Teacher: Christian faith prohibits treating transgendered students with respect and dignity

[Kangaroo Feathers]

No it's not a disease like diabetes.

I didn't say it was.

 

[Koldo]

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"High school teacher in Virginia fired for refusing to call transgender student male pronouns

A few days ago, the West Point Public School Board in Virginia voted unanimously to fire Peter Vlaming, a French teacher who had taught for seven years, because he refused to call a transgender freshman with the pronouns “he” and “him.” Vlaming said his Christian faith prohibited him from treat the student with respect and dignity.

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Peter Vlaming, who taught French class at West Point High School for nearly seven years, lost his job after a five-hour long public hearing he requested Thursday night.

The original complaint stemmed from a rising-9th-grade student who had transitioned and requested to be called by the male pronouns "he" and "him."

Principal Jonathan Hochman told the School Board that Vlaming refused to use the male pronouns to refer to the student because he considered it a "lie."
source​

Your thoughts on the statement that his "Christian faith prohibited him from treat[ing] the student with respect and dignity."

(A note on the thread's title. It is not a quote from the teacher.)​

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First world problems are so entertaining.

 

[Twilight Hue]

People tend not to like being insulted, invalidated and dehumanized. I'm being a lot nicer to you than I would be otherwise. You're basically calling me a fake. People don't talk to me like that offline, just so you know.

I didn't say that you were fake.

But to deny your own physiology is certainly being dishonest with yourself. It won't change the fact that if archaeologists dug up our bones in a thousand years and attempted to determine sex , you would still be identified as a female and I'm a male based on our bone structure. There's nothing that neither of us can do to change it. That's what I mean by when I say people pretend.

This trend of people trying to be something they really aren't , seems pretty self destructive in so many aspects, but I don't discount ones own mentality by which you relate with being a male that surpasses your natural physiology. I do see you as having legitimate issues.

Personally, I think being a male sucks and wonder why in the hell you would want to be one, yet I certainly wouldn't want to be female just to prove a point to other people and exclaim to the world, that I'm not actually the sex I was originally born with.

It's a conflict of interest and a conflict with your own body, and you strike me as a person who has a lot of trouble dealing with it and on how other people approach it.

If you think that's insulting or dehumanizing , then there's really nothing I can do about it other than to say that's not really my intent here.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I feel that this thread's title is completely.

Refusing to submit to an ideology you consider false is not withholding respect and dignity from anyone.

For example, I truly believe that all of Mankind are the children of God which would makes us spiritual brothers and sisters.

In my religion we refer to each other as Brother or Sister "Last name".

Could I demand that everyone I meet refer to me as Brother John?

Keep in mind, that referring to me as Brother John would cause you to operate under my beliefs concerning our spiritual relationship.

You believe that I should be able to force people to refer to me thusly?

If they don't refer to me as Brother John, I could claim they aren't treating me with respect and dignity and I could get them fired?

The idea that a person can change their sex is just as religious as my beliefs concerning the spirits of Man.

Why are you presenting such a false narrative?

You got it wrong as usual. Tell me, how would you react if a teacher insisted on calling either your boy "her" or "she" because the teacher thought that your son was effeminate. Or how would you feel if the teacher insisted on calling your daughter "he" or referring to her as "him" because the teacher thought that she was too butch?

A little empathy on your part for others would make this clear to you.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I didn't say that you were fake.

But to deny your own physiology is certainly being dishonest with yourself. It won't change the fact that if archaeologists dug up our bones in a thousand years and attempted to determine sex , you would still be identified as a female and I'm a male based on our bone structure. There's nothing that neither of us can do to change it. That's what I mean by when I say people pretend.

This trend of people trying to be something they really aren't , seems pretty self destructive in so many aspects, but I don't discount ones own mentality by which you relate with being a male that surpasses your natural physiology. I do see you as having legitimate issues.

Personally, I think being a male sucks and wonder why in the hell you would want to be one, yet I certainly wouldn't want to be female just to prove a point to other people and exclaim to the world, that I'm not actually the sex I was originally born with.

It's a conflict of interest and a conflict with your own body, and you strike me as a person who has a lot of trouble dealing with it and on how other people approach it.

If you think that's insulting or dehumanizing , then there's really nothing I can do about it other than to say that's not really my intent here.

sex=/= gender

 

[sealchan]

A lot of it has to do with natural and artificial means of sexual determination.

Let's face it , sex changes are just not natural designations but at the same time it's not an excuse to belittle that person for making that decision.

It doesn't sound like the teacher belittled anybody. He just had his own principles he wanted to defend. It's not like he was refusing to teach transgender people. He just couldn't bring himself to call on a person that they're clearly not from a natural standpoint.

And yet in his church they probably say that what is natural, of the body, is to be resisted by the spirit.

Ironic.

