Should Feminists be encouraging women to be strippers?

[yoda89]

Why not the world could always use more strippers. The supply would go up and prices would go down.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I don't see the big deal here. If you're not a fan of strippers, don't go to strip club/be a stripper. When did it become a responsibility to impose your opinions on the entire world?

 

[Penumbra]

Namaste, Penumbra-ji:

Who should I cite? Women-haters?

Detailed sources.

That paragraph was a premise for the case studies. The paragraph showed that when Goddess worship was prevalent, women were in power. Nothing more. Nothing less.

I don't think Diodorus hid in the bushes with a notepad jotting down notes now, did he? Who do you want me to cite? Aborigines from Australia?

If that is the case, we can cross off colonial historians of the 1800s and the early 1900s with their obvious bias (their contempt for the people that they colonized). The thing is, sources of recent years all cited her, even wikipedia cited Stone, therefore I used her.

Doesn't change the fact that you're using one source, that makes brief one or two sentence references to other historians, without actually describing cultures.

What? The quotes showed that women were in control in those societies and barred men from taking certain offices and acquiring military power... if that isn't bossing menfolk around, I don't think I am human...maybe I am an alien from Nibiru?

No, the quote said this:

(Sumer - "The Women of Former Days Used to take Two Husbands…")
(Professor Saggs wrote in 1963
"The status of women was certainly much higher in the early Sumerian city state than it subsequently…" The Urukagina reform is dated at about 2300BCE. It reads, "The women of former days used to take two husbands but the women o today would be stoned with stones if they did this." Polyandry has been reported in the Dravidian Goddess-worshipping areas of India even in this century…. In the early periods of Elam the deities appear to have been served by female and male clergy, the men appearing naked before the high priestess…"
My favorite: Stone quotes Sinclair Hood from The Minoans, Crete in the Bronze Age: "This is the fearless and natural emphasis on sexual life that ran through all religious expression and was made obvious in the provocative dress of both sexes and their easy mingling…"
(The Dominant Sex by M. and M. Vaerting; quoted in When God Was A Woman by Merlin Stone: The Paradise Papers; Virago Limited: Quarted Books. 1976.)

Other than the mistake of assuming that polyandry necessarily implies female power, where in there is there anything about men obeying women?

Polyandry was just a small candy-like gift in the quotes. I shouldn't have even used it; I wasn't even using it as an example to show females ruling over men in absolute terms. But, even the mere presence of polyandry shows a pro-female attitude, nonetheless. Which definitely goes against: "Yeah bro! I have tens of wives - even 50, brah!"

No, it doesn't. You didn't address the counter-point that I referenced; that polyandry is very rare and limited when it does occur, and when it does, the common form of it is paternal polyandry, which occurs primarily because only the eldest son inherits all of the wealth of the parents. Therefore, sometimes the family chooses to marry two sons to one woman, so that the property gets passed to both of their sons, since they're in the same family.

You missed my point. My point was that the females in that society made a rule by themselves that in order to marry they have to kill a man.

I didn't miss your point. It's not relevant to what we're talking about, because you were trying to counter my point that even in matriarchal societies, it's not like the armies consist all of women. Most warriors worldwide and historically have been males, even though there have indeed been cultures that had women warriors on par with men.

No matter how tough you cite those women to be, the fact is that they fought with men, not instead of men. My point was that it's not like every role switches in matriarchal cultures. Your follow-up points showing examples of female warriors has little to do with that statement, because I never said there were not cultures with significant female involvement in their warrior class.

 

[Penumbra]

"Herodotus called them Androktones ("killers of men"), and he stated that in the Scythian language they were called Oiorpata, which he asserted had this meaning."
(derived from: Hinge, George (2005). "Herodot zur skythischen Sprache. Arimaspen, Amazonen und die Entdeckung des Schwarzen Meeres". Glotta (in German) 81: 86–115.)

