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Many Religions Make for a Better World than One (or None)

joe1776

Well-Known Member
That's a very cynical perspective on religion that I do not share.
So, you are denying the obvious: religion has succeeded in dividing humanity up into thousands of quarreling sects?

You're also replacing one allegedly false premise with another - that humans have a quest for "global harmony." I can tell you right now I definitely do not share in this quest.
If not the goal of global harmony, then what motive drives you to suggest that the diversity of religion is a positive thing for humanity? Positive how if it doesn't help us get along better?

That's not actually what was said. Furthermore, I doubt that you actually believe exclusivity is a requirement for something to be beautiful or have value. Might as well go "oh, this art museum has more than one painting in it.... that means they are all worthless and nothing would be lost by burning them all!"

This was your claim:
"All religions have something beautiful to offer. Further, the ways in which these religions are beautiful are different. That is, if you remove any one of them, you loose something amazing. "


What are you talking about? A few examples would help readers understand.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
  • All religions have something beautiful to offer. Further, the ways in which these religions are beautiful are different. That is, if you remove any one of them, you loose something amazing. This isn't to say all these religions don't also have their ugly sides, but is it really worth loosing that beauty to remove some blemishes? Talk about throwing out the seeds with the soil.
  • One religion (or none at all) is not a sustainable condition. History shows us what happens when humans lack choices, as our nature begs for options. Attempts at monopolies fail - the authoritarian structure become corrupt over time, and people beg for something different when the monopoly inevitably fails to meet someone's particular needs. One way cannot last and will fragment into many. So why try and force a monopoly of religion (or irreligion) in the first place?
  • There's no way to know if something is the "One True Way". Many hearken to the notion of one religion for all (or no religions for anyone) because they want certainty. There is no such certainty to be had. If there is a "best" or "right" way, we'll never agree on what that is or know if we've found it. We can only know what is "best" or "right" for us and our communities right now... and that answer can chance over time. A monopoly doesn't give you options when your needs change.
Thoughts?

P1 I disagree with. If the religion does not offer something unique it is not needed for that something to exist; charity for example. If a religion hold a horrible practice like human sacrifice losing it is a benefit regardless of what amazing things it has. The core is rotten not the seeds. Cut down the tree.
 

Neuropteron

Active Member
Every so often, someone will voice the opinion that the world would be better off if everybody followed some particular religion. The reasons why someone supposes this vary somewhat, but essentially boil down to the belief that this religion is the best way or even the only true way. Similar opinions are voiced in the name of irreligion when we hear someone state the world would be better off if nobody followed any religions at all. That opinion also holds the assumption that their way is the best way or perhaps the only true way. In both cases, accepting these opinions as true would mean discarding any potential value that religious diversity has for humanity. That's quite the tall order indeed, as it doesn't take much to recognize that many religions - religious diversity - makes for a better world than one religion or none at all.

There are various ways one could argue the case for this, but I'm going to borrow from an author I read regularly who is the inspiration for this thread. The list below is inspired by that work, but also different from it, but to give credit where credit is due, that article is here (A World With Many Religions is Better Than a World With Only One).

  • All religions have something beautiful to offer. Further, the ways in which these religions are beautiful are different. That is, if you remove any one of them, you loose something amazing. This isn't to say all these religions don't also have their ugly sides, but is it really worth loosing that beauty to remove some blemishes? Talk about throwing out the seeds with the soil.
  • One religion (or none at all) is not a sustainable condition. History shows us what happens when humans lack choices, as our nature begs for options. Attempts at monopolies fail - the authoritarian structure become corrupt over time, and people beg for something different when the monopoly inevitably fails to meet someone's particular needs. One way cannot last and will fragment into many. So why try and force a monopoly of religion (or irreligion) in the first place?
  • There's no way to know if something is the "One True Way". Many hearken to the notion of one religion for all (or no religions for anyone) because they want certainty. There is no such certainty to be had. If there is a "best" or "right" way, we'll never agree on what that is or know if we've found it. We can only know what is "best" or "right" for us and our communities right now... and that answer can chance over time. A monopoly doesn't give you options when your needs change.
Thoughts?
........

I'm not saying you don't have some valid argumentation because you do.

The Bible however is quite clear that there is only one religion acceptable to the creator.
Jesus stated "I am the way, and the truth,no one comes to the father except through me".(Joh 14:6)

I suppose it boils down to who do we believe.

