"Wifely Duties?"

[Magic Man]

Looking at this objectively does not change my belief in this matter. Does this make me willfully ignorant or just caring?

I suggest that you haven't looked at it objectively, and it makes you ignorant. Implying that the opposite makes someone uncaring is just stupid.

 

[Draka]

I suggest that you haven't looked at it objectively, and it makes you ignorant. Implying that the opposite makes someone uncaring is just stupid.

Considering that he's implying that if a man would rather his wife "put out" even if she doesn't want to and even "pretend" to enjoy it for his benefit then the man must not give two hoots about what his wife really wants or enjoys nor does he care...I think it is spot on and insightful...hardly stupid. Only one guilty of such atrocity against a woman would call it "stupid".

Here's the thing mball. I think you have said something before about your wife suffering from depression. Well, if that is the case, and you are expecting her to have sex with you even when she doesn't want to, you are not only not doing anything to help her mental state...but are probably making it worse. You are taking a woman who is depressed, has no sex drive, and most likely has low self esteem and relegating her to a position of sex doll for your enjoyment. That's most likely endangering any idea of self-worth she does have. You might as well be pouring the bottle of pills in her mouth and telling her "goodnight". You know what? This even goes for a woman who doesn't suffer from depression. Treat a woman like a sex doll whose purpose is your pleasure, her's be damned, and you might as well be cutting down her self esteem with a machete.

 

[Magic Man]

Considering that he's implying that if a man would rather his wife "put out" even if she doesn't want to and even "pretend" to enjoy it for his benefit then the man must not give two hoots about what his wife really wants or enjoys nor does he care...I think it is spot on and insightful...hardly stupid. Only one guilty of such atrocity against a woman would call it "stupid".

Here's the thing mball. I think you have said something before about your wife suffering from depression. Well, if that is the case, and you are expecting her to have sex with you even when she doesn't want to, you are not only not doing anything to help her mental state...but are probably making it worse. You are taking a woman who is depressed, has no sex drive, and most likely has low self esteem and relegating her to a position of sex doll for your enjoyment. That's most likely endangering any idea of self-worth she does have. You might as well be pouring the bottle of pills in her mouth and telling her "goodnight". You know what? This even goes for a woman who doesn't suffer from depression. Treat a woman like a sex doll whose purpose is your pleasure, her's be damned, and you might as well be cutting down her self esteem with a machete.

Yes, thank you for yet another mischaracterization. I guess I was wrong to think that you could look at any topic without emotions clouding your judgement. You're wrong, and you want to stay that way. That's fine. If this is never a problem for you, great. I'm happy for you. However, some of us don't have that luxury. I find it funny that people who are pro-choice because of how personal it is can then tell someone they're sick and twisted for having an opinion on an extremely personal matter like this of which they know very little. Unless you want to try to actually put yourself in the shoes of a situation like this and not just think about it from the point of view that it's never been a problem for you, I suggest you refrain from calling others rapists and such. I usually enjoy your point-of-view, but it's clear here that you just want to take offense and not try to fully comprehend the situation. So, go ahead, but please stop with the ridiculous comparisons and accusations.

I said I was done here and I should be, but it's hard when people continue to mischaracterize you and accuse you of things like being a rapist. If you genuinely want to understand, then I'm more than willing to help, but if you want to just be offended because someone's not being politically correct, then you need to stop.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

True, yet it doesn`t change the fact that it can potentially damage a relationship.

Again, emotions aren`t rational.

Not sure what your point would be on this.

 

[linwood]

Not sure what your point would be on this.

I suppose my point is that emotional relationships are never very cut and dry.

My wife becomes a bit insecure if I don`t respond to her sexual advances the way I normally do.

While she is much better about it than she used to be there are many reasons for this.

Trust issues with men in general...
Every male from her father to her brothers to even now her sons have given her reason to be very suspicious of any mans agenda.
Yes, I am also included in that group of males.

Societies expectations of her..
She was raised as many women are, to believe in a fairy tale instead of reality.
The white knight will come and sweep her away to safety, happiness, and perfection.
Marriage should be perfect bliss for the rest of ones life.
This is rampant throughout our culture.
Fail to meet that fairy tale expectation and you`ve got personal beliefs directly contradicting reality.

She is a special prize and sex is a special act meant only for the one you love and can also be used as a weapon against the one you love.
This one is a killer of many relationships.

I could go on and on naming the unrealistic concepts fed to young girls in their formative years concerning sex and relationships but I think these will do for now.


Now I don`t want to give the impression my wife is a helpless subject to all of these influences because she`s not.
However they are there and they can be confusing when a woman is on her own in the real world and realizes what she`s been taught is not what reality is.