 

[Jainarayan]

Your thoughts on the statement that his "Christian faith prohibited him from treat[ing] the student with respect and dignity."

He's the furthest thing from Christian.

*drops mic*

 

[Baladas]

Faux Biblese gives a +3 bonus on all Truthiness rolls

Thankfully, there have been fewer crits rolled these days by this particular character class.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I didn't say that you were fake.

But to deny your own physiology is certainly being dishonest with yourself. It won't change the fact that if archaeologists dug up our bones in a thousand years and attempted to determine sex , you would still be identified as a female and I'm a male based on our bone structure. There's nothing that neither of us can do to change it. That's what I mean by when I say people pretend.

This trend of people trying to be something they really aren't , seems pretty self destructive in so many aspects, but I don't discount ones own mentality by which you relate with being a male that surpasses your natural physiology. I do see you as having legitimate issues.

Personally, I think being a male sucks and wonder why in the hell you would want to be one, yet I certainly wouldn't want to be female just to prove a point to other people and exclaim to the world, that I'm not actually the sex I was originally born with.

It's a conflict of interest and a conflict with your own body, and you strike me as a person who has a lot of trouble dealing with it and on how other people approach it.

If you think that's insulting or dehumanizing , then there's really nothing I can do about it other than to say that's not really my intent here.

No, I don't think how you put here is insulting or dehumanizing. I am a sensitive person, yes, but trans people go through a ton of crap in society. It's the usual for us to be misunderstood and maligned. This is starting to change, but acceptance isn't the norm yet.

I'm well-aware of the current limits of science and medicine. I know I can't change my bones or DNA. Oh, well. The point is to do what I can to live authentically. As for my remains being found centuries from now, I reckon that researchers will be more sensitive to things in the future. My grave will identify me as a male, anyway. (Unless I die in some freak accident or whatever and my body is lost with nothing to identify me.)

It's not a matter of "wanting to be male", as people sometimes think it is. I've always perceived myself as a male. My mental or brain sex has never changed. I was always male. I just lacked the language to express it when I was a child. Trans children will often flat out tell adults what their actual gender is. The point is to bring my body inline with that to the degree that I'm comfortable and my dysphoria is eased.

 

[Prestor John]

Transgenderism is a legitimate medical condition. It's no more an ideology than diabetes is.

I never said it wasn't a legitimate medical or psychological condition.

There is obviously something wrong with people who believe they are members of the opposite sex.

Just because a legitimate crazy person believes that the lamp is talking to them, that doesn't mean the lamp can actually talk.

Just because a transgender person believes they are a member of the opposite sex, that doesn't mean that they are.

Other people encouraging the delusions of the transgendered are engaging in a false ideology.

Forcing someone to pretend that a man is a woman or a woman is a man is immoral.

 

[Prestor John]

You got it wrong as usual. Tell me, how would you react if a teacher insisted on calling either your boy "her" or "she" because the teacher thought that your son was effeminate. Or how would you feel if the teacher insisted on calling your daughter "he" or referring to her as "him" because the teacher thought that she was too butch?

A little empathy on your part for others would make this clear to you.

Your example is not comparable at all.

Being effeminate or butch does not change one's biology.

I would want any teacher or other person to refer to my children by their biological sex. Period.

Being empathetic does not involve encouraging the delusions of the mentally ill.

You are doing them a disservice if you reinforce their desires to live outside reality and you do everyone else a disservice if you try to force them to pretend as well.

You really are not good at discussions. You should probably stop.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I never said it wasn't a legitimate medical or psychological condition.

There is obviously something wrong with people who believe they are members of the opposite sex.

Just because a legitimate crazy person believes that the lamp is talking to them, that doesn't mean the lamp can actually talk.

Just because a transgender person believes they are a member of the opposite sex, that doesn't mean that they are.

Other people encouraging the delusions of the transgendered are engaging in a false ideology.

that is not what ideology means, and I'm really not interested in playing "debate by word redefinition" with you

Forcing someone to pretend that a man is a woman or a woman is a man is immoral.

No one is being forced to pretend anything. Someone has been told not to refer to someone else with terms that person objects to. Perfectly acceptable, neutral terms exist, yet the teacher chose to continue using unacceptable charged terms, presumably to make some sort of explicit point, or actively offend. Both things that teachers shouldn't be doing at the expense of their students.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Your example is not comparable at all.

Being effeminate or butch does not change one's biology.

I would want any teacher or other person to refer to my children by their biological sex. Period.

Being empathetic does not involve encouraging the delusions of the mentally ill.

You are doing them a disservice if you reinforce their desires to live outside reality and you do everyone else a disservice if you try to force them to pretend as well.

You really are not good at discussions. You should probably stop.

What do actual healthcare professionals say? Since you seem SO concerned with the welfare of the "mentally ill"? Hmmm?

