Y we got separated from Tao if we were one sometime !

[manbangs]

Hi ppl...
I want to query here abt a question whose answer i didn't get anywhere yet.
If we are going back to the Tao as our practice then why did we get separated from the tao ?
what happened that made us un-enlightened for which we have to get enlightened.

& once we r enlightened or one with Tao then it is said that one doesn't fall in sufferings ever !
on other hand they say that all were beginninglessly enlightened !
How can all it be possible ?

So, i don't understand these contradicting philosophies !
Can anyone here explain it ??

 

[Sunburned]

Hi ppl...
I want to query here abt a question whose answer i didn't get anywhere yet.
If we are going back to the Tao as our practice then why did we get separated from the tao ?

We aren't separated, just unaware and rejecting reality.

what happened that made us un-enlightened for which we have to get enlightened.

Bad thinking and worse culture happened.

& once we r enlightened or one with Tao then it is said that one doesn't fall in sufferings ever !

I don't understand what you mean by enlightenment but being more in tune with Tao makes it easier to take things as they are.

So, i don't understand these contradicting philosophies !
Can anyone here explain it ??

Explaining probably doesn't help much. Read a few translations of the Laozi also known as Daodejing or Tao Te Ching if you are interested.

 

[Onkara]

Hi ppl...
I want to query here abt a question whose answer i didn't get anywhere yet.
If we are going back to the Tao as our practice then why did we get separated from the tao ?
what happened that made us un-enlightened for which we have to get enlightened.

& once we r enlightened or one with Tao then it is said that one doesn't fall in sufferings ever !
on other hand they say that all were beginninglessly enlightened !
How can all it be possible ?

So, i don't understand these contradicting philosophies !
Can anyone here explain it ??

Begin by understanding the mind and desire. The way our mind works and desire makes us feel "separate". Because desire implies a duality between subject (you) desire a separate object (gold, for example). It is the mind and desire which caused us to stop observing the Tao:

Always without desire we must be found,
If its deep mystery we would sound;
But if desire always within us be,
Its outer fringe is all that we shall see. Tao de Ching

It is for this reason that a separation came about:

When the Great Tao (Way or Method) ceased to be observed,
benevolence and righteousness came into vogue. (Then) appeared wisdom
and shrewdness, and there ensued great hypocrisy.

When harmony no longer prevailed throughout the six kinships,
filial sons found their manifestation; when the states and clans fell
into disorder, loyal ministers appeared.

Strictly speaking there is no such being as the "un-enlightened". Because enlightenment is our true nature and eternal, it underlies our true nature and this is why you can say "that all were beginninglessly enlightened".

All-pervading is the Great Tao! It may be found on the left
hand and on the right.

Think of it as an analogy similar to a blanket covering what is underneath it. The blanket is our mind and desires, although they too are natural, they are what conceal our true nature: enlightenment.

Personally I would not say enlightenment "gives" anything more to us, it won't give power. Rather it removes the desire and negativity which comes with it, such as depression, anxiety, frustration, anger, fear and loss.

Desire itself isn't wrong, it is natural as is everything which comes from Tao, but our minds need to come back to observing and knowing the tao.

The movement of the Tao
By contraries proceeds;
And weakness marks the course
Of Tao's mighty deeds.

All things under heaven sprang from It as existing (and named);
that existence sprang from It as non-existent (and not named).

There is more to it, my answer is a great simplification, but as Sunburned wisely say it is beneficial to study the Tao Te Ching.

 

[Herr Heinrich]

Ecopsychology would say some sort of trauma that is causing an ongoing madness in our species.

 

[dust1n]

How can you be separate from the Tao?

 

[ellenjanuary]

To paraphrase Carl Sagan, we are the way for the tao to know itself.

What ear can hear symphony that does not avoid cacophony? In silence, the sound... es sin nombre!

To me, tao is the essence of motion; and we are never still, but we seek stillness. Still my heart? Still my breath? Still my two fingers, chasing less than zero word?

To seek the tao is to step between the raindrops, to move inside with the wind of the opening door; to be inside when the rain is more like ocean. But not just physical; mental, emotional, to mesh with the clockwork heart of the breathing universe. But mesh too well, and silence shall be your sound.

 

[ellenjanuary]

How can you be separate from the Tao?

The same way one can be without god.

