition of Joshua, having received the order to exterminate all the people of Canaan in order to seize their lands.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I’m wanting to discuss and reflect on the journey towards pulling together as a multicultural and multifaith community to support our brothers and sisters in the wake of an act of terrorism and hate.
I do not know if you want that. What I see is that the handful of Bahais want everyone to be a Bahai, and accept Bahaullah as a manifestation (sort of 'avatara') of Allah. Not much different from Christianity or Islam.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Doctor Baruch Goldstein, a colonist of American descent from Kiryat Arba (Cisjordania) killed over fifty Palestinians with a machine-gun as they were praying at the Tomb of the Patriarchs.

He was a member of an Fundamentalist group founded under the patronage of Ariel Sharon (under whose protection were perpetrated the massacres of Sabra and Shatila, and who was rewarded for his crime by a promotion : Minister of Housing, in charge of developing the "colonies" in the occupied territories).

Baruch Goldstein is now the object of a genuine cult on the part of the Fundamentalists, who come to put flowers on his grave and to kiss it, for he was strictly faithful to the tradition of Joshua, having received the order to exterminate all the people of Canaan in order to seize their lands.

Well then Goldstein's fundamentalist group promotes an equally horrible ideology, and we should not give it cover either.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Most New Zealanders are appalled by the actions of these far right terrorists.
What is the "far right"? I don't want to google it and end up on some FBI list or even worse, a list of those that support them. But what are they "right" of? Are they white people that think they are better and smarter than everybody else and afraid of losing their superiority? That's not "right" of anything thing, that's radical racism.

But what about the lessor degrees of racism and prejudice? In the U.S. every group of people has their bad and radical side, and we're all scared of those other groups... and lump all together as something different and bad. Mexicans have their gangs. Blacks have gangs. Even Asians and Whites have their gangs. As a kid, nobody from our neighborhood went into someone else's "territory". And how about the adults? Do people grow out of their fears and prejudices? No, adults are just as bad, just on a larger scale.

In America, we were told we were the "good" guys. What we do is what's right. So when we sent in our planes and ships to blow people up, we were trying to stop evil. We were trying to stop the people from over there. The people that were a different color, a different religion, that had different politics and wanted to change our way of life. But how "good" were we? Sometimes, not so good.

The political games still go on. White collar criminals still try and lie and cheat their way into wealth and power. There are so many ways that the dominate group can manipulate the world to keep themselves at the top. But the world is changing. The dominate group's power is fading. What is their plan? To still demonize the other people.

But here in the U.S. it's all people of color. We are told all brown people coming from Central America are evil and trying to invade America, bringing their drugs and gangs. We are told that Muslims want to bring Sharia Law into our country and take over. This attitude starts at the top and trickles down to some young kid with a automatic weapon that thinks he's doing what's right... killing innocent people that he believes are evil. But, he's not right and I wouldn't call him being far to the right, but far wrong. Good luck to you Adrian trying to bring peace and understanding to the people in your city.
Thank you for sharing your experiences in the USA.



Here is a link that appears safe and informative about the far right.

Far-right politics - Wikipedia

It can have a variety of connotations and whether or not its useful will become apparent. The phrase appears to have arisen out of associations with Nazi type ideologies that were racist, nationalistic and upheld political authoritarianism.

The perpetrator posted on social media a 16,000 page manifesto or document. I haven't read, don't intend to read it and would advice others not to read it. Why? Because it is hate speech. It is illegal in my country to disseminate such a document. If you or anyone else comes across it on social media I would advise you delete it.

Racism in this scenario may involve associations with the white supremacist movement. Nationalism may be a belief in the superiority of one's own country above others. In an era of the increasing necessity of international cooperation it could be promoting one's national interests to the deteriment of others or even the world.

From what we know, it appears the main perpetrator was motivated by both racism and a hatred of Islam. Often, but not always, the two can go together.