Ironically the birth of our daughter seems to have given my wife the ability to see through all this crap she was fed as a child.

My own awareness of these issues has also allowed me to be particularly sensitive to them and I like to think that has helped.

Many many western women are victims of this same type of upbringing.

Edit:
The very concept of this Op are the result of the cultural realities I`ve mentioned.
"Wifely Duties"...*** is that?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

***MOD ADVISORY***

Let's be careful to be civil and keep the personal comments polite rather than caustic.

Thanks

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I suppose my point is that emotional relationships are never very cut and dry.

I see. It seemed at first blush that you were placing special emphasis on "reason" in a complex relationship... I was going to say that our complex interactions are not governed by reason, but I guess that's not what you were saying.

 

[Draka]

Yes, thank you for yet another mischaracterization. I guess I was wrong to think that you could look at any topic without emotions clouding your judgement. You're wrong, and you want to stay that way. That's fine. If this is never a problem for you, great. I'm happy for you. However, some of us don't have that luxury. I find it funny that people who are pro-choice because of how personal it is can then tell someone they're sick and twisted for having an opinion on an extremely personal matter like this of which they know very little. Unless you want to try to actually put yourself in the shoes of a situation like this and not just think about it from the point of view that it's never been a problem for you, I suggest you refrain from calling others rapists and such. I usually enjoy your point-of-view, but it's clear here that you just want to take offense and not try to fully comprehend the situation. So, go ahead, but please stop with the ridiculous comparisons and accusations.

I said I was done here and I should be, but it's hard when people continue to mischaracterize you and accuse you of things like being a rapist. If you genuinely want to understand, then I'm more than willing to help, but if you want to just be offended because someone's not being politically correct, then you need to stop.

You want for me to put myself in the shoes you talk of and then maybe I would understand? You know what? I HAVE been there. My first husband treated me like that, and my second husband believed I should "take care" of him whenever he was aroused whether or not I was in the mood for sex. He would even guilt me into it by implying that if I didn't want sex with him I must not really love him enough and why did I even marry him crapola. My first husband even outright said once that I was basically a warm body to have sex with regardless of whether I wanted it or not. and you know how I was during those relationships? I had extremely low self esteem. And looking back on them I DO feel like I was raped. I felt miserable inside. I felt used while I was in the relationships but didn't say anything because it was "what was expected of me". So no, I can't "look at this objectively" as you say I need to...I can only look at it from the side of the woman and what she truly feels like inside...because I KNOW!!! I KNOW what it feel like for the woman to be treated as such. I KNOW that when all said and done it feel like a form of rape. I KNOW it is very damaging to self esteem for a woman to think her moods and feelings don't really matter and she should just "do it anyway". I KNOW.

 

[Magic Man]

You want for me to put myself in the shoes you talk of and then maybe I would understand? You know what? I HAVE been there. My first husband treated me like that, and my second husband believed I should "take care" of him whenever he was aroused whether or not I was in the mood for sex. He would even guilt me into it by implying that if I didn't want sex with him I must not really love him enough and why did I even marry him crapola. My first husband even outright said once that I was basically a warm body to have sex with regardless of whether I wanted it or not. and you know how I was during those relationships? I had extremely low self esteem. And looking back on them I DO feel like I was raped. I felt miserable inside. I felt used while I was in the relationships but didn't say anything because it was "what was expected of me". So no, I can't "look at this objectively" as you say I need to...I can only look at it from the side of the woman and what she truly feels like inside...because I KNOW!!! I KNOW what it feel like for the woman to be treated as such. I KNOW that when all said and done it feel like a form of rape. I KNOW it is very damaging to self esteem for a woman to think her moods and feelings don't really matter and she should just "do it anyway". I KNOW.

Ah, see now we get down to the real problem as I suspected. You have not been in the situation I'm talking about because that's not what it is. I don't guilt my wife into sex. I don't expect her to do it every time I feel like it. I would never even imply to my wife that she's just a warm body to have sex with.

This is the problem. You hear my opinion on this and all you think about is this husband of yours. That's my whole point. You need to look at it without that perspective. You need to realize that I'm not advocating that a woman should have sex with her husband whenever he wants to, or that he should guilt her into it, or force himself on her. I have made that very clear several times now. That's why I say you not looking at it the right way. Looking at it from that perspective, of course, you're going to have that offended opinion, and be outraged. I would be too. However, you need to realize that that's not at all the situation I'm talking about.

 

[linwood]

I see. It seemed at first blush that you were placing special emphasis on "reason" in a complex relationship... I was going to say that our complex interactions are not governed by reason, but I guess that's not what you were saying.

Nope, exactly the opposite.


