Does the Bible mention Islam?

[shmogie]

I think you mean a third covenant, because there was already one on Mt. Horeb and one in Moab. But no, the third covenant is demonstrably not yet been made as we can see in the world around us.

The Messiah said, "my kingdom is not of THIS world". However, God will end THIS world, and it will be recreated as originally intended, before the fall, and He will reign over a world of peace and justice, exactly as promised.

 

[Tumah]

The Messiah said, "my kingdom is not of THIS world". However, God will end THIS world, and it will be recreated as originally intended, before the fall, and He will reign over a world of peace and justice, exactly as promised.

I guess this is where the Emperor's New Clothes story came from.

But more salient to the comment I had made before, this does not prove that the new covenant of Jer. 31 was made. And as I said before, the fact that we look around and don't see the conditions of Jeremiah's new covenant manifesting, proves that it has not yet been made.

 

[shmogie]

I guess this is where the Emperor's New Clothes story came from.

But more salient to the comment I had made before, this does not prove that the new covenant of Jer. 31 was made. And as I said before, the fact that we look around and don't see the conditions of Jeremiah's new covenant manifesting, proves that it has not yet been made.

We simply disagree. Peace

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Absolutely not. G-d is unchanging and He said that His Laws are eternal. How could He contradict Himself?

Baha'u'llah has confirmed an aspect of this;

"..This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures..."

The question is then, have we practiced Gods Laws and Faith as it was intended. We have to ask ourselves, how much pride has crept into our worship of our One G_d.

It is also now known that the changeless aspect also has an aspect that does change and Scripture written in metephor would hint that there are many meanings to be found, only if we choose to look for more meaning.

Regards Tony

 

[Tumah]

Baha'u'llah has confirmed an aspect of this;

"..This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures..."

The question is then, have we practiced Gods Laws and Faith as it was intended. We have to ask ourselves, how much pride has crept into our worship of our One G_d.

It is also now known that the changeless aspect also has an aspect that does change and Scripture written in metephor would hint that there are many meanings to be found, only if we choose to look for more meaning.

Regards Tony

No, it is still not known. If something has an aspect of change than it is not changeless. If something is abrogated, than it is not eternal.

 

[shmogie]

If you don't know Arabic and Greek, then i wouldn't dare to begin with this topic if i was you. You do not want to base your claims on sectarian translations.

In Arabic there are three words for son, there is ghulaam, welled, and ibn. The Quran warns against calling Jesus Christ te literal son of God. There is nothing wrong in calling Christ a spiritual son of God. The Quran even used the term 'children of God'. And the point is, not only Christ can be called a son of God, so can the righteouss be as well, but i agree that he is an unique one, since he is Christ, and we humans received many prophets, but just one Christ.

But you are probably smart enough to study Greek and read the original Gospel. And if you want to claim what the Quran really says, then it would be wise to study Arabic.
A golden advice is, never trust a translation. One, you are just reading what the translator understood, and two, they have errors in them.

Anyways, the Quran in 5:47 told us to Judge with the Gospel. And the Quran in 5:68 told us to uphold the Tora and the Gospel, else we are on nothing.
So stay away from these discussions if you do not know Greek and Arabic.

A red herring. , One that Muslims have laid down for years. The Jewish scriptures have been translated into English by Jewish scholars who are Hebrew scholars.

The NT, originally written in Koine Greek. has been translated into English numerous times by groups of Greek scholars, as well as individual ones.

Like any translating of one language to another, there are some words in one language that cannot be translated into another perfectly accurately.

These words might be translated differently with slightly different meanings. However, one who is truly interested in knowing what the Bible says will read and compare various translations, they will take advantage of Study Bibles which identify these words and go into great depth about meanings and applications, the Bible can be concisely understood. One need not have to speak Koine Greek.

Those who say one must be able to read Arabic to understand the Koran remind me of the hierarchy and priesthood of the middle ages Catholic Church who said one had to read Latin to understand the Bible, which was nonsense.

Since I don´t read Arabic, any verse in the Koran I find disturbing, and point out to a Muslim, many times, becomes, ¨the Koran can only be understood in Arabic¨. A wonderful dodge in saying it doesn´t mean what it says, end of discussion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, it is still not known. If something has an aspect of change than it is not changeless. If something is abrogated, than it is not eternal.

Thats good, you see it as you choose to, that to us all, is a G_d given gift.

I see the Sun rises each day, it is eternal an gives life. Here on earth we all see that Sun from a different angle and some have 4 seasons some have 2 seasons etc.

If a person, because they live in a part of the world that has 4 seasons says that is the only way it is, then?

I see G_d is more than we restrict G_d to by our interpretation of the Revealed Word. If G_d has chosen to explain further what is meant by the Changeless Face of God and what is subject to change, then who am I so say otherwise?