 

[dust1n]

The same way one can be without god.

I'm not familiar with that neither.

 

[bobhikes]

The same way one can be without god.

I would disagree. A individual my not know of the tao or understand the tao but they are still part of the tao.

 

[doppelganger]

The Tao is because there is separation.

Corollary 1: Striving to end separation from the Tao would end the Tao.

Corollary 2: Whatever you think the "Tao" is that you're separated from, isn't the Tao.

[SIZE=-1]"The ruler of the South Sea was called Light; the ruler of the North Sea, Darkness; and the ruler of the middle kingdom, Primal Chaos. From time to time, Light and Darkness met one another in the kingdom of Primal Chaos, who made them welcome.

Light and Darkness wanted to repay his kindness and said, "All men have seven openings with which they see, hear, eat and breathe, but Primal Chaos has none. Let us try to give him some."

So every day they bored one hole, and on the seventh day, Primal Chaos died."[/SIZE]

- Chuang Tzu

And so it is that we, as men, do not exist until we do; and then it is that we play with our world of existent things, and order and disorder them, and so it shall be that non-existence shall take us back from existence and that nameless spirituality shall return to Void, like a tired child home from a very wild circus.

- Malaclypse, The Younger

 

[Jacksnyte]

Hi ppl...
I want to query here abt a question whose answer i didn't get anywhere yet.
If we are going back to the Tao as our practice then why did we get separated from the tao ?
what happened that made us un-enlightened for which we have to get enlightened.

& once we r enlightened or one with Tao then it is said that one doesn't fall in sufferings ever !
on other hand they say that all were beginninglessly enlightened !
How can all it be possible ?

So, i don't understand these contradicting philosophies !
Can anyone here explain it ??

There is no "seperation from the Tao". There is ignorance of one's being a part of the Tao, But the Tao is the undivided All! The Tao, although often spoken of like a noun, is in actuality, a verb.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

One thinks they are seperate from the Tao, and hence the illusion that everything is seperate.

 

[wmjbyatt]

"Enlightenment" or "harmonization with the Tao" or whatever you want to call it is most usefully characterized as a skill, methinks. It is something which one practices in order to be better attuned to its sensitivities, its subtleties, to be better at it.

Consider a violin virtuosa: in playing her instrument, one hand moves a bow, the other presses strings on a neck. These are motions of which most of us are easily capable. The virtuosa is performing actions which we can all do. The difference between the virtuosa and the rest of us is that she moves across her instrument in full mindfulness: she is deeply aware of the relationship between her hands and her music, with herself and her instrument as intervening media. Training as a musician can be understood as training one's mind and body to understand and activate that relationship with precision, subtlety, and intentionality.

Becoming "one with the Way" or whatever mystical language you wanna use is very similar to this. We train ourselves to a state of deep mindfulness through practice and dedication such that we can EXIST with great precision, subtlety, intentionality, and skill. At that point, we can enter a state of flow in our very beinghood.

Separation from the Tao is not necessarily something that "happened" to us. The Tao is simply the path of action of reality. Clearly, this penetrates and is everything. Harmonizing ourselves with that is simply the process of paying enough attention to dance across the atoms in time with the music. Separation, then, is something we do to maintain a bit of aesthetic flair--give the tune a little touch of ourselves, so to speak.

 

[dust1n]

"Enlightenment" or "harmonization with the Tao" or whatever you want to call it is most usefully characterized as a skill, methinks. It is something which one practices in order to be better attuned to its sensitivities, its subtleties, to be better at it.

Consider a violin virtuosa: in playing her instrument, one hand moves a bow, the other presses strings on a neck. These are motions of which most of us are easily capable. The virtuosa is performing actions which we can all do. The difference between the virtuosa and the rest of us is that she moves across her instrument in full mindfulness: she is deeply aware of the relationship between her hands and her music, with herself and her instrument as intervening media. Training as a musician can be understood as training one's mind and body to understand and activate that relationship with precision, subtlety, and intentionality.

Becoming "one with the Way" or whatever mystical language you wanna use is very similar to this. We train ourselves to a state of deep mindfulness through practice and dedication such that we can EXIST with great precision, subtlety, intentionality, and skill. At that point, we can enter a state of flow in our very beinghood.

