Religious fervor or mental illness?

[siti]

Discussions in another thread prompt me to post this. First, a link to a Scientific American article addressing the question: How Do You Distinguish between Religious Fervor and Mental Illness?

I know I'm skating on thin ice with many even approaching this subject, but I have a sneaking suspicion that there is a deep relationship between what we would normally consider as mental illness and 'religious fervor'.

The author of the article concludes "we need more to help guide us through the difficult circumstances in which mental health care and religion collide."

I wonder what RF people think? Can we help Dr. Morris define the boundaries between religious fervor and mental illness?

 

[Grandliseur]

I know I'm skating on thin ice with many even approaching this subject, but I have a sneaking suspicion that there is a deep relationship between what we would normally consider as mental illness and 'religious fervor'.

Truly, you are skating on no ice at all, just being kept up out of water by your beliefs.

When people claim on one side that a singularity exploded, (black holes don't explode as a rule), and this became our universe, out of nothing, that this created out of chaos all things of order and life so complex we cannot comprehend it, where our brains are working data on a higher order than super computers, then I would say that I have a good argument for these people being completely nuts, absolutely raving insane.

Thus, when the belief in ID corresponds with our day to day cause and effect, the attack on religious people for believing in God is absolutely unacceptable. You have the right to your beliefs, no matter how insane I think they may be, but let me be accorded the same right vis-a-vis yourself.

This subject is better left in Pandora's box unless it causes all kinds of warning messages on this website. It is a shame that some like to bring this subject up. That there exists mental illness, and a lot of things connected with this is true. But, let's get the ones who are ill treatment, and don't try to put others whose philosophies you don't agree with boxed into this kind of mentality.

Did you see a few days ago, someone had a post where he asked a 'spiritual entity' (Eric was it) to prove himself to the poster. Did you read what he said happened afterwards?

Around min 2 or so, interesting things happen.
Wonder how such things are dismissed by atheists since many of these things are caught on vid security cams:

 

[sayak83]

Truly, you are skating on no ice at all, just being kept up out of water by your beliefs.

When people claim on one side that a singularity exploded, (black holes don't explode as a rule), and this became our universe, out of nothing, that this created out of chaos all things of order and life so complex we cannot comprehend it, where our brains are working data on a higher order than super computers, then I would say that I have a good argument for these people being completely nuts, absolutely raving insane.

Thus, when the belief in ID corresponds with our day to day cause and effect, the attack on religious people for believing in God is absolutely unacceptable. You have the right to your beliefs, no matter how insane I think they may be, but let me be accorded the same right vis-a-vis yourself.

This subject is better left in Pandora's box unless it causes all kinds of warning messages on this website. It is a shame that some like to bring this subject up. That there exists mental illness, and a lot of things connected with this is true. But, let's get the ones who are ill treatment, and don't try to put others whose philosophies you don't agree with boxed into this kind of mentality.

Did you see a few days ago, someone had a post where he asked a 'spiritual entity' (Eric was it) to prove himself to the poster. Did you read what he said happened afterwards?

Around min 2 or so, interesting things happen.
Wonder how such things are dismissed by atheists since many of these things are caught on vid security cams:

This one is a known fake. Debunk it yourself
The Null Hypothesis.: A Rough Guide To Debunking Fake Ghost Videos.

 

[Grandliseur]

This one is a known fake.

Thank you. I think freedom to believe without being put in mental ill boxes is a must.

While I do believe that a Big Bang happened, I do not accept the explanations for it. Also, if we do accept science, then there should be no universe at all; of the 4 nothings, the absolute nothing should be what we had, but don't. We have a universe contrary to what science expects. (matter antimatter problem)

 

[Curious George]

Discussions in another thread prompt me to post this. First, a link to a Scientific American article addressing the question: How Do You Distinguish between Religious Fervor and Mental Illness?

I know I'm skating on thin ice with many even approaching this subject, but I have a sneaking suspicion that there is a deep relationship between what we would normally consider as mental illness and 'religious fervor'.

The author of the article concludes "we need more to help guide us through the difficult circumstances in which mental health care and religion collide."

I wonder what RF people think? Can we help Dr. Morris define the boundaries between religious fervor and mental illness?

Does that perfectionist you know really suffer from obsessive compulsive disorder? Is that one employee who likes to argue suffering from oppositional defiant disorder?

I think the general concern is when a condition impedes everyday life. If you literally hear god chances are something is wrong. As we scale up the fervor level of anything we will eventually get to a point where we see problems. As long as a person is not causing or threatening to cause harm to oneself or others, they should be free to choose or forgo treatment as they see fit.

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

This is trouble water we would be stepping into. But I see someone twisting this saying that all religious people are mentally ill, but who knows really. I'm not a license physician just a **** poet managing a eatery.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

that a singularity exploded, (black holes don't explode as a rule

I don't want to derail the thread but I've seen you post this multiple times. Two problems with this:
All black holes are singularities, not all singularities are black holes, just like all oranges are fruit but not all fruits are oranges. Nobody that I'm aware of thinks the big bang had anything to do with black holes except how they might relate to white holes. And not even many think that since hawking radiation was discovered.

Also, they don't believe in an explosion, but an expansion. Like a very, very large balloon being inflated.

 

[Grandliseur]

not all singularities are black holes

which singularities in our universe are not black holes?

You can always post it on a conversation if you don't want to de-thread.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Most if not any ideology can be taken to destructive, obsessive extremes. I'd be more interested to know if more people with psycological illness gravitate towards religion to find some semblance of control and peace, then become extremely defensive and volatile over it.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

which singularities in our universe are not black holes?

You can always post it on a conversation if you don't want to de-thread.

