Notanumber
A Free Man
I will defer to him because he is more of an expert than I am.
If you have all the answers, why don’t you claim the reward?
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For those who think that prophet Mohammad was a pedophile
- Thread starter FearGod
- Start date
I will defer to him because he is more of an expert than I am.
If you have all the answers, why don’t you claim the reward?
The Emperor of Mankind
Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
Fair enough.
Sorry, LOH, but this statement holds no weight outside of the echo chamber you made it in. Non-Bahais (including Muslims) don't believe these men are Manifestations of God so their opinions are about as valuable as the average layman. Probably less as they're making extraordinary claims with no supporting evidence at all.
It's also worth considering that these claims were the result of political reality; that if Baha'u'llah & the Bab would have been put to death immediately if they had said otherwise. Sadly this didn't save them in the end...
I think some people may be becoming confused here.
1. Muhammad was not a paedophile. This is because most of his wives were of age, and he didn't seem to have an exclusive interest in children. A paedophile is a person who is only attracted to children, cannot have normal relations with women and has no desire to. This in mind, Muhammad marrying one minor does not make him a paedophile.
2. Paedophiles lose interest once a child is over 10, and hebephiles over about 14. As far as we can tell, and as far as the ahadith record, Aisha was 18 when Muhammad died and he never lost any interest in her. In fact, iirc, he died in her arms.
3. Muhammad consummated his marriage to A'isha when she was 9. This is clearly the worst part, and we know also that A'isha had no children either. Still, as I don't believe that Muhammad was a prophet and therefore not the moral standard, it doesn't bother me.
tl:dr, Muhammad wasn't a paedophile, just a product of his time.
1. Muhammad was not a paedophile. This is because most of his wives were of age, and he didn't seem to have an exclusive interest in children. A paedophile is a person who is only attracted to children, cannot have normal relations with women and has no desire to. This in mind, Muhammad marrying one minor does not make him a paedophile.
2. Paedophiles lose interest once a child is over 10, and hebephiles over about 14. As far as we can tell, and as far as the ahadith record, Aisha was 18 when Muhammad died and he never lost any interest in her. In fact, iirc, he died in her arms.
3. Muhammad consummated his marriage to A'isha when she was 9. This is clearly the worst part, and we know also that A'isha had no children either. Still, as I don't believe that Muhammad was a prophet and therefore not the moral standard, it doesn't bother me.
tl:dr, Muhammad wasn't a paedophile, just a product of his time.
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That may depend on what standards one expects of the Prophet, and how much truth there is in the claim (wihich is made by critics of Islaam that claim and show a lot of evidence of having studied the matter seriously) that Muhammad is an example of the perfect Muslim.
I don't really believe it, but by that point you are arguing that maybe Islaam became obsolete at that point in time.
Great. Now we are discussing how honorable a certain kind of lie might have been. A lie about a person that could never deserve the exalted reverence that he enjoys in the first place.
Maybe we should all avoid wasting so much effort and just refuse to lend significance to the whole matter?
Carry on without me if you feel that it is worth the trouble, folks. I have better things to do with my time.
There is that as well. Scriptures are inherently limited, as I well know.
One of these days I will decide to leave this wasteful activity behind me for good. Be it for Ahadith, Qur'an, Bible or even my beloved comicbooks.
And yet they remain necessary, in a culture that emphasize the need for justifying everything.
It is a magistral example of self-inflicted problem to solve a self-inflicted need.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Speak your own ideas and your own research and study, if you don't have
then you only copying and pasting the other opinions, so what to debate?
They did kill the Bab because He claimed to be a Prophet of God after Muhammad and exiled Baha'u'llah.
I'm more than happy to accept Baha'u'llah's Words where Muhammad is concerned whatever others may think.
Notanumber
A Free Man
What is the point?
You obviously do not have all the answers or you would claim the reward.
Why don’t you ask your Imam for the answers and you could split the reward with him.
Sometimes the worst critics of Muhammad for having muliple wives (including Aisha) are Christians or those from a Western culture. Perhaps this is a way of discrediting Islam. However leaders in the OT such as King David and Solomon had multiple wives and concubines. Some prophets too. I'm not aware of any age of consent in the Old Testament for marriage. It was such unimaginably different times it's an unfair comparison. Besides Aisha went on to be one of the outstanding women of her day promoting Islam.
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Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
There was no concept of paedophilia at the time of Mohamed.