Regards Tony

 

[1213]

Why is there nothing about climate change in any of the religious scriptures?

The fourth poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was given to him to scorch men with fire. People were scorched with great heat, and people blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues. They didn't repent and give him glory.
Rev. 16:8-9

And Mohammed can be seen as false prophet.

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do you gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree produces good fruit; but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. A good tree can't produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. Every tree that doesn't grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire. Therefore, by their fruits you will know them.
Matt. 7:15-20


For there will arise false christs, and false prophets, and they will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the chosen ones.
Matt. 24:24

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And Mohammed can be seen as false prophet.

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do you gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree produces good fruit; but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. A good tree can't produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. Every tree that doesn't grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire. Therefore, by their fruits you will know them.
Matt. 7:15-20

How does that show Muhammad a False Prophet?

When I read the Quran I see good fruit.

Are you saying the followers of Muhammad are bad fruit?

If so, is Christianity without bad fruit?

Muhammad did not come in deceptive clothing, He openly gave a Message from God. A true Messenger never hides from the people.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

That motivates me to start a religion based on reverse engineering. If I call my religion "Good" then, knowing that the word "Good" is all over the biblical text, I can claim my religion is in the bible! It's a perfect system.

So much of "prophecy" being fulfilled sounds way too much like reverse engineering. But calling your new religion "Good" might not be enough. The Baha'is are the "followers of the light" or "glory" and their prophet is the "Glory of God". How do you beat that?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So much of "prophecy" being fulfilled sounds way too much like reverse engineering. But calling your new religion "Good" might not be enough. The Baha'is are the "followers of the light" or "glory" and their prophet is the "Glory of God". How do you beat that?

I see no one would dare consider a Message so vast, knowing of the consequences. One power alone achieve that.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Enjoy your tea, but I have doubts anything significant will come from your metaphor, nor your reading of the tea leaves.

Regards Tony

The Bible is the tea leaves and Baha'is are saying they can read them. Baha'u'llah, The Bab, and Muhammad are all there to be plainly seen, but only for those that are so spiritually pure they believe anything the Baha'i Faith says. But what about those of us that ain't that pure? The Baha'i interpretations don't look like tea. They look like a cup of mud.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Bible is the tea leaves and Baha'is are saying they can read them. Baha'u'llah, The Bab, and Muhammad are all there to be plainly seen, but only for those that are so spiritually pure they believe anything the Baha'i Faith says. But what about those of us that ain't that pure? The Baha'i interpretations don't look like tea. They look like a cup of mud.

All good CG, you view the world as you see you must.

Again it is not us that say we can read them, we have accepted the explanations of who we think can. With these explanations, a different frame of reference is obtained.

As to of if it is good or not, time will always tell.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

The Message of Muhammad lasted 1260 years until 1844 when the Bab's Message brought the dawn of a new day of God.

CG, I think this has been explained at least a dozen times

Regards Tony

Yes, the message of Muhammad lasted 1260 years to The Bab's declaration. But what does that have to do with the Umayyad dynasty lasting 1260 years? You guys are the ones saying that the Umayyads are this beast. The beast is in power for 1260 days/years. The 1260 can't be pushed back every time to 621AD just so you can always use it to get to 1844. What is the exact quote about the beast that the Baha'is say is the Umayyads? And what does it say about how long that beast will be in power? I think I've asked how you justify doing this at least a million times. Anyway, Adrian's got a post on this also. Let me see what he says.

 

[rosends]

So much of "prophecy" being fulfilled sounds way too much like reverse engineering. But calling your new religion "Good" might not be enough. The Baha'is are the "followers of the light" or "glory" and their prophet is the "Glory of God". How do you beat that?

"Really Good"

 

[CG Didymus]

666 fits nicely between 665 and 667!

The date of birth of Jesus is not stated in the gospels or in any secular text but most scholars assume a date of birth between 6 BC and 4 BC.

Date of birth of Jesus - Wikipedia



1260 years refers to a date in the Islamic calendar which begun with Muhammad's Hegira...

Hegira - Wikipedia

...and ended with the declaration of the Bab in 1260 (1844 on the Gregorian) calendar.

I agree prophecy is cryptic. However the number 1260 features twice in the book of revelation.
Revelation 11:2-3
Revelation 12:6

The day for a year approach is well established amongst Christians and is not just a Baha'i approach.

What is the prophecy of 1,260 days in Revelation?

So while prophecy can be vague, this is one of the most specific prophecies in the Bible.



The advent of the any Messiah is accompanied by great tribulations (Matthew 24).