Separation from the Tao is not necessarily something that "happened" to us. The Tao is simply the path of action of reality. Clearly, this penetrates and is everything. Harmonizing ourselves with that is simply the process of paying enough attention to dance across the atoms in time with the music. Separation, then, is something we do to maintain a bit of aesthetic flair--give the tune a little touch of ourselves, so to speak.

That's about the best way I could imagine it being put. I also like you integrated Csikszentmihalyi's Flow into Taosim.

 

[ellenjanuary]

Harmonizing ourselves with that is simply the process of paying enough attention to dance across the atoms in time with the music.

Tuesday Afternoon. I raise my Tecate to you, good sir.

 

[not yet now]

I TAKE TAOISM as starting about 10000b.c.
and that it is in many ways misuderstood...

and in its essence is in agreement with
such religions as zorastrianism and hinduism
and the old testament and new testament..

for instance in the old testament
the hebrew for soul nephesh i believe
is the soul part that is alway one with the creator
thus similar to what have posted here...

in that i think taoism is consistent with the bible
what is said about the source of losing one's self awareness
...
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God from heaven is revealed against all the iniquity and wickedness of men, who hold the truth in iniquity.
Rom 1:19 Because a knowledge of God is manifest in them; for God hath manifested it in them.
Rom 1:20 For, from the foundations of the world, the occult things of God are seen, by the intellect, in the things he created, even his eternal power and divinity; so that they might be without excuse;
Rom 1:21 because they knew God, and did not glorify him and give thanks to him as God, but became vain in their imaginings, and their unwise heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 And, while they thought within themselves that they were wise, they became fools.
Rom 1:23 And they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into a likeness to the image of a corruptible man, and into the likeness of birds and quadrupeds and reptiles on the earth.
Rom 1:24 For this cause, God gave them up to the filthy lusts of their heart, to dishonor their bodies with them.
Rom 1:25 And they changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the created things, much more than the Creator of them, to whom belong glory and blessing, for ever and ever: Amen.

NOW BIBLE PASSAGES THAT I THINK INDICATE
HOW DESPITE THIS
THAT GOD REMAINS ACTIVE IN THE SOUL
WELL ONE PASSAGE FOR NOW IS THIS..
Ecc 3:11 The whole He hath made beautiful in its season; also, that knowledge He hath put in their heart without which man findeth not out the work that God hath done from the beginning even unto the end.

THAT IN THE HEART THEIR REMAINS
DIVINE OR TAOIST CONSCIOUSNESS
AND ONLY REACTIVATING THAT
IS THAT WHICH WILL BRING BACK TAOIST FULL CONSCIOUSNESS TO THE SOUL..

another mistaken notion that i think many think taoism teaches
is that the tao has no name
but what the tao te ching really says i think
is this
that it cannot be given a name
BUT U C THAT DOES NOT SAY THAT IT DOES NOT HAVE A NAME
AND BUT IT ALWAYS HAD A NAME AND CANNOT BE GIVEN ANOTHER NAME
THAT IT HAS ALWAYS HAD

and in fact the only way of returning to taoist consciousness
is to name that name
which is to say to live in terms of what that name is
and YHWH
is the essence of that name
of being consistent by way of living according to the eternal principles
of one's creator and maker
then such souls
become equal co-creators under the one creator .god the father
and manifest a way that considers the needs of others before one's own
which was expressed in its highest form in the life of jesus...
which i think was the 30th incarnation of him
which included incarnations as adam
joshua
and the father of zoroaster...

 

[ellenjanuary]

I TAKE TAOISM as starting about 10000b.c.
and that it is in many ways misuderstood...

and in its essence is in agreement with
such religions as zorastrianism and hinduism
and the old testament and new testament..

for instance in the old testament
the hebrew for soul nephesh i believe
is the soul part that is alway one with the creator
thus similar to what have posted here...

in that i think taoism is consistent with the bible
what is said about the source of losing one's self awareness
...
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God from heaven is revealed against all the iniquity and wickedness of men, who hold the truth in iniquity.
Rom 1:19 Because a knowledge of God is manifest in them; for God hath manifested it in them.
Rom 1:20 For, from the foundations of the world, the occult things of God are seen, by the intellect, in the things he created, even his eternal power and divinity; so that they might be without excuse;
Rom 1:21 because they knew God, and did not glorify him and give thanks to him as God, but became vain in their imaginings, and their unwise heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 And, while they thought within themselves that they were wise, they became fools.
Rom 1:23 And they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into a likeness to the image of a corruptible man, and into the likeness of birds and quadrupeds and reptiles on the earth.
Rom 1:24 For this cause, God gave them up to the filthy lusts of their heart, to dishonor their bodies with them.
Rom 1:25 And they changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the created things, much more than the Creator of them, to whom belong glory and blessing, for ever and ever: Amen.