"No men were permitted to have sexual encounters or reside in Amazon country; but once a year, in order to prevent their race from dying out, they visited the Gargareans, a neighbouring tribe. The male children who were the result of these visits were either killed, sent back to their fathers or exposed in the wilderness to fend for themselves; the girls were kept and brought up by their mothers, and trained in agricultural pursuits, hunting, and the art of war. In other versions when the Amazons went to war they would not kill all the men. Some they would take as slaves, and once or twice a year they would have sex with their slaves."
[(derived from [click]: LacusCurtius ? Strabo's Geography ? Book*XI Chapter*5) and quoted from: Amazons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
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You do realize that the part you're quoting from wikipedia is under the section, "The Myth", right? That same section talks about Hercules, Troy, the Illiad, and the Amazonian queen Hippolyta's magical girdle.

Historians have little sure knowledge of anything about the Amazonians other than what is described in Greek Mythology.

"Tacitus noted in his Germania that many Germanic tribes of the time (circa 98 C.E.) "believe that there resides in women an element of holiness and prophecy, and so they do not scorn to ask their advice or lightly disregard their replies. He goes on to observe that in "the nations of the Sitones.... woman is the ruling sex.""
(Tacitus, Cornelius, Germania (A.D. 98), as accessed June 8, 2013, paragraph 8. - - - - - Tacitus, Cornelius, Germania, op. cit., paragraph 45. - - - - - quoted from: Matriarchy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

The bolded part is good- they take their women seriously.

The part about "woman is the ruling sex" is so short as to be unhelpful. I could say the women are the ruling sex of the Navajo but that wouldn't begin to describe how it actually works, and how egalitarian their society is. That's where an actual description would help, and that's what I keep pointing out about these sources- basically every one is this ancient guy saying "women ruled" without any details or almost any details.

"Few ancient civilizations enabled women to achieve important social positions. In Ancient Egypt, there are not only examples indicating women high officials were not so rare, but more surprising (for its time), there are women in the highest office, that of Pharaoh. More than a kind of feminism, this is a sign of the importance of theocracy in Egyptian society."
(quoted from: Women in Ancient Egypt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
[if these women Pharaohs weren't bossing men around, I don't think any history is to be taken correctly anymore...]

Yes, there were some female pharaohs. Most pharaohs were males. I'm not saying there have not been queens, female leaders, etc. Citing individual references of individually powerful women is not relevant. This whole debate is about the insistence that, in your view, a matriarchy is apparently just like a patriarchy but reversed, which in detailed accounts of actual matriarchies is rarely if ever the case.

How could I forget one of the most awesome women in Asian history? Tomyris of the Massagetae, who ruled over this tribe as Mother and as Queen. It is reported that they were of the Scytho-Sarmatian stock, united under Tomyris. Here we clearly have an example of a female bossing menfold around. All the power to her! Furthermore, she decapitated Cyrus when he asked her hand in marriage after he tried to conquer her land and in the process ended up being responsible for her son's death - so she went bonkers - and rightly so, in my opinion. She basically dipped his head in a bowl of his own blood - as her male warriors cheered on in full glory. It is important to note that she didn't have a King. She was the sole ruler of this massive North Iranic tribal-nation. It is most likely that a random member of her tribal-nation may have fathered her son - which purports the matriarchal spirit and notion of free-sex.
(Tomyris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
- - - - - -
Some societies had females as leaders. Some societies had males as leaders. Some societies had females giving out the rules - meaning the norms were very pro-women due to their Goddess worship and their matriarchal tendencies. And, vice versa for pro-men societies. I don't know why we are even arguing. Females that engaged in warfare like the Libyans and the pre-Sarmations (Ha-Mazan) had sex with men that they captured. I don't know why this is seen as something bad; women had every right to turn the tables against men during that time period. Matriarchal societies brought their egalitarianism, I will grant you that, but they weren't 100% goody goody, especially not the ones of North Iranian stock. Thus, if we have a matriarchal society again (which I am totally down for), I don't see how it is impossible for sex trading to occur. Excuse my French, but hell, even many hard working women today engage in secret orgies (the Dancing Bear phenomenon?). If the matriarchal society became prominent, I doubt that these "orgies" would subside. I will grant you the notion and agree with the fact that matriarchal societies are more peaceful. This is something any college student learns in his/her Intro to Conflict Resolution course during his/her freshman year if he/she goes into the line of politics or international affairs.