The glitch is that the 1260 days, forty two weeks, or 3 1/2 days, no matter what it is referring to in the context, is always made to mean the time between 621AD and 1844AD. Each beast or dragon or whatever is doing something for a specific amount of time that started at some point in time. That time was not 621AD.

Tribulations accompanying the advent of a Messiah is not the question. The Baha'i find Muhammad in Revelation. One of those times he is the "First Woe" another time he is one of the "Two Witnesses". These things are two chapters apart. So you've already had all three "Woes" and then the prophecy goes back to Muhammad? And for good measure the prophecy throws in Ali?

Yes prophecies are vague and almost anything can be made to sound like it fits. But, what I see as another glitch in the Baha'i explanation is that most of the prophecies relate to Muhammad and the evil dragons and beasts that are the Umayyad and Abbasid dynasties. These things are centuries old. They avoid everything about the rise of the West and Christianity and their "beast" powers. And, since Baha'u'llah has come and gone, I would imagine that Revelation should be done with. But since Baha'u'llah, we've had two world wars and almost a third. It seems very possible that the prophecies are still going on.

 

[CG Didymus]

"Really Good"

Is "really" in the Bible? How do you say that in Hebrew? Never mind, I'm sure the root word is in there somewhere. That should be good enough. Good job... or should I say "Really Good" job.

 

[rosends]

Is "really" in the Bible? How do you say that in Hebrew? Never mind, I'm sure the root word is in there somewhere. That should be good enough. Good job... or should I say "Really Good" job.

well, in the bible it would be "very good". So I'll stick with that.

 

[Deeje]

On those grounds the Jews reject Christ. We need to take into account a new Covenant that could deviate from a more rigid interpretation of Mosaic law.

The reason why the Jewish leaders rejected Christ was because of their own false expectation about what the Messiah was supposed to do.....from their perspective, it obviously didn't include extreme criticism of their hypocritical application of the Law. (Matthew 23)
Jesus condemned them to the worst punishment that Jews could imagine....no wonder they swayed the people against him. (Matthew 27:25)

Your fundamental problem is being locked into a Judeo-Christian worldview mindset that is similar to the mindset the Jews have that prevents them from recognising Christ.

LOL.....the fundamental problem is that this is what we all do....the other fundamental truth is that only one view is correct, which means that there are a lot of deluded people in this situation. Why does God allow this? (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) He simply allows people to believe whatever they want. It's an exercise of their free will. He does not leave himself without testimony or witnesses.

Another basic problem is to equate Islam with pagan worship. Muhammad moved His people away from paganism to strict monotheism. Both Moses and Muhammad emphased strongly the importance of avoiding paganism.

Since Jesus foretold that even Christianity was going to be corrupted in much the same way as Judaism, (introducing the traditions of men as a virtual substitute for the word of God) it is not surprising that the situation exists on a grand scale in Christianity, with its multitude of denominations, mirroring the situation in Judaism in Jesus' day, only worse. Sectarianism broke it up into bickering sects, all of which were rejected by Jesus. From Christ's perspective, none of them were correct until he led a righteous few out of that corrupt system. I believe he views all false worship the same way and today he has also led a righteous group out of another corrupt religious system. "Sheep and goats"....that's all there is. One is right....the rest are wrong. We choose which camp feels like home.

It is also pointless looking at numbers to bolster a religion's status, since Jesus said that "few" are on the road to life (Matthew 7:13-14) That means that the majority of mankind are travelling along a superhighway to death. The devil will laughing all the way to their demise. But then he will eventually have to face his own.

Muslims pray to Allah five times a day. I'd say its more than the average Christian prays.

Seriously? You think this is all that is required? Isaiah said of Israel...."And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood." (Isaiah 1:15 ASV)

Any religion that promotes bloodshed does not have God's sanction. Jesus promoted peace. His disciples had to be 'merciful' "peacemakers" (Matthew 5:3-11) That hardly describes sharia law.

The voice of one crying in the wilderness: "Prepare the way of the Lord; Make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

This applied to no one but John the Baptist. Jesus made no other application. John alone prepared the way for the Messiah, whom he clearly identified as "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world"....Jesus was to come only once in the flesh, which he sacrificed for our sins. His second appearance was not to be fleshly, but in spirit. He was granted immortality on his return to heaven and could not ever die again.

There is no foreign deity. There is One G-d who rules over the earth supreme. The Quran mentions 50 biblical characters. The story of the Quran is simply a continuation the story in the Bible with the same G-d.

I believe that there is someone who wants you to think so.....but it isn't true. If Muslims and Jews worship the same God and Christians do too....then something is horribly wrong. In each of those religious systems, people are waiting for vastly different outcomes. They cant all be right.

In the first century, the "Gentile Times" (the period of Gentile domination of God's people) were still undergoing their fulfillment. So when Christ made his first appearance, he did not even attempt to liberate the Jews from the yoke of Rome. It was not yet time to establish his kingdom on earth.

