Religious fervor or mental illness?

[Grandliseur]

And why is it that if I hear the voice of Julius Caesar I am deluded but if I hear the voice of Jesus Christ I am devout?

The subject is beyond nailing down without having access to the details of each case. I have heard of cases, don't remember when or about what, where people were warned to e.g. get out of some place, not go into some place, and it proved that those who did the opposite, were seriously hurt, or had clear indication of a loved one being in serious trouble prompting them to act, call on the phone, go see, etc.

So, while we have people who go about arguing loudly with themselves, without speaking on a phone, or to someone else, we have these other unexplained phenomena. In the cases I mentioned, if it turns out that the audible message, or premonition has value, obviously the person is not nuts, but something beyond our common experience is happening. Aren't twins particularly susceptible to this kind of phenomena?!

I have no expertise on the above. I have had prayers answered when in need though, but that was prayer followed by event that fit the prayer, never voices or such.

 

[siti]

The subject is beyond nailing down without having access to the details of each case. I have heard of cases, don't remember when or about what, where people were warned to e.g. get out of some place, not go into some place, and it proved that those who did the opposite, were seriously hurt, or had clear indication of a loved one being in serious trouble prompting them to act, call on the phone, go see, etc.

So, while we have people who go about arguing loudly with themselves, without speaking on a phone, or to someone else, we have these other unexplained phenomena. In the cases I mentioned, if it turns out that the audible message, or premonition has value, obviously the person is not nuts, but something beyond our common experience is happening. Aren't twins particularly susceptible to this kind of phenomena?!

I have no expertise on the above. I have had prayers answered when in need though, but that was prayer followed by event that fit the prayer, never voices or such.

I have no expertise either - but I do think it might be useful to be able to differentiate between a genuine religious experience and a manifestation of delusional exuberance (if there is a difference). Don't you?

 

[Grandliseur]

I have no expertise either - but I do think it might be useful to be able to differentiate between a genuine religious experience and a manifestation of delusional exuberance (if there is a difference). Don't you?

The one on the sideline shall always wonder, I suppose. But, some cases are quite obviously cases of illness.

In this, I think the materialist at a disadvantage, since it seems there is no room in this mindset for any consideration of the extraordinary events that seem to happen now and then. I have read about car accidents where the occupant was found outside the car that was under water, or on fire, yet, no doors or windows had been opened - unusual events without any way of explaining what happened.

I just scratch my head on some of these. I cannot explain these but they don't violate my paradigm.

 

[siti]

I just scratch my head on some of these.

There! I knew we'd find common ground eventually!

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The mental illness that might be associated with pathological religious fervor probably isn't too much of a threat to anybody but the afflicted. If you think that the pope is trying to contact you through your dental fillings, or stand on the street corner angrily shaking your fist at the sky while shouting at it, you probably aren't a public threat.

Of course, I am excluding people like Robert Lewis Dear, who shot up a Planned Parenthood clinic after hearing how "babies" were being sacrificed for parts and profit. Some people would call any such person mentally ill based on the criminal act alone, but I don't.

The kinds of mental illnesses that you need to be on the lookout for are personality disorders and sociopathy / psychopathy. These people often appear mentally healthy, but will degrade your life if you let them in a way that a religiously ill person probably couldn't. And they often learn how to use religion to their benefit, so may appear with Bible in hand.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Atheists are just as likely to be mentally ill, the idea that religion is an illness is just preposterous, I could just as easily claim not sensing a higher power is a form of mental illness.

Has anyone suggested religion is a mental illness in this thread?!?!

 

[Lyndon]

Has anyone suggested religion is a mental illness in this thread?!?!

go back to the OP

 

[Revoltingest]

go back to the OP

The OP addressed "religious fervor", rather than religion in general.
I assumed that "fervor" was about something different & more
extreme than just "religion" in general.
But I understand your taking offense. There are different kinds
of fervor....some mere dedication....some tin foil hatworthy.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

go back to the OP

I read the OP more than once, since so many people seemed to be jumping to unwarranted conclusions. The OP is not an attack on religion.

