Your opinion please about Islam.

[YmirGF]

Islam is ultimately very difficult to justify.

Ideologically, it all but demands outright to be kept in entirely in check.

It is way too set on being led by scripture as opposed to religious wisdom - so much so that I no longer see fit to call it a religion at all.

Most Muslims are indeed peaceful, but that is ultimately a non-argument. Most people need some sort of provocation before becoming violent, after all.

The closest I can now come to defending it is pointing out that attempts at isolating from it are bound to backfire. We all need to build trust relationships. It scares me to see people who are already mistrusting and trigger-happy think of isolationism as a "solution".

One solution would be to cut off all military aid to all Muslim countries. Akin to closing the barn doors after the horses were three fields over, but it could not hurt.

 

[icehorse]

My opinion on Islam:

Islam needs to be reformed. Not so much because of terrorism, but because of the hundreds of millions of conservative Islamists who support some or all of the political, supremacist aspects of the ideology.

 

[metis]

Dealt with?
By whom?
How exactly?

Within our own group, we need to deal with radical elements that wish to cause harm, and social pressure can be effective. Outside of our own group, we do have the right of self defense.

 

[jeager106]

.Contrary to Muslim rhetoric that claims Islam means peace, the truth is that the word Islam does not mean peace, but "Submission".

Islam the religion of submission.

 

[jeager106]

My opinion on Islam:

Islam needs to be reformed. Not so much because of terrorism, but because of the hundreds of millions of conservative Islamists who support some or all of the political, supremacist aspects of the ideology.

Spot on but it won't happen.
Any Muslim trying to "reform" as you suggest would be eliminated if at all possible.

 

[jonathan180iq]

This religion claims 2.1 BILLION adherents.
Only 15% engage in and/or support violent jihad.
(What is 15% of 2.1 billion anyway?)
Members of Islam claim it to be the religion of peace.
Is it?
Thoughts please.
What other religious group supports or engages in promotion by violence in today's world?
Westboro Baptists for sure but they are a fundamentalist minority.

I don't know, thought members could help enlighten me.
Number of members of the W.B.Church.
Approximately 80, most of them family members.
http://www.answers.com/Q/How_many_members_in_westboro_baptist_church

Hardly a threat to the religious world though they are disgusting to me.
View attachment 14542

Horrible display of agape love what?

Frankly members of that "church" might be diagnosed with some form of
mental illness.
Wonder? What would Jesus have said about such displays of "Christianity"?
As an aside my sponsor in A.A. recovery is an openly gay man.
I love him in the agape sense.
He SAVED my life!
Gives me courage to maintain and enjoy an addiction free life.
Alcoholism KILLED both mother and father, several uncles, and is destroying
my sister, my only sibling.
Agape love for him don'cha'know.
I judge no one.
Not in my job description.
God's job you see.
I'm pretty much a Christian pacifist.
Caveat: I ain't stupid and go armed most all the time.

Are the people from Westboro Baptist Church real Christians?
Are Jihadists real Muslims?

The validity of these subcultures is determined by the consensus of the whole body of believers. That's just how social issues work.

 

[YmirGF]

Within our own group, we need to deal with radical elements that wish to cause harm, and social pressure can be effective. Outside of our own group, we do have the right of self defense.

Agreed. Now, if only we can convince the Muslim world of the same thing.

 

[metis]

Agreed. Now, if only we can convince the Muslim world of the same thing.

Many here have, but the biggest disappointment is that the "chorus" is all too quiet in the M.E. and Africa.

 

[LuisDantas]

.Contrary to Muslim rhetoric that claims Islam means peace, the truth is that the word Islam does not mean peace, but "Submission".

Islam the religion of submission.

Pretty much. Apart from "cultural" Muslims, which are difficult to measure, one sure can gauge from even the advocates of Islam that they don't so much aim to be a religion as to seek refuge into the certainty that the Qur'an says the truth and will assure their peace and/or triumph.

 

[YmirGF]

Many here have, but the biggest disappointment is that the "chorus" is all too quite in the M.E. and Africa.

Oh, I know. I never count those in North America or Europe as they are not the areas that need the work. No one in the areas that most need to hear are listening.

 

[metis]

Oh, I know. I never count those in North America or Europe as they are not the areas that need the work. No one in the areas that most need to hear are listening.

We still need work here as well, and the Europeans even more so.

 

[LuisDantas]

One solution would be to cut off all military aid to all Muslim countries. Akin to closing the barn doors after the horses were three fields over, but it could not hurt.

