Should Feminists be encouraging women to be strippers?

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Better than pole dancing protests?

You don't need to have one without the other.

 

[Poeticus]

Namaste,

I expect modern people to not make more of a resource than actually exists, such as using one or two sentences from an ancient historian known for relying on other historians as a basis for an argument that men obey women in a given society.

Let's re-write history books, then.

As an aside, I'm not particularly keen on repeatedly being called "dear", "Lady", or "Goddess" in a discussion.

Should have told me before.

I know the whole thread is about stripping. Your assertions are that if this was a matriarchy, it would be the reverse with a lot more male strip clubs.

Prove to me they wouldn't be..

I've provided examples of matriarchal societies that were rather egalitarian (ones where there is actually a lot of info), and pointed out the weakness of your sources that are based on single-sentence ancient statements about a whole culture.

Post them again, because I didn't see them.

This the direct quote from the first post of yours that I replied to:

"The same thing would happen in a matriarchal society, brah. It just would be men on the platforms, not women..."

This was a quote from you in another post:

"But, there will still be a sex trade in a matriarchal world (with the "strippers" being mostly men in this situation)."

Yeah, and so?

M.V.

ps - The burden of proof isn't always on the one making the claim; it is shifted to the one who raises the concern of factual accuracy; I provided some sources, but you denounced them without providing sources that would have denounced the ones that I put up. If I provide sources, it is your duty to factually disprove them by providing sources of your own.

 

[Poeticus]

Quite frankly, I'd rather there be a scene which is being regulated by some killjoy who is ensuring the worker's rights, rather than an unregulated "underground" scene where the worker/s are basically being directly abused.

Namaste,

But the "underground" scenes are "directed" illegally, right? Mainstream porn industries don't engage in the "underground" scenes because they have to follow the Federal regulations, right?

M.V.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

You don't need to have one without the other.

Good point. I'll write to the Chippendales and see if they're up for it.

 

[Penumbra]

Namaste,
Let's re-write history books, then.

Or stick to reliable, detailed sources when possible. If an assertion relies on unreliable and/or undetailed sources, it's probably the assertion that is the problem, not the source.

Should have told me before.

I had no reason to mention it until I saw it so many times; it's not a big deal. I didn't know it was going to be a pattern throughout the discussion.

But doesn't it come off as a little bit patronizing, in your view?

Prove to me they wouldn't be..

In the year 2030, pigs will fly. Prove that's not the case.

Point is, you made the assertion. I'm asking you to evidence it. There have been many matriarchal societies where that has not been the case.

Post them again, because I didn't see them.

Navajo and Hopi, being two examples.

Here's a list of matrilineal and matrilocal societies. It's a good start.

I encourage you to read through a bunch of them, and see what percentage of them have a female-dominant situation involving widespread male stripping, male sex trade, or significant social dominance of males by females.

Yeah, and so?

M.V.

So I'm reminding you of which assertions you made.

ps - The burden of proof isn't always on the one making the claim; it is shifted to the one who raises the concern of factual accuracy; I provided some sources, but you denounced them without providing sources that would have denounced the ones that I put up. If I provide sources, it is your duty to factually disprove them by providing sources of your own.

Check the list there, let me know which ones meet your claims.

 

[Aquitaine]

Namaste,

But the "underground" scenes are "directed" illegally, right? Mainstream porn industries don't engage in the "underground" scenes because they have to follow the Federal regulations, right?

M.V.

I guess, to a degree. But I do think the industry needs cleaning up, and better regulation. The workers need better rights and support available.

Don't worry, even in an ideal, well-regulated sex industry with full worker's rights and support etc, you'd still be able to find the movies interesting.

Plus you could watch/consume with a clear conscience! :yes:

 

[Poeticus]

Namaste,

But doesn't it come off as a little bit patronizing, in your view?

I apologize; I didn't mean to come off as patronizing.

Navajo and Hopi, being two examples.

I provided a "global" approach. From Libya to Egypt. From Egypt to Northern Scythia. This was called the "Known World" back then. And, you have provided only two from North America.

Here's a list of matrilineal and matrilocal societies. It's a good start.

I encourage you to read through a bunch of them, and see what percentage of them have a female-dominant situation involving widespread male stripping, male sex trade, or significant social dominance of males by females.

An overwhelming majority of them were matrilocal, and a few of them were patrilocal. This only furthers my cause.

Check the list there, let me know which ones meet your claims.