I already said- I know that some societies had female leaders. That has nothing to do with the things I've said.

I also never said matriarchies were goody goody, nor did I say it was impossible for sex trading to occur.

If you have time, can you provide me with a few arguments with citations that show the stance of women not engaging in sex trading if a matriarchal society all of a sudden sprung up? The argument has to go both ways, dear Goddess.

First, you'd have to point out where I said that wouldn't happen. I've asked you to prove your continued assertion that it would happen. Personally, I doubt it would happen, because if you do research on various individual matriarchies around the world, they tend to be very different from patriarchies. Not mirror images.

Second, there are matriarchies that exist or have existed and been observed. I've read up on several of them. Can you cite a few reasonably detailed examples of widespread male sex trading in any matriarchal societies?

I would like to conclude with thus (as I stated much much earlier in a post which started this debate): if the US was all of a sudden turned into a matriarchal society, strip clubs would still exist - and new ones for the benefit of women would blossom across the country, because the desire to enjoy such facilities isn't solely man-perspected. And, this isn't something to be ashamed about. I am sure many women are comfortable with their sexuality and wish to partake in the sexual freedom that is expounded upon American males without much scrutiny whereas the women are quickly scrutinized - unfortunately.
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Regards,
M.V.

I didn't say it's solely for men. I'm the one that pointed out that there already are some male strippers.

But I find your idea that "if the US was all of a sudden turned into a matriarchal society... new [strip clubs] for the benefit of women would blossom across the country" to be an unevidenced assertion, and one that runs counter to a lot of the matriarchal societies that have been observed in detail.

 

[Poeticus]

Namaste Penumbra-ji,

Females would enjoy some men at strip clubs. End of story.

And, I never said that they would mirror patriarchal societies in absolute terms.

A poster said that strip clubs are of patriarchal product. I said, the same thing would happen in a matriarchal society. Then, you replied..."how so?".

M.V.

ps - Now, prove to me that females will not have strip clubs in a matriarchal society, even though history has shown that free-sex has been highly popular in matriarchal societies...do you want females to enjoy having free-sex or not?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I don't see the big deal here. If you're not a fan of strippers, don't go to strip club/be a stripper. When did it become a responsibility to impose your opinions on the entire world?

To be fair, there are feminists who see an industry that is rife with abuse and exploitation, so it isn't so much that they don't like it, but that they want the exploitation to stop.

I disagree with some feminists who want to censor and illegalize the industry. Though I think everyone is on the same page that exploitation ought to be diminished if not eliminated.

 

[Penumbra]

Namaste Penumbra-ji,

Females would enjoy some men at strip clubs. End of story.

Some females already enjoy some men at some strip clubs.

And, I never said that they would mirror patriarchal societies in absolute terms.

A poster said that strip clubs are of patriarchal product. I said, the same thing would happen in a matriarchal society. Then, you replied..."how so?".

To which you really didn't provide a direct answer so far.

M.V.

ps - Now, prove to me that females will not have strip clubs in a matriarchal society, even though history has shown that free-sex has been highly popular in matriarchal societies...do you want females to enjoy having free-sex or not?

Sorry, you're shifting the burden of proof when you're the one that asserted a claim repeatedly. I've asked you to provide some reasonably detailed examples of where this has ever popped up in a widespread sense in matriarchal societies.