Cheers
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
So, you are denying the obvious: religion has succeeded in dividing humanity up into thousands of quarreling sects?


Religions have had many roles and impacts throughout human history. I don't deny any of those roles, and I'm not one to be a fixate on the negative impacts of something and ignore all the positive ones. I'm not a cynic or a pessimist.

If not the goal of global harmony, then what motive drives you to suggest that the diversity of religion is a positive thing for humanity?

I value diversity, in general. Those are lessons I've learned through both the study of the sciences and the arts. The world as we know it pretty much wouldn't exist without diversity. Also, read the OP, and perhaps the article that inspired the OP (which is linked to in the OP). That's basically what it's about, yo.


What are you talking about? A few examples would help readers understand.

The article the OP is inspired by mentions some, and I didn't think it was necessary to include any because they are incredibly obvious to anyone who has spent even a moment or two examining the world's religions.
If the beauty in the world's religions somehow aren't incredibly obvious to someone, they're so hopelessly cynical that no examples will satisfy. They're blind to the architectural beauty of temples, deaf to the music of hymns and chants, and insensate to the rhythms of trance dancing or meditation. And somehow think nothing of value would be lost by them all being gone. My brain can't even process that level of cynicism, honestly.
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
Positives can outweigh negatives and vice versa.

In mathematics, maybe. We're talking about people and reality. The Spanish Inquisition doesn't get removed from history by opening X number of soup-kitchens. That's not how it works. Nothing removes it from history. Ever. Nothing removes the soup-kitchens either.

You misunderstand There is no double standard on my part.

The OP makes this claim:

"All religions have something beautiful to offer. Further, the ways in which these religions are beautiful are different. That is, if you remove any one of them, you loose something amazing."

In asking the following:

"A big claim but what are you talking about? Can you give us say three examples of beautiful things that religion, and only religion, have given the world?" I'm only asking that he support his claim with examples of "something amazing that would be lost" if religions didn't exist.

That isn't what you asked for, actually. If you had, I would have said nothing.

You aren't saying that, in debate, it's unfair of me to ask him to explain and support his claim. Are you?

Not in the slightest. Nor do I expect to speak for Quintessence who is more than capable of that. Your question coupled with the previous commentary about divisiveness created a double-standard. I noticed and pointed it out. Anyone interested in honest debate would have immediately backed up on that. What did you do? First, you try to shift the blame to the OP with some quick editing. Now, you're trying to say you were only ever asking for "something amazing that would be lost" but you already know that's incredibly simple to produce, so why would you have asked for it?

Its better to concede the point than to try and cheat. Don't you know that?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Every so often, someone will voice the opinion that the world would be better off if everybody followed some particular religion. The reasons why someone supposes this vary somewhat, but essentially boil down to the belief that this religion is the best way or even the only true way. Similar opinions are voiced in the name of irreligion when we hear someone state the world would be better off if nobody followed any religions at all. That opinion also holds the assumption that their way is the best way or perhaps the only true way. In both cases, accepting these opinions as true would mean discarding any potential value that religious diversity has for humanity. That's quite the tall order indeed, as it doesn't take much to recognize that many religions - religious diversity - makes for a better world than one religion or none at all.

There are various ways one could argue the case for this, but I'm going to borrow from an author I read regularly who is the inspiration for this thread. The list below is inspired by that work, but also different from it, but to give credit where credit is due, that article is here (A World With Many Religions is Better Than a World With Only One).

  • All religions have something beautiful to offer. Further, the ways in which these religions are beautiful are different. That is, if you remove any one of them, you loose something amazing. This isn't to say all these religions don't also have their ugly sides, but is it really worth loosing that beauty to remove some blemishes? Talk about throwing out the seeds with the soil.
  • One religion (or none at all) is not a sustainable condition. History shows us what happens when humans lack choices, as our nature begs for options. Attempts at monopolies fail - the authoritarian structure become corrupt over time, and people beg for something different when the monopoly inevitably fails to meet someone's particular needs. One way cannot last and will fragment into many. So why try and force a monopoly of religion (or irreligion) in the first place?
  • There's no way to know if something is the "One True Way". Many hearken to the notion of one religion for all (or no religions for anyone) because they want certainty. There is no such certainty to be had. If there is a "best" or "right" way, we'll never agree on what that is or know if we've found it. We can only know what is "best" or "right" for us and our communities right now... and that answer can chance over time. A monopoly doesn't give you options when your needs change.
Thoughts?