 

[Lyndon]

in your opinion

 

[Revoltingest]

in your opinion

It's a fact because he's staff.
(Staff are like gods....but more communicative, & less benevolent.)

 

[siti]

in your opinion

OK - how about mine then - here's what I wrote in my second post - since the early responses were already jumping to
the wrong conclusions:

And please - don't get me wrong - I am not denigrating religious people - that's not the point of the thread. Are the alternate views of reality that arise from 'voices in the head', visions,...etc. any more or less valid than the more mundane views of reality that emerge from science and logic?

Now if you are still inclined to contribute, maybe you might respond to that question.

 

[Ponder This]

OK - to skate out out onto even thinner ice...

Didn't Jesus literally hear God? And Moses? And Muhammad? For example.

And please - don't get me wrong - I am not denigrating religious people - that's not the point of the thread. Are the alternate views of reality that arise from 'voices in the head', visions,...etc. any more or less valid than the more mundane views of reality that emerge from science and logic?

Why is it that if I "hear God" I am probably "mad" - but if I completely accept the second or third hand account of someone else who "heard God" and then got a lot of other people to believe he had heard God, I am just "religious"?

Where is the boundary between religious fervor and mental illness? Is it just a matter of when it becomes an obstacle to "normal functioning"? But who defines "normal functioning"?

Voices in the head is not the same thing as religious fervor.
Religious fervor is Jesus clearing the money changers out of the temple with a bull whip because he is passionately offended by the irreligious nature of their presence.
Voices in the head is the devil telling Jesus to throw himself off the highest point of the temple... which he declines to do.

On the other hand, what is mental illness? Mental illness is whatever interferes with healthy functioning (not normal functioning). This is because many things that are not normal don't interfere with health. It is not normal to be as fast as Usain Bolt, but that doesn't mean Usain Bolt is not healthy. So hearing voices can't be said to be an illness unless it is disrupting well-being.

In fact, hearing voices is not uncommon and may or may not be associated with a mental health problem, according to UK's Mental Health Foundation.

If you want to make the case that people who believe the voices from other people's heads (say Muhammad) are mentally ill and not merely "religious" then you have to explain how the belief is disrupting either their healthy functioning or the well-being of others. It is important to differentiate between "madness" in the sense of someone doing things you personally don't consider normal and "madness" in the sense of someone who is a danger to himself or others.

 

[siti]

Voices in the head is not the same thing as religious fervor.
Religious fervor is Jesus clearing the money changers out of the temple with a bull whip because he is passionately offended by the irreligious nature of their presence.
Voices in the head is the devil telling Jesus to throw himself off the highest point of the temple... which he declines to do.

On the other hand, what is mental illness? Mental illness is whatever interferes with healthy functioning (not normal functioning). This is because many things that are not normal don't interfere with health. It is not normal to be as fast as Usain Bolt, but that doesn't mean Usain Bolt is not healthy. So hearing voices can't be said to be an illness unless it is disrupting well-being.

In fact, hearing voices is not uncommon and may or may not be associated with a mental health problem, according to UK's Mental Health Foundation.

If you want to make the case that people who believe the voices from other people's heads (say Muhammad) are mentally ill and not merely "religious" then you have to explain how the belief is disrupting either their healthy functioning or the well-being of others. It is important to differentiate between "madness" in the sense of someone doing things you personally don't consider normal and "madness" in the sense of someone who is a danger to himself or others.

All sensible comments - but is chasing the money changers out of the temple with a bull whip because of passionate opposition to what everyone else seemed to be OK with 'normal'? I reckon even the disciples must have been whispering to each other "Christ! What's he doing now" at that point. Suppose I took passionate exception to the pagan symbol of a Christmas tree being brought into the Church and go in with a chain saw to cut it up and throw it out just as the congregation is gathering for morning worship...what do you suppose the majority of the people in the Church would think about my mental health?