Without getting into too much detail, most black holes are curvature singularities. Conical singularities, such as cosmic strings and wormholes, are a different category. The singularity prior to the big bang is another category.

 

[sayak83]

Thank you. I think freedom to believe without being put in mental ill boxes is a must.

While I do believe that a Big Bang happened, I do not accept the explanations for it. Also, if we do accept science, then there should be no universe at all; of the 4 nothings, the absolute nothing should be what we had, but don't. We have a universe contrary to what science expects. (matter antimatter problem)

My comments were for the you tube video only. I don't know enough about specific mental illnesses that have quasi-religious experiences to comment on this topic.

 

[siti]

If you literally hear god chances are something is wrong.

OK - to skate out out onto even thinner ice...

Didn't Jesus literally hear God? And Moses? And Muhammad? For example.

And please - don't get me wrong - I am not denigrating religious people - that's not the point of the thread. Are the alternate views of reality that arise from 'voices in the head', visions,...etc. any more or less valid than the more mundane views of reality that emerge from science and logic?

Why is it that if I "hear God" I am probably "mad" - but if I completely accept the second or third hand account of someone else who "heard God" and then got a lot of other people to believe he had heard God, I am just "religious"?

Where is the boundary between religious fervor and mental illness? Is it just a matter of when it becomes an obstacle to "normal functioning"? But who defines "normal functioning"?

 

[Grandliseur]

I don't want to derail the thread but I've seen you post this multiple times. Two problems with this:
All black holes are singularities, not all singularities are black holes, just like all oranges are fruit but not all fruits are oranges. Nobody that I'm aware of thinks the big bang had anything to do with black holes except how they might relate to white holes. And not even many think that since hawking radiation was discovered.

Also, they don't believe in an explosion, but an expansion. Like a very, very large balloon being inflated.

I checked this site:
Singularities - Black Holes and Wormholes - The Physics of the Universe
It mentions nothing about non-black hole singularities.

Also, your inflation versus explosion is just a matter of jargon, a technicality. The fact of the matter is that the inflation occurred at much higher speed than any explosion. If you check the definition of an explosion, you would understand why in the Big Bang, we have a 'bang' .

 

[Grandliseur]

Without getting into too much detail, most black holes are curvature singularities. Conical singularities, such as cosmic strings and wormholes, are a different category. The singularity prior to the big bang is another category.

A source would have been good.

I gave you a source. I will look at wormholes and such being defined as singularities. The word is employed even in AI awareness, so a bit of sieving is obviously necessary.

 

[Grandliseur]

My comments were for the you tube video only. I don't know enough about specific mental illnesses that have quasi-religious experiences to comment on this topic.

I got that.

I still resent this implication. It means that the atheist/s considers nearly all of humanity mentally ill while he himself, themselves are not. It speaks for itself who is thus and therefore mentally ill. Frankly, that subject should be stricken from this website as inflammatory and insulting to so many. It should be reported and enforced by the moderators.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I checked this site:
Singularities - Black Holes and Wormholes - The Physics of the Universe
It mentions nothing about non-black hole singularities.

Also, your inflation versus explosion is just a matter of jargon, a technicality. The fact of the matter is that the inflation occurred at much higher speed than any explosion. If you check the definition of an explosion, you would understand why in the Big Bang, we have a 'bang' .

A source would have been good.

I gave you a source. I will look at wormholes and such being defined as singularities. The word is employed even in AI awareness, so a bit of sieving is obviously necessary.

Here is some places to start:
Gravitational singularity - Wikipedia

There are different types of singularities, each with different physical features which have characteristics relevant to the theories in which they originally emerged from, such as the different shape of the singularities, conical and curved.

An example of such a conical singularity is a cosmic string

The site you linked is pretty basic, as is the wiki page, but gives an overview into the fact that singularities are more diverse and more complicated than just black holes.

Here's some more:
Is the Big Bang a black hole?
Big Bang: Expansion, NOT Explosion
Black Holes Could Be 'Back Doors' to Another Universe, Say Physicists < talking about naked singularities and wormholes with or without black holes.

 

[sayak83]

I got that.

I still resent this implication. It means that the atheist/s considers nearly all of humanity mentally ill while he himself, themselves are not. It speaks for itself who is thus and therefore mentally ill. Frankly, that subject should be stricken from this website as inflammatory and insulting to so many. It should be reported and enforced by the moderators.

Please consider posting this in site feedback. But what about those believers who believe other religious groups worship demons or are going to hell? Is that not inflammatory too?

 

[siti]

Geez, my thread seems not only to be skating on thin ice but disappearing down a black hole as well...

 

[sayak83]

Discussions in another thread prompt me to post this. First, a link to a Scientific American article addressing the question: How Do You Distinguish between Religious Fervor and Mental Illness?

I know I'm skating on thin ice with many even approaching this subject, but I have a sneaking suspicion that there is a deep relationship between what we would normally consider as mental illness and 'religious fervor'.

The author of the article concludes "we need more to help guide us through the difficult circumstances in which mental health care and religion collide."

I wonder what RF people think? Can we help Dr. Morris define the boundaries between religious fervor and mental illness?

How can nonexperts do that?

 

[siti]

How can nonexperts do that?

We're all experts in what we believe - I am not asking for a professional psych evaluation guide - or intending to insult religious people. I actually think @Grandliseur has a point about the singularities thing - we don't have any objective evidence that such things really exist (at least not as dimensionless points at any rate which description really equates to non-existence) - so what really is the difference - in psychological terms between believing in non-existent entities that emerge from mathematics and believing in non-existent entities that emerge from religious traditions or mystical experiences? Its a conversation I was hoping for, not a demonization of either religion on the one hand or mental illness on the other.