I don't like the one-religion view, the diversity, nor the no religion but if I had to chose it would be diversity.

One religion is, as I agree with the article, more authoritative. I call it political. I don't see a separation in history and today. A big example is the "The Church Still Stands". Christianity, all denominational and non denominational all have influence over the laws of American (since I live in the States) and I highly dislike it. That, and it influences individual people since people aren't seperates from the whole. We judge them, we judge ourselves.

With no religion, people would loose their sense of self. Think of why a Pagan beliefs what you(all) do. It doesn't need to be abrahamics to call it a religion in the basic definition of the word. It's something of importance (aka divinity) and it may help you see the world as X and others Y and others Z. So no religion would take out people's sense of self on relation to themselves and the nature of their environment and people in it.

As for diversity, I see that as an issue too. Unless we changes the tenants of abrahamics faiths (I don't think others outside that has historical issues) so they won't contradict each other. For example, a JW won't be fussing at a Catholic over doctrinal issues rather than celebrating diversity under the love of Jesus Christ. There is separation in diversity when it comes to religion.

So, to uphold that view, there needs to be some sort of "meeting" to which people work together. They still believe in their gods but don't see other people as slaves to their gods. We can still have cultural religions as long as those religious are open to differing views as well. When people feel shut in its hard to live diversity. We can talk about it all day but unless people open up a bit eastern, abrahamics, European, whatever then I think there is something worth looking at in diversity.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
In mathematics, maybe. We're talking about people and reality. The Spanish Inquisition doesn't get removed from history by opening X number of soup-kitchens. That's not how it works. Nothing removes it from history. Ever. Nothing removes the soup-kitchens either.
I never wrote a word about erasing anything. You are arguing a point that you raised yourself.

Moreover, you are refusing to admit that some factors outweigh others in their impact. For example, I think my observation that religion's ability to divide humanity into thousands of quarreling sects --the cause of centuries of war and persecution--would weigh heavily in the minds of impartial readers.

That isn't what you asked for, actually. If you had, I would have said nothing.

My original post is there. Read it.


Not in the slightest. Nor do I expect to speak for Quintessence who is more than capable of that. Your question coupled with the previous commentary about divisiveness created a double-standard. I noticed and pointed it out. Anyone interested in honest debate would have immediately backed up on that. What did you do? First, you try to shift the blame to the OP with some quick editing. Now, you're trying to say you were only ever asking for "something amazing that would be lost" but you already know that's incredibly simple to produce, so why would you have asked for it?

Its better to concede the point than to try and cheat. Don't you know that?
People who find it easy to accuse others of characters flaws usually have those flaws. The psychologists call it "projecting." Do you cheat often?

What you're calling "cheating" was edit to a post which I added after I realized why you were accusing me of a double standard. It was simply a further explanation intended to correct your misunderstanding..

Here's his claim again:

"All religions have something beautiful to offer. Further, the ways in which these religions are beautiful are different. That is, if you remove any one of them, you loose something amazing."

We don't know what they are, but they're beautiful, different and amazing. So, I asked: "Can you give us say three examples of beautiful things that religion, and only religion, have given the world?" That's a reasonable request given his exaggerated claim.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
The article the OP is inspired by mentions some, and I didn't think it was necessary to include any because they are incredibly obvious to anyone who has spent even a moment or two examining the world's religions. If the beauty in the world's religions somehow aren't incredibly obvious to someone, they're so hopelessly cynical that no examples will satisfy. They're blind to the architectural beauty of temples, deaf to the music of hymns and chants, and insensate to the rhythms of trance dancing or meditation. And somehow think nothing of value would be lost by them all being gone. My brain can't even process that level of cynicism, honestly.

It's well established that beauty is "in the eye of the beholder." It's subjective. So, when you claim the beauty in the world's religions should be "incredibly obvious," it's incredibly obvious that you're exaggerating.


So, if I don't see the beauty in those things that you see beauty in, I must be a hopeless cynic and not just someone with a different subjective opinion on those things. And yet you think of yourself as someone who values diversity.
 
Last edited:

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
I never wrote a word about erasing anything. You are arguing a point that you raised yourself.