I'll give you a hint; the answer ISN'T "needlessly call them by names and terms they have asked you not to"

 

[Curious George]

Your example is not comparable at all.

Being effeminate or butch does not change one's biology.

I would want any teacher or other person to refer to my children by their biological sex. Period.

Being empathetic does not involve encouraging the delusions of the mentally ill.

You are doing them a disservice if you reinforce their desires to live outside reality and you do everyone else a disservice if you try to force them to pretend as well.

You really are not good at discussions. You should probably stop.

I think it was a perfect question. And it is great that you feel that way, but what of the teacher refused still. Saying they were aware of your want and your child's want to be called a particular sex but they thought doing so would be a lie based on how they believed.

What would be the appropriate recourse?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Your example is not comparable at all.

Being effeminate or butch does not change one's biology.

I would want any teacher or other person to refer to my children by their biological sex. Period.

Being empathetic does not involve encouraging the delusions of the mentally ill.

You are doing them a disservice if you reinforce their desires to live outside reality and you do everyone else a disservice if you try to force them to pretend as well.

You really are not good at discussions. You should probably stop.

Transgenderism/transsexualism is not a mental illness and is not treated as one by mental health professionals. It was changed in the DSM to "gender dysphoria" (dysphoria being the part that causes distress) but it might end up removed all together.

Answers to Your Questions About Transgender People, Gender Identity, and Gender Expression
What Is Gender Dysphoria?
The World Health Organization will stop classifying transgender people as mentally ill - CNN

The WPATH standards of care were established decades ago.
Standards of Care for the Health of Transsexual, Transgender, and Gender Nonconforming People - Wikipedia

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

*Idly wondering just how seriously any of us should be taking someone named after one of the earliest and most successful religious troll/hoax/Poe's ever...*

 

[Jainarayan]

There is obviously something wrong with people who believe they are members of the opposite sex.

I absolutely agree. Their spirit/soul was born into the wrong physical body.

 

[sealchan]

I never said it wasn't a legitimate medical or psychological condition.

There is obviously something wrong with people who believe they are members of the opposite sex.

Just because a legitimate crazy person believes that the lamp is talking to them, that doesn't mean the lamp can actually talk.

Just because a transgender person believes they are a member of the opposite sex, that doesn't mean that they are.

Other people encouraging the delusions of the transgendered are engaging in a false ideology.

Forcing someone to pretend that a man is a woman or a woman is a man is immoral.

What about those who engage in encouraging your delusions about how simple sexual orientation is?

What if transgender people are actually speaking the truth? And that truth is no more a matter of choice for them than it is for you or me? What if that is God's plan as "written" in the reality of His/Her/It's creation?

Then where would your argument leave you?

It would leave you in a place where what you say with sincerity is dismissed as crazy talk. Where what you were told by others who have no experience what they want you to believe over and against what sincerity has spoken to you by others not of your kind or group. It will leave you in a place where your comfort imposes on the comfort of others by the very definition of your comfort. What if you believe in something...and it is simply flat wrong in spite of every impulse in your heart, mind and soul?

I don't envy your position.

 

[Prestor John]

that is not what ideology means, and I'm really not interested in playing "debate by word redefinition" with you

Ideology: a system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy.

Ideal: satisfying one's conception of what is perfect; most suitable.

Aren't transgender delusion supporters espousing the ideal that a person should be called what they believe to be, and not what they actually are, and isn't that a political policy?

No one is being forced to pretend anything.

Force (verb): make (someone) do something against their will.

"Even though you do not believe that I am a man I demand that you address me as if I were a man (but I'm actually a woman) or I'll get you fired!"

Someone has been told not to refer to someone else with terms that person objects to.

There is something wrong with you if you object to biological reality and no one should pander to your delusion.

I personally believe that all of Mankind are the children of God, can I force my teacher to refer to me as his literal brother, no matter what he believes on the subject?

I can force him to act according to my beliefs in direct violation of his own?

Perfectly acceptable, neutral terms exist, yet the teacher chose to continue using unacceptable charged terms, presumably to make some sort of explicit point, or actively offend.

The OP claims that the transgendered person demanded to be referred to as "him" or "he", so I don't know why you are bringing up "neutral terms".

Even if the transgendered person wanted to be addressed as zer, you can't force people to act according to your ideology.

Whatever motivated the teacher to not use the transgendered person's desired pronouns is irrelevant.

You can't force people to espouse an ideal or act according to an ideology that they do not agree with.

End of story.

Both things that teachers shouldn't be doing at the expense of their students.

Teachers are not therapists or babysitters.

They are there to teach, not pander to delusions.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

I don't have much sympathy for Christians, but just to show I can be more charitable than the bigots in this thread, here's an example of Christians being tolerant
Church of England approves transgender clergy guidance for welcoming trans Christians