Jesus was not sent to the religious leaders, but to the ones whom they were neglecting, causing them to become spiritually "lost". Jesus often used "sheep" and "shepherds" in his illustrations so that the people understood what his role was as "the Fine Shepherd" and how he was going to release them from their restrictive spiritual pen and guide them into new and nourishing pasturage with freedom to choose Jehovah as their God....the God and Father willingly served by Jesus Christ. (Revelation 3:12)

Jesus did not do what those former negligent shepherds had done, he went especially to the "lost" ones (the tax collectors and sinners) and showed them how to become spiritually liberated from an irreformable religious system that had lost the plot....."straining at gnats, but gulping down camels". They were nit-picking the minor and inconsequential things of the Law but neglecting the weightier and more important things like faithfulness, mercy and justice. (Matthew 23:23)

 

[Deeje]

The G-d of the Quran is the same G-d in the Bible.

The god of all false religion is the same god. He is the one who hijacked the human race in Eden to gain worship for himself. He is the god known by many titles....but the true God has only one name, revealed to Moses in Exodus 3:14-15, which if you look that up in the Jewish Tanach is YHWH (Yahweh, Jehovah)

The god of Islam is Allah which simply means "Lord".
For Jews it is Adonai which also means "Lord".
For Christians, there is a trinitarian God who was borrowed from paganism, but his name is Lord too....the Lord Jesus. These are the same god...but none of them are Jehovah.

"Lord" is a title, like "god" is a title....but Jehovah revealed that he has only one name and it is a name that he gave to himself and revealed to humankind. His people were always identified with his name. When Israel failed to keep their covenant, God chose a new nation to be his people...."the Israel of God".....spiritual Israel. (Acts 15:14; Galatians 6:16) These were now made up of both Jews and Gentiles who willingly became disciples of God's son. Being born into the Nation of Israel was no longer a valid reason to claim YHWH as your God.....his name was lost by them, butvrestored by Jesus to his disciples. (John 17:26)

While Christ emphasised looking out for false prophets, so too must we recognise the genuine prophets of G-d

In looking for the counterfeits, you need accurate knowledge of the original. If you are comparing counterfeits to counterfeits, you will never see the difference.
If you know the original well, the counterfeits become very obvious, very quickly.

The other reason to emphasise false prophets was simply Jesus had already come and none other was required. It was for that reason Jesus comforted His disciples in the week leading to His crucifixion reminding them He was the promised One (John 14:6).

He prepared them as best he could, but there was still so much that they did not comprehend....this is why he told them not to leave Jerusalem but to wait for the "helper". (Acts 1:3-5) This would mean a baptism in holy spirit, revealing the full extent of their choosing and giving them extraordinary abilities.

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you."

This was the promised holy spirit. After Jesus presented the value of his sacrifice to God in heaven, only then was the holy spirit used to empower the disciples with miraculous gifts, but it also anointed them for a specific role in heaven. This was something very new for them to comprehend. For Jews, the Kingdom had been something to be set up on earth, so to give it a new connotation required God's spirit to endow the disciples with a new hope.....the spirit gave them an inordinate desire to go to heaven. This had to override their natural desire to live in the restored paradise on earth which was the promise of Messiah's kingdom, with Jews making up the priesthood in a literal temple. That was now something that would take place in heaven. It would be a heavenly government with earthly subjects. (Revelation 21:2-4)

When the Advocate (Paraclete) is come whom I will send to you from the Father's presence--the Spirit of Truth who comes forth from the Father's presence--He will be a witness concerning me."

Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

The helper was not human. The holy spirit is not a person; it is the power of God given to those who are chosen to rule with his son in the heavenly kingdom.

Many Muslim writers have argued that “another Paraclete” (John 14:16), the first being Jesus refers to Muhammad. The word "Paraclete" could be applied also to Jesus himself as in 1 John 2:1.

Since the "Paraclete" is not a person, it does not refer to any human.

The Holy Spirit—A Person? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

John 14:15-16...."and I will request the Father and he will give you another spokesman to be with you forever, 17 the Spirit of Truth, which the world cannot receive because it does not perceive nor know it; you know it, because it stays with you and is in you." (BLE)

The Spirit of the Truth is an "it" and "Paraclete" is used in the masculine gender because of grammar, not because the Paraclete is a human male.

Concerning 1 John 2:1, Jesus is referred to as a helper because he is the appointed "mediator between God and men".....'no one comes to the Father, except through Jesus'. His sacrifice alone opens up the way to heaven. That leaves out any other person claiming to be the returned Christ. His return was not to be in the flesh, only to die a second physical death. That would negate why he came to give up his life the first time.