That sounds like a community that is divided, not united? What about schools and the workplace? Is there not more intermingling of cultures and races? How about marriage? Is there not much in the way of marriage between peoples of different races and cultures? How about with friendships? We're talking about a country that had an African-American president not so long ago...not for just one term but for two! How about your senate and congress? There must be different races represented.

What I read from your post is that racial integration continues to be a challenge in America and racism continues to be a dominant issue. So if there is segregation (albeit voluntarily) there will be more cultural misunderstandings. There will more misinformation and distortions in regards perception of religions or worldviews other than our own.

Race relations in America is clearly a huge topic and well beyond my area of expertise.
Things have changed greatly since I was a kid. In the fifties, if a Black family moved in to the neighborhood, the white families started moving out. There were zero Black kids at the High School I went to, and that was in the late sixties. As you I'm sure know, at the start of the Rock and Roll Era, white singers covered songs that were performed and written by Blacks. But there was prejudices against Whites too. I was raised in LA. We thought we were better than whites from NY. And definitely better than the Whites from the South.

But I don't remember anybody worrying or caring about Muslims. Little did the average American know what was about to happen in the late 70's. In fact it seemed overnight that the Soviet Union was our enemy, then they dissolved and out of no where came Iran, Iraq, Libya and the others. We were led to believe all of them were evil and backwards, mostly because of their religion. In college is the first time I heard the other side of the story, that we wanted their oil and put in leaders that played along with us.

But money and politics play their part, and I think were at the beginning of creating a negative image of people that America saw as enemies. But religion did too. I never heard any religious person say any positive about Islam until I met Baha'is. I heard many Christian preachers say how Islam is a false religion and of the devil. That they were going to attempt to destroy Israel, then Jesus would intervene and destroy them. However, we heard that they felt the same way about us... that America was the Great Satan.

Yes, America is getting much more integrated and accepting of others. But, there's still way too much distrust and anger toward people that are different... and that's with each other here in America. Sure, we had a Black President, but unarmed Blacks are getting shot by police. So now what about Muslims? Our latest President had a solution. He tried to ban all Muslims from entering America. But, it's not only Muslims. He believes that people are invading our country from across the southern border. While kids in the inner cities are shooting each other and mass shooters have shot up schools, movie theaters, and music concerts. So things aren't that good. We seem to be afraid of ourselves too. And then we wonder, what went wrong?

You know what is wrong, pretty much everything. And that is the strongest and most positive thing about the Baha'i Faith. Differences in the color of skin, cultural differences and religion, the differences between the very rich and the very poor... and maybe, the going along with the status quo by the middle class. Because, for them, things aren't that bad. For a long time, things weren't that bad for the average American, the average White American. But things are changing fast. The world demands equality, fairness, and justice. But in the fight, I'm afraid there will always be those few that think they need to use violence. And, unfortunately, they can come from any color or ideology.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
It is terrible tragedy at Christchurch, and even children weren't spared.

The massacre was barbaric, and worse of all using social media to gain attention and notoriety, just so he can spread the hate and bigotry. I wished that can shutdown all footage on the Internet.

Not something any should be proud of.

And there is the bigot and stupid independent politician/senator, Fraser Anning, trying to blame the Muslims in NZ for their death.

I hoped that no Australians, especially the Queenslanders, would vote for Anning in the upcoming election. But I doubt it, because there are lot of redneck racists in Queensland.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I do not know if you want that. What I see is that the handful of Bahais want everyone to be a Bahai, and accept Bahaullah as a manifestation (sort of 'avatara') of Allah. Not much different from Christianity or Islam.

Why should you trust anyone over the internet? This thread is about supporting the Muslim community in the aftermath of a calculated and target murder of 49 of their members while gathered in peace. If you look at my posts you will see I've avoided mentioning the Baha'i Faith. If about anything else, it is about religious prejudice and intolerance of all kinds and how those seeds can grow into hate. None of us is free from the human condition.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Because there is evil in the world which is against what is good.

Nothing at all. The Quran teaches tolerance, love, not to murder and kill and all goodness.

I've studied three different translations of the Quran. It teaches prejudice and intolerance.
 
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