I wonder. Military adventurism is certainly not helping, but there is such a thing as being too involved to go back.

However, even a remarkable succesfull decision of military withdrawal would still be a non-complicator at best. True solutions must be found elsewhere, in the fields of diplomacy and dialog.

Not to imply that it will be easy or safe, mind you. It will not, not by a large margin.

My opinion on Islam:

Islam needs to be reformed. Not so much because of terrorism, but because of the hundreds of millions of conservative Islamists who support some or all of the political, supremacist aspects of the ideology.

True enough. Trouble is, there is not a whole lot to keep after that is done. It is no coincidence that former Muslims tend to become atheists as opposed to, say, Christians or Hindus. Islam suffers from self-imposed frailty.

 

[Rival]

I like it a lot.


Right?

 

[Laika]

This religion claims 2.1 BILLION adherents.
Only 15% engage in and/or support violent jihad.
(What is 15% of 2.1 billion anyway?)
Members of Islam claim it to be the religion of peace.
Is it?
Thoughts please.
What other religious group supports or engages in promotion by violence in today's world?
Westboro Baptists for sure but they are a fundamentalist minority.

I don't know, thought members could help enlighten me.
Number of members of the W.B.Church.
Approximately 80, most of them family members.
http://www.answers.com/Q/How_many_members_in_westboro_baptist_church

Hardly a threat to the religious world though they are disgusting to me.
View attachment 14542

Horrible display of agape love what?

Frankly members of that "church" might be diagnosed with some form of
mental illness.
Wonder? What would Jesus have said about such displays of "Christianity"?
As an aside my sponsor in A.A. recovery is an openly gay man.
I love him in the agape sense.
He SAVED my life!
Gives me courage to maintain and enjoy an addiction free life.
Alcoholism KILLED both mother and father, several uncles, and is destroying
my sister, my only sibling.
Agape love for him don'cha'know.
I judge no one.
Not in my job description.
God's job you see.
I'm pretty much a Christian pacifist.
Caveat: I ain't stupid and go armed most all the time.

I think Conservative Islam, as a belief that sharia law takes precedence over secular laws, is a problem. It's not unique as all religions and ideologies are capable of violence as the human beings who believe them. What we do about "radical Islam" says more about us than Muslims however. There is no short cut to getting people to accept western values. An Islamic reformation building on secular and liberal traditions of Islam giving a greater scope for individual interpretation cannot simply be a puppet for western imperialism and must be a grass roots movement for democratisation and secularisation in the Middle East. That will take years easily and more likely decades. The Arab Spring shows that such change is possible but there has been no firm indicators that the Arab Spring necessarily was liberal. It is especially true that violence will not be an effective tool to win "hearts and minds" and the west has to be careful to encourage conditions that promote democratisation (especially avoiding destabilising wars). Ultimately it comes down to the west breaking their oil addiction so conservative Islamic states can no longer fund and promote their ideologies. Reduce demand for oil and the uncertainties of middle eastern democracy won't be so threatening for the west. That won't solve the problem but it would go quite along way to help the situation.

My impression is that the Muslims on this forum may well be fed up of people talking about Islam when we really should be talking about Muslims. We have yet to make the leap of recognising that Muslims are individuals. It's easy to criticise an idea but much harder to criticise a person. We are often very insensitive to the fact that less individualistic cultures do not recognise that seperation and this throws up whole issues to do with the scope of free speech and what people find offensive. There isn't quite such a neat, hard distinction as people and ideas as we would like to think. This is not about rights but really about learning to live together and showing some respect in that criticisms of Islam pay sufficient respect to Muslims by being informed about what Islam really is and not simply reduce it to crude stereotypes of a monolithic dehumanised "enemy". the Internet as a globalising force throws alien and conflicting views together so we have to find some common ground if only to make the conflict arising from those differences manageable.

 

[LuisDantas]

I like it a lot.


Right?

Could have fooled me...

 

[LuisDantas]

I think Conservative Islam, as a belief that sharia law takes precedence over secular laws, is a problem. It's not unique as all religions and ideologies are capable of violence as the human beings who believe them.

I wonder why you think so. Not too many religions and ideologies declare outright that God assures them that they must conquer disagreers.

What we do about "radical Islam" says more about us than Muslims however. There is no short cut to getting people to accept western values. An Islamic reformation building on secular and liberal traditions of Islam giving a greater scope for individual interpretation cannot simply be a puppet for western imperialism and must be a grass roots movement for democratisation and secularisation in the Middle East. That will take years easily and more likely decades.