NOW BIBLE PASSAGES THAT I THINK INDICATE
HOW DESPITE THIS
THAT GOD REMAINS ACTIVE IN THE SOUL
WELL ONE PASSAGE FOR NOW IS THIS..
Ecc 3:11 The whole He hath made beautiful in its season; also, that knowledge He hath put in their heart without which man findeth not out the work that God hath done from the beginning even unto the end.

THAT IN THE HEART THEIR REMAINS
DIVINE OR TAOIST CONSCIOUSNESS
AND ONLY REACTIVATING THAT
IS THAT WHICH WILL BRING BACK TAOIST FULL CONSCIOUSNESS TO THE SOUL..

another mistaken notion that i think many think taoism teaches
is that the tao has no name
but what the tao te ching really says i think
is this
that it cannot be given a name
BUT U C THAT DOES NOT SAY THAT IT DOES NOT HAVE A NAME
AND BUT IT ALWAYS HAD A NAME AND CANNOT BE GIVEN ANOTHER NAME
THAT IT HAS ALWAYS HAD

and in fact the only way of returning to taoist consciousness
is to name that name
which is to say to live in terms of what that name is
and YHWH
is the essence of that name
of being consistent by way of living according to the eternal principles
of one's creator and maker
then such souls
become equal co-creators under the one creator .god the father
and manifest a way that considers the needs of others before one's own
which was expressed in its highest form in the life of jesus...
which i think was the 30th incarnation of him
which included incarnations as adam
joshua
and the father of zoroaster...

I AM; but tao works against expression of directed will. tao te ching, collected three hundred years BC, I'm thinking.

 

[not yet now]

RATHER
not that the tao works against properly directed will
but rather
this will of a corrupted heart of stone
that came to be as in the bible

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God from heaven is revealed against all the iniquity and wickedness of men, who hold the truth in iniquity.
Rom 1:19 Because a knowledge of God is manifest in them; for God hath manifested it in them.
Rom 1:20 For, from the foundations of the world, the occult things of God are seen, by the intellect, in the things he created, even his eternal power and divinity; so that they might be without excuse;
Rom 1:21 because they knew God, and did not glorify him and give thanks to him as God, but became vain in their imaginings, and their unwise heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 And, while they thought within themselves that they were wise, they became fools.
Rom 1:23 And they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into a likeness to the image of a corruptible man, and into the likeness of birds and quadrupeds and reptiles on the earth.
Rom 1:24 For this cause, God gave them up to the filthy lusts of their heart, to dishonor their bodies with them.
Rom 1:25 And they changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the created things, much more than the Creator of them, to whom belong glory and blessing, for ever and ever: Amen.

THUS IT WAS
god rendering humankind as vain
because of what the individual soul had rebelled in to such a degree...

tho most christians think the bible says that sin started with adam
that might not be what the greek says...
as rather it was death that came to humankind thru adam's sin
Rom 5:12 As by means of one man, sin entered into the world, and, by means of sin, death; and so death passed upon all the sons of men, inasmuch as they all have sinned:
WHICH DOES NOT SAY THAT THEY SINNED WITH ADAM
BUT COULD MEAN BECAUSE OF THEIR OWN SINS
DEATH ENTERED INTO THE WORLD THAN THEN THEM
BECAUSE OF ADAM'S SIN

also later in romans where it says...

(YLT) for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.

where constitute best gives the possilbe sense of the greek word..
2. To form or compose; to give formal existence to; to make a thing what it is.
WHERE BY FORMAL EXISTENCE .. might be as the greek can mean
that sin already existed but it was formalized to become
where it now abounded and the reason to have sin abound
to make sinners so reconstituted
was that grace was developing more aboundingly
where the divine plan was to have sin more abound
so as that at some point sinners might be self convicted of their guilt fully
and truly
and then be freed by way of repentance....