Peoples all over the world married at almost any age, some were promised in marriage as babies and "Married" before their teens. "Christians" were no different. Nor were the even earlier civilisations.
in England, people who had reached a marriageable stage were called "Nubile". This was not measured in years but by physical maturity.
I am sure Mohamed was not in any sense a paedophile, what ever the age of his wife.
The idea that we should apply the laws and social standards of today to earlier times is clearly wrong.
Not only that.
Some times Social standards and the letter of the law are considerably out of step.
As is found in in recent historical legal cases of paedophilia and sexual law breaking.
It is true that they have mostly involved the famous and powerful falling from grace. But they were not acting in a vacuum. What they did was largely the social norm of the time. and the "seduction" of Females of all ages was for many, the norm.
A similar disjoint has applied to the treatment of Homosexuals. Those that were persecuted by the law in the past have now had their convictions overturned and pardoned.
To day Law has largely lost its sense of "time" and is applied on a somewhat random basis. Mostly following the most recent public sense of outrage, rather than the mores of the time.
Mohammed was a man of his time.
Peoples all over the world married at almost any age, some were promised in marriage as babies and "Married" before their teens. "Christians" were no different. Nor were the even earlier civilisations.
in England, people who had reached a marriageable stage were called "Nubile". This was not measured in years but by physical maturity.
I am sure Mohamed was not in any sense a paedophile, what ever the age of his wife.
The idea that we should apply the laws and social standards of today to earlier times is clearly wrong.
Not only that.
Some times Social standards and the letter of the law are considerably out of step.
As is found in in recent historical legal cases of paedophilia and sexual law breaking.
It is true that they have mostly involved the famous and powerful falling from grace. But they were not acting in a vacuum. What they did was largely the social norm of the time. and the "seduction" of Females of all ages was for many, the norm.
A similar disjoint has applied to the treatment of Homosexuals. Those that were persecuted by the law in the past have now had their convictions overturned and pardoned.
To day Law has largely lost its sense of "time" and is applied on a somewhat random basis. Mostly following the most recent public sense of outrage, rather than the mores of the time.
Mohammed was a man of his time.
The Emperor of Mankind
Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
This doesn't really defeat the argument that Muhammad molested a child. At best all it shows is that, in opposition to the claims of him being a moral exemplar that Muslims make, he is really no better or worse than anyone else of his time. And that's where the problem lies: Muslims try to have their cake & eat it. 'Muhammad was perfect, without flaw etc but we'll use the immoral kuffar of his time as a benchmark for his behaviour so that when he does do reprehensible things we can excuse them away'.
This assumes that the laws concerning marriage today such as number of spouses and age of marriage are universal for all time. They are not. Instead laws change in accordance with the exigencies of the time. There were different marriage laws for the Judaic, Christian, and Islamic Faiths. This does not lessen the Divine Station of any of them.
Here's the thing:
Muhammad is seen as the greatest moral example for all time.
So anything he does, Muslims are supposed to emulate today.
firedragon
Veteran Member
No. A child could and should not be married off.
The notion that young daughters could be married off to older men comes from a famous story that the prophet Muhammed married a young girl of 6 and consummated the marriage at the age of 9. This was Aisha, the daughter of his friend and closest companion Abu Bakr. At this time Muhammed would have been around 53 years old. Both, Muslims who want the marriage of minors left open, and those who like to criticize Islam as a religion encouraging pedophilia, both use this Hadith (Narrations or stories) for their benefit. They believe or want to believe this is an accurate account of what truly transpired.
Leaving aside the fact this story was recorded based on word of mouth narratives through 8 generations or more (230 years at least after the death of the prophet Muhammed) and could be incredibly doubtful in authenticity, and that some Muslim scholars estimate her age closer to 19 based on analysis of timelines based on the same hadith sources, one must look at the Quran which is supposed to be the criterion (Furqan) for Islamic law and system.
The Quran explicitly states in verse 4:6 that when you are in charge of orphans and you are the guardian, let them reach appropriate age for marriage (Balaghul Niakaha) and you perceive in them sound judgement or maturity (Rushdan) then give them their wealth. This verse maybe speaking about orphans but it also indicates that the age of marriage is when they reach a certain maturity enough to manage their own finances. Mature enough to make available their funds or/and inheritances for themselves to manage.
The ability to manage their own finances or inheritance is highly doubtful in a 12-year-old or even a 16-year-old (definitely not a 6-year-old) unless one argues that 1400 years ago little children were mature very young, a fruitless argument in this current age.