Generations, easily. And make no mistake. it will be perceived as imperalism by way of puppets no matter what. Islam does not allow for graceful questioning.

The Arab Spring shows that such change is possible but there has been no firm indicators that the Arab Spring necessarily was liberal. It is especially true that violence will not be an effective tool to win "hearts and minds" and the west has to be careful to encourage conditions that promote democratisation (especially avoiding destabilising wars). Ultimately it comes down to the west breaking their oil addiction so conservative Islamic states can no longer fund and promote their ideologies. Reduce demand for oil and the uncertainties of middle eastern democracy won't be so threatening for the west. That won't solve the problem but it would go quite along way to help the situation.

I suspect you are giving a bit too much importance to economic interests there, personally. And over-estimating the desire for questioning of most Islamic cultures. Don't forget that Hussein and the Assads are supposedly "radical" secularists by Muslim parameters.

My impression is that the Muslims on this forum may well be fed up of people talking about Islam when we really should be talking about Muslims.

I am sorry to say that while I think they must be fed up, the cause is the exact opposite - and says a lot more about Islam than it does about its critics.

We have yet to make the leap of recognising that Muslims are individuals. It's easy to criticise an idea but much harder to criticise a person. We are often very insensitive to the fact that less individualistic cultures do not recognise that seperation and this throws up whole issues to do with the scope of free speech and what people find offensive. There isn't quite such a neat, hard distinction as people and ideas as we would like to think. This is not about rights but really about learning to live together and showing some respect in that criticisms of Islam pay sufficient respect to Muslims by being informed about what Islam really is and not simply reduce it to crude stereotypes of a monolithic dehumanised "enemy". the Internet as a globalising force throws alien and conflicting views together so we have to find some common ground if only to make the conflict arising from those differences manageable.

I agree with the general gist of it, but I think you are being way too optimistic about the willingness of Muslim cultures to respect or promote individuality.

 

[Godobeyer]

If the USA hadn't been attacking people over there for decades we probably wouldn't have a problem.
Tom

I wish he could admit this fact.
on same time ,I don't justify for our idiots.

 

[Laika]

I wonder why you think so. Not too many religions and ideologies declare outright that God assures them that they must conquer disagreers.


Generations, easily. And make no mistake. it will be perceived as imperalism by way of puppets no matter what. Islam does not allow for graceful questioning.


I suspect you are giving a bit too much importance to economic interests there, personally. And over-estimating the desire for questioning of most Islamic cultures. Don't forget that Hussein and the Assads are supposedly "radical" secularists by Muslim parameters.

I am sorry to say that while I think they must be fed up, the cause is the exact opposite - and says a lot more about Islam than it does about its critics.


I agree with the general gist of it, but I think you are being way too optimistic about the willingness of Muslim cultures to respect or promote individuality.

The only reason I'd consider my post optimistic is that I believe an Islamic reformation must come from Muslims themselves. I don't view theocracy as innate to Islam or Muslims because I don't consider any system of government as innate. All systems can evolve, be reformed or be overthrown. I don't view Islamic states as a special case. The root of my optimism is in the belief that people can change.

 

[George-ananda]

Your opinion please about Islam.

Islam is a legitimate positive religion revealed from a realm above mankind through the prophet Mohammed. It lifted the barbaric state of the Arab world to one of order and civilization.

My opinion is that some people because of some errors developed in their hearts and mind have gotten fanatical to the point that reason and love no longer pervade. I also think Islam needs to evolve with the times as opposed to insisting on a way of life that might have been the most appropriate one for an Arab world society in 630 AD.

 

[jeager106]

The only reason I'd consider my post optimistic is that I believe an Islamic reformation must come from Muslims themselves. I don't view theocracy as innate to Islam or Muslims because I don't consider any system of government as innate. All systems can evolve, be reformed or be overthrown. I don't view Islamic states as a special case. The root of my optimism is in the belief that people can change.

Of course people can change IF they see a need for change and are willing.
Would Christians abandon Christianity?
Would Muslims abandon Islam?
No.
Christianity and Islam have been at war for at least 700 years.
This was will continue for one big reason.
Islam means submission.
Yes submission to the God of Islam.
Meaning EVERYONE submits to the God of Islam and the ways of Islam.
Period.
Jihad Report
Sep 10, 2016 -
Sep 16, 2016
Attacks 43 Killed 191 Injured 228 Suicide Blasts 6 Countries 14

ALL other religions combined?
ZERO
Islam IS at war to force submission to Islam.