Haha. You have to provide cited examples (this would include quotations - something which I have provided you consistently) backing up the [refutation] points that you are raising to counter mine (providing links expecting me to conduct a goose chase don't count; in-text citations do) - you can't just dissect mine without providing citations that would vividly support your argument (we are talking about historical accuracy, not whether if God exists or not where the burden of proof would solely be on me); I can't be the one doing your research for you, Penumbra-ji (-ji isn't patronizing, it's an Indian suffix signifying respect - so please don't crusade me on that ).

M.V.

 

[Poeticus]

I guess, to a degree. But I do think the industry needs cleaning up, and better regulation. The workers need better rights and support available.

Don't worry, even in an ideal, well-regulated sex industry with full worker's rights and support etc, you'd still be able to find the movies interesting.

Plus you could watch/consume with a clear conscience! :yes:

Namaste,

Oh! I don't doubt that they will be interesting. All the power to the actors and actresses that want a better and safer work environment!!

M.V.

 

[illykitty]

I don't see the big deal here. If you're not a fan of strippers, don't go to strip club/be a stripper. When did it become a responsibility to impose your opinions on the entire world?

I'm only answering for myself but I personally have no interest in stripping (unless it involves me and my husband) or watching strippers. But I don't want it banned, I don't like it but that's my personal taste. And I don't think banning is a solution and that goes for porn too. It should be made to be safe and assure that they are not exploited.

I don't know if you'd call me feminist, I don't really identify as such but I want equality. I feel society is still very patriarchal or at least still has the results of such.

 

[Horrorble]

Fair enough. It is indeed "for free" so it cannot be compared to the sex industry. However I'm a little confused about your earlier post: are you arguing against the "female power" of mate selection, or are you complaining about the disproportionate ratios of Female and Male sex workers - or both?

I'm responding to the idea that contempt for sex workers, plus the suppression of "female sexuality" is to control the woman's ability to choose a mate.
Although I agree that supressing female sexuality can be used to restrict a woman's freedom to choose her own mate, I don't agree with it in relation to the sex industry. In relation to contempt for strippers it doesn't make sense, considering that the strippers job it to turn people on and lie about how great the customer is to get as much tips as possible, and compete with other women for money, how is that exercising the power of choosing a mate?
If that's the case shouldn't men make up the majority of the sex industry, remaining in sexual servitude for the entertainment of women, since it's the woman's "natural weapon" to pick the mate, shouldn't it be the men who have to prove they are attractive enough and sexy enough to be chosen?

 

[Aquitaine]

I'm responding to the idea that contempt for sex workers, plus the suppression of "female sexuality" is to control the woman's ability to choose a mate.
Although I agree that supressing female sexuality can be used to restrict a woman's freedom to choose her own mate, I don't agree with it in relation to the sex industry. In relation to contempt for strippers it doesn't make sense, considering that the strippers job it to turn people on and lie about how great the customer is to get as much tips as possible, and compete with other women for money, how is that exercising the power of choosing a mate?
If that's the case shouldn't men make up the majority of the sex industry, remaining in sexual servitude for the entertainment of women, since it's the woman's "natural weapon" to pick the mate, shouldn't it be the men who have to prove they are attractive enough and sexy enough to be chosen?

Hmm, I'm not sure. Considering sex work is... well... work, I don't really see it in the same sense of "finding a mate" if you get me. Instead it's basically paid work, offering sexual services in exchange for money.

So ultimately, it then becomes a matter of whoever is willing to spend the most money gets the most "service". In many ways, this does indeed flip the scenario around since Men both tend to have more money, and are way more likely to decide to blow a load on strippers.

It's business, basically. I'm sure if a trend of wealthy woman began going to strip clubs demanding male strippers, the industry would adapt and cater to demand.

So all-in-all, it may very well be that the reason more women are performing for male customers in the sex industry is because there are simply more male customers than female. Supply and demand?

 

[DallasApple]

I'm responding to the idea that contempt for sex workers, plus the suppression of "female sexuality" is to control the woman's ability to choose a mate.
Although I agree that supressing female sexuality can be used to restrict a woman's freedom to choose her own mate, I don't agree with it in relation to the sex industry. In relation to contempt for strippers it doesn't make sense, considering that the strippers job it to turn people on and lie about how great the customer is to get as much tips as possible, and compete with other women for money, how is that exercising the power of choosing a mate?
If that's the case shouldn't men make up the majority of the sex industry, remaining in sexual servitude for the entertainment of women, since it's the woman's "natural weapon" to pick the mate, shouldn't it be the men who have to prove they are attractive enough and sexy enough to be chosen?

I think (I think) what you are saying is if its the women who have the "power to choose a mate" how is that represented in the strip clubs /sex industry when that is designed for women to get paid for men to get off on .As well as she has to compete with other women to get paid for the "job".