No, I'm arguing that good and bad don't balance against each other. I am using the fact that they don't erase each other as an example. I'm not speaking for you. I'm illustrating my point.

Moreover, you are refusing to admit that some factors outweigh others in their impact. For example, I think my observation that religion's ability to divide humanity into thousands of quarreling sects --the cause of centuries of war and persecution--would weigh heavily in the minds of impartial readers.

Again the stipulation is that it is religion and ONLY religion. Do you truly think religion and ONLY religion is the cause for centuries if war and persecution? I'm certain you do not think that. Why then must the demonstrable beauty of religion be limited to religion and ONLY religion as you stipulate within your following question?

My original post is there. Read it.
I even quoted it back to you, so yeah.

People who find it easy to accuse others of characters flaws usually have those flaws. The psychologists call it "projecting." Do you cheat often?

Not even to get 30 lives on Contra.

What you're calling "cheating" was edit to a post which I added after I realized why you were accusing me of a double standard. It was simply a further explanation intended to correct your misunderstanding..

No, I'm calling the double standard cheating. Your edit was just funny.

Here's his claim again:

"All religions have something beautiful to offer. Further, the ways in which these religions are beautiful are different. That is, if you remove any one of them, you loose something amazing."

We don't know what they are, but they're beautiful, different and amazing. So, I asked: "Can you give us say three examples of beautiful things that religion, and only religion, have given the world?" That's a reasonable request given his exaggerated claim.

Except the exaggeration is yours. The claim is talking about uniqueness, not exclusivity.

My issue is with the incongruence of your standards. You have no problem pinning war and oppression on religion despite innumerable other additional factors that contribute to war and oppression (such as basic human greed, for example) but when you call for religious beauty you reverse the standard and ask for beauty that only religion contains.

If I am mistaken then I offer Michaelangelo's David as my first example. Irreplaceable beauty caused by religion.

Here's a tougher one. The Chronicles of Narnia.

And finally, the Psalms.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
I can't even limit myself to only one religion, so how in the heck could I expect the whole world to adhere to only one religion?
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
So, you are denying the obvious: religion has succeeded in dividing humanity up into thousands of quarreling sects?

I would say politics is a far more divisive force full of quarrelling sects. No one is calling for the abolition of government because of it.


If not the goal of global harmony, then what motive drives you to suggest that the diversity of religion is a positive thing for humanity? Positive how if it doesn't help us get along better?
One could ask the same thing about governments and political systems.


 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Every so often, someone will voice the opinion that the world would be better off if everybody followed some particular religion. The reasons why someone supposes this vary somewhat, but essentially boil down to the belief that this religion is the best way or even the only true way. Similar opinions are voiced in the name of irreligion when we hear someone state the world would be better off if nobody followed any religions at all. That opinion also holds the assumption that their way is the best way or perhaps the only true way. In both cases, accepting these opinions as true would mean discarding any potential value that religious diversity has for humanity. That's quite the tall order indeed, as it doesn't take much to recognize that many religions - religious diversity - makes for a better world than one religion or none at all.

There are various ways one could argue the case for this, but I'm going to borrow from an author I read regularly who is the inspiration for this thread. The list below is inspired by that work, but also different from it, but to give credit where credit is due, that article is here (A World With Many Religions is Better Than a World With Only One).

  • All religions have something beautiful to offer. Further, the ways in which these religions are beautiful are different. That is, if you remove any one of them, you loose something amazing. This isn't to say all these religions don't also have their ugly sides, but is it really worth loosing that beauty to remove some blemishes? Talk about throwing out the seeds with the soil.
  • One religion (or none at all) is not a sustainable condition. History shows us what happens when humans lack choices, as our nature begs for options. Attempts at monopolies fail - the authoritarian structure become corrupt over time, and people beg for something different when the monopoly inevitably fails to meet someone's particular needs. One way cannot last and will fragment into many. So why try and force a monopoly of religion (or irreligion) in the first place?
  • There's no way to know if something is the "One True Way". Many hearken to the notion of one religion for all (or no religions for anyone) because they want certainty. There is no such certainty to be had. If there is a "best" or "right" way, we'll never agree on what that is or know if we've found it. We can only know what is "best" or "right" for us and our communities right now... and that answer can chance over time. A monopoly doesn't give you options when your needs change.
Thoughts?