Dallas stated that it was unreasonable to think you`re at fault for your partners seeming disinterest with sex.
She`s entirely right it is unreasonable but reason rarely has anything to do with most peoples emotions concerning their mates.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Nope, exactly the opposite.


Dallas stated that it was unreasonable to think you`re at fault for your partners seeming disinterest with sex.
She`s entirely right it is unreasonable but reason rarely has anything to do with most peoples emotions concerning their mates.

Right on, man.

 

[Draka]

Ah, see now we get down to the real problem as I suspected. You have not been in the situation I'm talking about because that's not what it is. I don't guilt my wife into sex. I don't expect her to do it every time I feel like it. I would never even imply to my wife that she's just a warm body to have sex with.

This is the problem. You hear my opinion on this and all you think about is this husband of yours. That's my whole point. You need to look at it without that perspective. You need to realize that I'm not advocating that a woman should have sex with her husband whenever he wants to, or that he should guilt her into it, or force himself on her. I have made that very clear several times now. That's why I say you not looking at it the right way. Looking at it from that perspective, of course, you're going to have that offended opinion, and be outraged. I would be too. However, you need to realize that that's not at all the situation I'm talking about.

But you DID say that a woman should have sex even if she doesn't want to because it's "expected" in marriage. You were the one who said that foul bit about her "pretending" to enjoy it even she isn't. I don't care if you have said the same things I was the receipient of or not. It is WRONG to "expect" a woman to have sex when she doesn't want to. To infer to her it is "expected" in marriage IS force through guilt...whether you see that or not.

 

[Magic Man]

But you DID say that a woman should have sex even if she doesn't want to because it's "expected" in marriage. You were the one who said that foul bit about her "pretending" to enjoy it even she isn't. I don't care if you have said the same things I was the receipient of or not. It is WRONG to "expect" a woman to have sex when she doesn't want to. To infer to her it is "expected" in marriage IS force through guilt...whether you see that or not.

Yes, I said those things, and you still fail to understand the difference in the situations, which is why I originally didn't even want to continue this. You are heavily influenced by the situation you were in, and it's going to be impossible to get you to understand. Yes, sometimes a woman should have sex even if she doesn't want to and she should pretend to enjoy it, but only if she almost never feels like having sex.

 

[Draka]

Yes, I said those things, and you still fail to understand the difference in the situations, which is why I originally didn't even want to continue this. You are heavily influenced by the situation you were in, and it's going to be impossible to get you to understand. Yes, sometimes a woman should have sex even if she doesn't want to and she should pretend to enjoy it, but only if she almost never feels like having sex.

If she almost never feels like having sex then something is wrong with her or the relationship. And she should NOT have sex if she doesn't want to. Sex is not a requirement of love. A woman is NOT there for the pleasure of the man. Any man who truly loves his wife would never expect her to do something as intimate and profound as making love if she doesn't want to. He would respect her and her feelings enough to not pressure her and to help her find out why she is the way she is. And if it just boils down to that just being who she is then either he loves her enough to accept that or he doesn't and he should leave her so she can find someone who does respect her and love her the way she deserves.

 

[Magic Man]

If she almost never feels like having sex then something is wrong with her or the relationship. And she should NOT have sex if she doesn't want to. Sex is not a requirement of love. A woman is NOT there for the pleasure of the man. Any man who truly loves his wife would never expect her to do something as intimate and profound as making love if she doesn't want to. He would respect her and her feelings enough to not pressure her and to help her find out why she is the way she is. And if it just boils down to that just being who she is then either he loves her enough to accept that or he doesn't and he should leave her so she can find someone who does respect her and love her the way she deserves.

Well, that's your opinion, and it works when you don't have to deal with that situation. However, my point is that you're judging from a pretty lofty position. Again, unless you want to actually understand the other position, this will go nowhere, and you seem very resistant to that idea.

 

[painted wolf]

I went through a period where I never wanted sex. It was physically painful for me. I'm glad my mate had enough respect to not expect me to just do it anyway.

wa:do

 

[Magic Man]

I went through a period where I never wanted sex. It was physically painful for me. I'm glad my mate had enough respect to not expect me to just do it anyway.

wa:do

I'm glad he did, too. If it was that big a problem, he shouldn't have. That's why it would be classified as "extenuating circumstances", as I've already done a few times in this thread, so you can stop this now.

 

[painted wolf]

So if I was having a bout of depression then what?

wa:do

 

[Magic Man]

So if I was having a bout of depression then what?

wa:do

It depends. Do you mean feeling particularly depressed or having the clinical depression?

 

[painted wolf]

Either.
Does clinical depression get me more than regular "my dog died/I got fired" depression?

wa:do