 

[Aquitaine]

I think (I think) what you are saying is if its the women who have the "power to choose a mate" how is that represented in the strip clubs /sex industry when that is designed for women to get paid for men to get off on .As well as she has to compete with other women to get paid for the "job".

The thing is though, it's exactly that: a job. I'm not sure it can be compared to natural courting for a "real" mate, instead it is now basically a contract of providing services in exchange for money.

 

[Horrorble]

I think (I think) what you are saying is if its the women who have the "power to choose a mate" how is that represented in the strip clubs /sex industry when that is designed for women to get paid for men to get off on .As well as she has to compete with other women to get paid for the "job".

yeah that's what I said. I don't believe women have an advantage over men when it comes to choosing a mate, it's all social in my eyes, we don't have a massive fan of feathers sticking out of our a*se and neither do men. I think men and women should be able to choose their mate equally.

 

[DallasApple]

yeah that's what I said. I don't believe women have an advantage over men when it comes to choosing a mate, it's all social in my eyes, we don't have a massive fan of feathers sticking out of our a*se and neither do men. I think men and women should be able to choose their mate equally.

LOL!!! You mean like a "peacock"? (no pun intended)..Well I have heard that women are "sitting on a gold mine" and women are the 'gatekeepers of SEX".In that sense she has the advantage.Oh and maybe why men(as in general and in theory) would have the desire to control women.Including robbing them of choice.(who to pair with and in general whether or not to get the choice to NOT have sex or have sex and who with or to get married to hence arranged marriages and sex slaves (forced prostituion).Women are a "commodity in that sense.Take our power away is in the interest of males.(all around)

But of course men and women should be able to choose their mate equally".

 

[DallasApple]

The thing is though, it's exactly that: a job. I'm not sure it can be compared to natural courting for a "real" mate, instead it is now basically a contract of providing services in exchange for money.

Agreed ..but why? Why so many woman have that "job"?

And I don't buy the ole "if it was matriarchy it would be in reverse"...BS!

If women NOW (at least in developed countries) were "demanding" more male strip clubs and availability of male prostitutes the industry would grow to meet the demand.Women are not demanding it.(at least not in any #'s )Why?

 

[Aquitaine]

Agreed ..but why? Why so many woman have that "job"?

And I don't buy the ole "if it was matriarchy it would be in reverse"...BS!

If women NOW (at least in developed countries) were "demanding" more male strip clubs and availability of male prostitutes the industry would grow to meet the demand.Women are not demanding it.(at least not in any #'s )Why?

Well, to be fair I'm not necessarily arguing that it would exist in a "Matriarchy", I'm just saying that it might just be because of supply and demand. Ergo, if a trend of women with money to burn start frequenting strip clubs looking for male performers, the industry would most-likely change to accommodate, which it has (to a degree).

I assume more women are employed because heterosexual males are the primary (most-numerous) customers. There exist venues for Gay customers, and straight women too - they're just not as common because said customers aren't as numerous either. Supply and demand.

 

[DallasApple]

I'm just saying that it might just be because of supply and demand.

I'm thinking the other way around.Demand creates supply.There is a lack of demand.Why?

 

[Horrorble]

LOL!!! You mean like a "peacock"? (no pun intended)..Well I have heard that women are "sitting on a gold mine" and women are the 'gatekeepers of SEX".In that sense she has the advantage.Oh and maybe why men(as in general and in theory) would have the desire to control women.Including robbing them of choice.(who to pair with and in general whether or not to get the choice to NOT have sex or have sex and who with or to get married to hence arranged marriages and sex slaves (forced prostituion).Women are a "commodity in that sense.Take our power away is in the interest of males.(all around)

But of course men and women should be able to choose their mate equally".

We are "sitting on a gold mine" as in we can always sell our p**sy? And we are the "gatekeepers of sex" because we want the right to say "no honey I don't feel like it right now I'm constipated" :areyoucra because men never say they are not in the mood right?
Yeah It's funny how the sex industry works in a way where it's the woman that has to make a spectacle of herself.

 

[DallasApple]

We are "sitting on a gold mine" as in we can always sell our p**sy? And we are the "gatekeepers of sex" because we want the right to say "no honey I don't feel like it right now I'm constipated" :areyoucra because men never say they are not in the mood right?
Yeah It's funny how the sex industry works in a way where it's the woman that has to make a spectacle of herself.

((((HUGS)))))


Men don't usually let "constipation" interfere" with having sex.(just to use your one example)