I'm also curious that you're equating power with stripping. As in, if females were in power, there would be a lot more strip clubs for them. We already have a pretty strong market economy- they can (and do) operate male stripping services for women. There just hasn't been the demand for it on nearly the same scale. Something like 9:1 from sources I've seen.

And I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat the point that there already are male strip clubs. I'm not saying there wouldn't be strip clubs; let's not shift the goal posts. You're saying that they'd start blossoming if suddenly there was matriarchy, which is an odd and unevidenced assertion.

 

[Poeticus]

Namaste,

Some females already enjoy some men at some strip clubs.

Which is awesome!

To which you really didn't provide a direct answer so far.

Why am I supposed to: when females should be allowed to enjoy men as much as men enjoy females?

Sorry, you're shifting the burden of proof when you're the one that asserted a claim repeatedly. I've asked you to provide some reasonably detailed examples of where this has ever popped up in a widespread sense in matriarchal societies.

Yes I did, but you didn't like them because Diodorus didn't hide behind a bush taking notes...what do you expect of people from the BCE times? Flying cars and golf courses?

I'm also curious that you're equating power with stripping. As in, if females were in power, there would be a lot more strip clubs for them. We already have a pretty strong market economy- they can (and do) operate male stripping services for women. There just hasn't been the demand for it on nearly the same scale. Something like 9:1 from sources I've seen.

I never equated power with stripping. Read the name of the thread, dear. This whole thing was about stripping.

And I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat the point that there already are male strip clubs. I'm not saying there wouldn't be strip clubs; let's not shift the goal posts. You're saying that they'd start blossoming if suddenly there was matriarchy, which is an odd and unevidenced assertion.

Prove to me there wouldn't be. Because, I never made the assertion there would be a blossom. Instead of blossom, I meant that new ones would rise catering to females....come on - English isn't my first language - I mess up sometimes. What do you want from a poor Indian fella, eh? :sad4::sad4::sad4:

M.V.

ps - The burden of proof is not always on the one making the claim. In some issues it may shift to the one raising a factual issue in a debate.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

To be fair, there are feminists who see an industry that is rife with abuse and exploitation, so it isn't so much that they don't like it, but that they want the exploitation to stop.

I disagree with some feminists who want to censor and illegalize the industry. Though I think everyone is on the same page that exploitation ought to be diminished if not eliminated.

It would help to be a little more vocal than the crowd who just plain condemn the industry as a whole.

 

[Aquitaine]

To be fair, there are feminists who see an industry that is rife with abuse and exploitation, so it isn't so much that they don't like it, but that they want the exploitation to stop.

I disagree with some feminists who want to censor and illegalize the industry. Though I think everyone is on the same page that exploitation ought to be diminished if not eliminated.

Yup - it's just like with any other industry really; if it's abusive then the abuse needs to stop, not necessarily the "act" of being employed in said industry, if you know what I mean.

I honestly disagree with the idea of trying to criminalize sex work, because that's all civilization has ever done - just sweep it under the rug and ignore it, whilst it grows underground and the abuse just falls on deaf ears.

Frankly, I'd rather it be legalized and heavily regulated than criminalized and ignored.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

It would help to be a little more vocal than the crowd who just plain condemn the industry as a whole.

I'm doing my best.

 

[Poeticus]

Frankly, I'd rather it be legalized and heavily regulated than criminalized and ignored.

Namaste,

Can you imagine "regulation" of anal scenes or POV shots?

Sorry, Henry, only five scenes will be allowed and the anal scenes must last only this amount, anything more and there will be a $500 fine for ya!


M.V.

 

[Aquitaine]

Namaste,

Can you imagine "regulation" of anal scenes or POV shots?

Sorry, Henry, only five scenes will be allowed and the anal scenes must last only this amount, anything more and there will be a $500 fine for ya!


M.V.