I find all three points agreeable. I add that splendorous multiplicity, often to the point of friction, is an inevitability for the world. One cannot taste or experience an uniform homogeneous existence-consciousness.
...
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
This is a false premise.
The argument against religion simply needs to point out that religion's one undeniable accomplishment is its division of humanity into thousands of quarreling sects; and, as such, is a major obstacle in humanity's quest for global harmony.

The opposite actually. Recognition of diversity and acceptance of it all by realising the essential unity of all diverse names-forms helps to reduce divisiveness, inherent in ego existence.

A big claim but what are you talking about? Can you give us say three examples of beautiful things that religion, and only religion, have given the world?

You seem to have a very cynical view. The teachings leading to opening of the mind's eye to something higher than the ego is itself beautiful.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I think this is just a hypothetical question since we will never know which system might work out better for humanity. It was almost inevitable that religions arose - they all seem to have much the same origins and trajectory - but they have probably caused more division than almost anything else (and horrors) - because the beliefs are so fundamental. I have given thirty reasons why I see religions as being more detrimental than having beneficial influences (in my journal), and we don't appear to be that close to reconciling them all to living in peace and having a broad agreement on how we should live. It might just get worse in fact. Like to gamble on this? Does one need to be reminded that strength of numbers is no indication as to the truthfulness or value of any particular belief. Is it so hard to imagine that those living quite successfully without such beliefs are no different from all the rest - and where the same benefits might accrue from ditching said beliefs? One less reason to fight one's neighbour.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
People make beautiful out of religion, if they are not fundamentalists and extremists. Otherwise i dont see the beauty in many religions. Religion would be beautiful if it weren't so conformist, and full of nauseating doctrines that oppress.

How many religions follow after evidence and reason to correct their practices? Hardly any.

Religion is a dinosaur as currently practiced.

I hope for better religion with the progress science and technology are making. Agnosticism is the healthiest perspective.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think this is just a hypothetical question since we will never know which system might work out better for humanity.

Except God has given a message and told us what is best for all of us in this age.

We are in a time of transition, finding our unity.

Peace be with you.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Except God has given a message and told us what is best for all of us in this age.

We are in a time of transition, finding our unity.

Peace be with you.
Have you read the story of the Tower of Babel in the Bible book of Genesis?
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Similar opinions are voiced in the name of irreligion when we hear someone state the world would be better off if nobody followed any religions at all. That opinion also holds the assumption that their way is the best way or perhaps the only true way.
I don't claim to know whether or not the world would be a better place without religion. I can't help but think there would be one less thing to remain divided over, but who can know if it would be better?

I will simply always just find it sad that people feel the need to appeal to (much more likely than not) imaginary friends that they insist know better than they do how to live their lives.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't claim to know whether or not the world would be a better place without religion. I can't help but think there would be one less thing to remain divided over, but who can know if it would be better?

I will simply always just find it sad that people feel the need to appeal to (much more likely than not) imaginary friends that they insist know better than they do how to live their lives.

Ask yourself if we would have a better world if we lived to this standard;

"Be generous in prosperity, and thankful in adversity. Be worthy of the trust of thy neighbor, and look upon him with a bright and friendly face. Be a treasure to the poor, an admonisher to the rich, an answerer of the cry of the needy, a preserver of the sanctity of thy pledge. Be fair in thy judgment, and guarded in thy speech. Be unjust to no man, and show all meekness to all men. Be as a lamp unto them that walk in darkness, a joy to the sorrowful, a sea for the thirsty, a haven for the distressed, an upholder and defender of the victim of oppression. Let integrity and uprightness distinguish all thine acts. Be a home for the stranger, a balm to the suffering, a tower of strength for the fugitive. Be eyes to the blind, and a guiding light unto the feet of the erring. Be an ornament to the countenance of truth, a crown to the brow of fidelity, a pillar of the temple of righteousness, a breath of life to the body of mankind, an ensign of the hosts of justice, a luminary above the horizon of virtue, a dew to the soil of the human heart, an ark on the ocean of knowledge, a sun in the heaven of bounty, a gem on the diadem of wisdom, a shining light in the firmament of thy generation, a fruit upon the tree of humility."

If you do agree, this what will be a achieved wity renewed Faith in God.

Peace be with you
 
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