A human’s life as a process or journey is briefly cited in a verse in the Quran (40:67) where maturity is denoted by the Arabic word Ashaddakum coming from the root Shadad. This word means full strength or full growth insinuating an age where you have fully grown.
Taking all of this (many other verses not discussed here) into account the age of marriage for a person has three measures (At least) to consider in the Quran.
· Sound judgement
· Mature enough to manage their own finances
Of course, there will be those who dispute this based on certain skewed views like quoting another verse or extra Quranic stories which one must consider again prior to going there, this is the Quran Muslims vehemently claim is the Furqan or the Criterion.
The notion that young daughters could be married off to older men comes from a famous story that the prophet Muhammed married a young girl of 6 and consummated the marriage at the age of 9. This was Aisha, the daughter of his friend and closest companion Abu Bakr. At this time Muhammed would have been around 53 years old. Both, Muslims who want the marriage of minors left open, and those who like to criticize Islam as a religion encouraging pedophilia, both use this Hadith (Narrations or stories) for their benefit. They believe or want to believe this is an accurate account of what truly transpired.
Leaving aside the fact this story was recorded based on word of mouth narratives through 8 generations or more (230 years at least after the death of the prophet Muhammed) and could be incredibly doubtful in authenticity, and that some Muslim scholars estimate her age closer to 19 based on analysis of timelines based on the same hadith sources, one must look at the Quran which is supposed to be the criterion (Furqan) for Islamic law and system.
The Quran explicitly states in verse 4:6 that when you are in charge of orphans and you are the guardian, let them reach appropriate age for marriage (Balaghul Niakaha) and you perceive in them sound judgement or maturity (Rushdan) then give them their wealth. This verse maybe speaking about orphans but it also indicates that the age of marriage is when they reach a certain maturity enough to manage their own finances. Mature enough to make available their funds or/and inheritances for themselves to manage.
The ability to manage their own finances or inheritance is highly doubtful in a 12-year-old or even a 16-year-old (definitely not a 6-year-old) unless one argues that 1400 years ago little children were mature very young, a fruitless argument in this current age.
A human’s life as a process or journey is briefly cited in a verse in the Quran (40:67) where maturity is denoted by the Arabic word Ashaddakum coming from the root Shadad. This word means full strength or full growth insinuating an age where you have fully grown.
Taking all of this (many other verses not discussed here) into account the age of marriage for a person has three measures (At least) to consider in the Quran.
· Sound judgement
· Mature enough to manage their own finances
Of course, there will be those who dispute this based on certain skewed views like quoting another verse or extra Quranic stories which one must consider again prior to going there, this is the Quran Muslims vehemently claim is the Furqan or the Criterion.
I agree that is a problem. The times have clearly changed. But similar criticisms can be made of Jews and Christians.
Was just going to post sura 4:6 myself.
It's funny how people are clutching desperately at straws to try and condemn Muhammad. There's no birth certificate, no marriage certificate that would show proof of age yet detractors are still desperate to detract!!
My wife is Burmese from a Burmese village. She has no idea what her real age is. About 40 years ago when the Burmese government registrar wanted everyone to get an identity card if they needed to travel, she turned up at the office and GUESSED her age and they registered her guess and recorded it and her passport and marriage certificate and citizenship papers are all based on a guess. She keeps telling me that she thinks she's 6 years older than what she told the government office. The same with her family. They don't know their birthdays and we have never celebrated them.
So if that was 40 years ago just think 1400 years ago. In order to marry in Islam, 'signs of maturity' had to be observed and not before. Puberty and a sound mind are a part of that process but figures written down at a time when records were not officially kept is common sense that one cannot build an ironclad case against Muhammad.
What happened to justice and fairness?
So if that was 40 years ago just think 1400 years ago. In order to marry in Islam, 'signs of maturity' had to be observed and not before. Puberty and a sound mind are a part of that process but figures written down at a time when records were not officially kept is common sense that one cannot build an ironclad case against Muhammad.
What happened to justice and fairness?
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
I don't know what you are talking about and also I don't need a reward as I have a lot
of money, praise be to Allah
It's one of those things where we need to be just. I can't judge and condemn a person on heresay. Taking the time to gather the correct information can be painstaking but how can I look myself in the mirror and call myself a man of truth if I'm unjust?
Justice comes first above everything even my likes and dislikes. I don't praise Muhammad or Zoroaster or the Prophets blindly but because justice told me they were true and justice matters more to me than anything else.
I cannot condemn an innocent man on a Hadith created 1400 years ago that is based on pure heresay and when there are other facts showing her age to be 19.
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