 

[JustWondering]

When people claim on one side that a singularity exploded, (black holes don't explode as a rule), and this became our universe, out of nothing, that this created out of chaos all things of order and life so complex we cannot comprehend it, where our brains are working data on a higher order than super computers, then I would say that I have a good argument for these people being completely nuts, absolutely raving insane.

The creator of this universe must obviously be more complex then the universe itself, which requires a creator to explain its existence. So what created the creator? Is there an endless line of creators?

If you answer with a nonsense statement like "god doesn't need a creator, he just exists", why can't the universe as we know it just exist? If gods can just exist without any reason or explanation than surely other things, that are much less complex like our universe, can just exist without reason or explanation too.

 

[Grandliseur]

If you answer with a nonsense statement like "god doesn't need a creator, he just exists", why can't the universe as we know it just exist? If gods can just exist without any reason or explanation than surely other things, that are much less complex like our universe, can just exist without reason or explanation too.

The basic problem here in red is simple. Science tells us generally that our universe has a beginning. Unless, you have another scientific way of explaining things, your supposition is quite dead.

As to God and his being, his existence, the question is likewise having a simple answer. We go with what is revealed to us. Once we go around, each one of us, having no beliefs except our homemade personal ones, exchanges like this become meaningless and serve no purpose.

On the other side of the coin, you have the fact that you and I do exist at the moment. For this to be true, and not false, it is obvious that something has had to exist for all eternity. Since I believe that complex material things do not make themselves, but need ID, God's existence is irrefutable in my mindset. If in your mindset, houses, computers, cars, and whatnot make themselves, well, perhaps god does not need to exist to you. In which case we have established what each of us believes in and can now see that nothing can be done about that, so let's go have a coffee.

 

[siti]

Science tells us generally that our universe has a beginning.

No it doesn't. What we know from science is that a significant event happened about 13.84bn years ago (or whatever the current 'best estimate' is) which gave rise to the emergence of the universe as we now observe it and simultaneously wiped out any possibility of detecting anything that might possibly have existed 'before' it. Beyond that is speculation.

 

[Grandliseur]

No it doesn't. What we know from science is that a significant event happened about 13.84bn years ago (or whatever the current 'best estimate' is) which gave rise to the emergence of the universe as we now observe it and simultaneously wiped out any possibility of detecting anything that might possibly have existed 'before' it. Beyond that is speculation.

Yet, the Big Bang is said to be the place where time began - all other things are speculation. Where or why the singularity exploded, inflated, is beyond anything we know. Science does not have any idea or theory as to what came before, as far as I remember.

If you have scientific theories on this, links, let me have them. I love to read about science. But, there is most likely little understanding or agreement about anything that came before or caused the Big Bang.

 

[siti]

Yet, the Big Bang is said to be the place where time began - all other things are speculation. Where or why the singularity exploded, inflated, is beyond anything we know. Science does not have any idea or theory as to what came before, as far as I remember.

If you have scientific theories on this, links, let me have them. I love to read about science. But, there is most likely little understanding or agreement about anything that came before or caused the Big Bang.

Actually the idea that the BB marks the beginning of time is speculation, the actual existence of a 'singularity' is speculation (as I think you noted yourself earlier in the thread)...anyway, don't take my word for it, here a few real physicists and cosmologists doing what scientists really do most of the time - admitting that they don't know...and then trying to think of a way to find out...

 

[Grandliseur]

Actually the idea that the BB marks the beginning of time is speculation, the actual existence of a 'singularity' is speculation (as I think you noted yourself earlier in the thread)...anyway, don't take my word for it, here a few real physicists and cosmologists doing what scientists really do most of the time - admitting that they don't know...and then trying to think of a way to find out...

I'll take some time out and look at it. Today I am swamped with posts. I'll try to make time tonight.