Can you imagine participating in an Anal scene with no regulation or guidelines/rules to protect and support you? By "participate" I mean so on the receiving end. :cover:

 

[Poeticus]

Can you imagine participating in an Anal scene with no regulation or guidelines/rules to protect and support you? By "participate" I mean so on the receiving end. :cover:

Namaste,

They already have guidelines, don't they? Also, my question wasn't directed at you, it was a hypothetical in the sense that: pretend me and you were standing in front of a porn producer and a litigator or a District Attorney, who was pretty much giving the producer strict regulations, etc. etc. etc. Wouldn't it seem awkward?

M.V.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I'm pretty sure "regulation" in the sex industry would really only mean making sure people aren't forced to do things they don't want to do.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I'm doing my best.

I hear naked protests work wonders:yes:

 

[Poeticus]

I'm pretty sure "regulation" in the sex industry would really only mean making sure people aren't forced to do things they don't want to do.

Namaste,

Don't they already have that? Because, if females were forced into sex acting (which I feel is what the anti-porn speakers are concluding), and the government found out, they would close the whole forsaken industry, right?

M.V.

 

[Penumbra]

Namaste,

Which is awesome!

Why am I supposed to: when females should be allowed to enjoy men as much as men enjoy females?

That doesn't mean they would do it, in the same way, in the same numbers.

Yes I did, but you didn't like them because Diodorus didn't hide behind a bush taking notes...what do you expect of people from the BCE times? Flying cars and golf courses?

I don't expect more from people of BCE times.

I expect modern people to not make more of a resource than actually exists, such as using one or two sentences from an ancient historian known for relying on other historians as a basis for an argument that men obey women in a given society.

I never equated power with stripping. Read the name of the thread, dear. This whole thing was about stripping.

As an aside, I'm not particularly keen on repeatedly being called "dear", "Lady", or "Goddess" in a discussion.

I know the whole thread is about stripping. Your assertions are that if this was a matriarchy, it would be the reverse with a lot more male strip clubs.

Prove to me there wouldn't be. Because, I never made the assertion there would be a blossom. Instead of blossom, I meant that new ones would rise catering to females....come on - English isn't my first language - I mess up sometimes. What do you want from a poor Indian fella, eh? :sad4::sad4::sad4:

M.V.

I've provided examples of matriarchal societies that were rather egalitarian (ones where there is actually a lot of info), and pointed out the weakness of your sources that are based on single-sentence ancient statements about a whole culture.

This the direct quote from the first post of yours that I replied to:

"The same thing would happen in a matriarchal society, brah. It just would be men on the platforms, not women..."

This was a quote from you in another post:

"But, there will still be a sex trade in a matriarchal world (with the "strippers" being mostly men in this situation)."

This is where you said they would blossom:

"I would like to conclude with thus (as I stated much much earlier in a post which started this debate): if the US was all of a sudden turned into a matriarchal society, strip clubs would still exist - and new ones for the benefit of women would blossom across the country, because the desire to enjoy such facilities isn't solely man-perspected."
​

Your English seems fine; it's the content that I see as unevidenced. I've asked you to cite any detailed examples where this happens- where matriarchal societies have had widespread male stripping, sex trade, centered around women, and things like that.

 

[Aquitaine]

Namaste,

They already have guidelines, don't they? Also, my question wasn't directed at you, it was a hypothetical in the sense that: pretend me and you were standing in front of a porn producer and a litigator or a District Attorney, who was pretty much giving the producer strict regulations, etc. etc. etc. Wouldn't it seem awkward?

M.V.

In fairness I don't exactly know the most effective way of regulating sex work, including Pornography - although I have mentioned certain prerequisites earlier on in this thread.

Ultimately it's about creating an environment that is safe and (preferably) respectful to all workers. Just like with any other industry, although in fairness I imagine the sex industry would require special attention.

Quite frankly, I'd rather there be a scene which is being regulated by some killjoy who is ensuring the worker's rights, rather than an unregulated "underground" scene where the worker/s are basically being directly abused.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I hear naked protests work wonders:yes:

Better than pole dancing protests?