If someone wanted me to deny my faith, they could never do it. I am sorry, but no one no matter what could ever do it.
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So what you are saying is it's ok to be a liar and kidnapper if it's to "protect" someone? Does this fit into your christian beliefs?johnnys4life said:My husband thinks it's okay to lie to protect someone. I have to agree. I have a friend who lost custody of her daughter to the abusive father. In her place, I would take the child and run, even if that meant lying a lot for a long time, because sometimes it's not all black and white.
The bible says that God knows what is in our hearts. If I lie and deny him to protect my child, I believe He will forgive me. He forgave Peter.turk179 said:I would not die for my religion. My faith in my belief has nothing to do with weather I will be blessed or punished after this life is over.
To quote one of those great church leaders...(can't remember which one) the sin is in the intention.Natas said:So what you are saying is it's ok to be a liar and kidnapper if it's to "protect" someone? Does this fit into your christian beliefs?
That would be Peter Abelard. He also said, "By doubting, we come to inquire and by inquiry we arrive at truth"johnnys4life said:To quote one of those great church leaders...(can't remember which one) the sin is in the intention.
I think you are responding to my other post here, but I'll just say that it seems entirely feasible then that God may have approved of Jim Jones methods.johnnys4life said:No committing suicide for your faith is entirely different. There has only ever been one case in the Bible where God approved of mass suicide, and that was because the army was being defeated and decided they couldn't let thier enemies kill them. I don't generally think the Lord would approve of suicide, since that would be throwing away his precious creation. When I say I don't put a high value on my own life, I think that is because I am just crazy.
There is evidence for situational ethics in the Bible and therefore precedent for Christians though it is a hotly debated issue.So what you are saying is it's ok to be a liar and kidnapper if it's to "protect" someone? Does this fit into your christian beliefs?
I suppose that you would have to define "faith". I would die for my family, I would die trying to save another being (even an animal) but I don't know if I would die for a "God" I have yet to meet.orichalcum said:Would you die for your faith?
Fluffy said:There is evidence for situational ethics in the Bible and therefore precedent for Christians though it is a hotly debated issue.
For example: http://members.shaw.ca/tfrisen/morality/Bbl/ethics.html, Luke 13:10-17,
And I said I think the sin is in the intent. How could God have put the commandments any clearer? Should he have said it's okay to lie sometimes? Then people would just abuse it! But the first and second greatest commandments are 1. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind, and 2. Love your neighbor as yourself.Natas said:"So what you are saying is it's ok to be a liar and kidnapper if it's to "protect" someone? Does this fit into your christian beliefs?
So are you saying it's ok to be a liar and kidnapper sometimes if you feel it's alright?johnnys4life said:And I said I think the sin is in the intent. How could God have put the commandments any clearer? Should he have said it's okay to lie sometimes? Then people would just abuse it!
Where do you read this in the ten commandments?johnnys4life said:But the first and second greatest commandments are 1. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind, and 2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
Exactly, that's why we have a criminal justice system. It's not perfect, but it does a pretty good job. Are you suggesting we become vigilantes? Money doesn't make much difference if there is good, solid evidence in most cases.johnnys4life said:What would you do if someone was abusing a child? Hope the law would take care of it? What if they had more money than you?
Sorry, that wasn't clear at all. Are you trying to say that being a liar part of the time is ok, or "Lying a lot for a long time is"?johnnys4life said:No I don't think lying to protect someone is okay in all cases, I think that's pretty clear.
To your way of thinking what law would overide the kidnapping you advocated in your earlier post? Love?johnnys4life said:I'm saying it's not always black and white. Sometimes one law overides another. Love is the greatest law there is.
Natas said:So are you saying it's ok to be a liar and kidnapper sometimes if you feel it's alright?
If it's okay to kill someone in self defense, it's okay to kidnap to defend an innocent. So yes.
Where do you read this in the ten commandments?
Neither my faith, nor the Jewish faith are based solely on the 10 commandments. Though that is a common misconception. There were righteous people in the Bible who lied at times to save someone's life, and God did not condemn them for it.
Exactly, that's why we have a criminal justice system. It's not perfect, but it does a pretty good job. Are you suggesting we become vigilantes? Money doesn't make much difference if there is good, solid evidence in most cases.
Wrong. Having been in and out of the court system as a child, I know that it does. I don't think you quite know my background. I have been involved in a legal case with my friend concerning the custody of her daughter. Her daughter was being abused by the father and yet he obtained custody after taking them to court numerous times. I've seen how the judge treated her just because her daughter's dad is a millionaire and she isn't. I've seen that for myself. I've also seen how someone who can afford to go to court 20 times and use thier lawyer to find anything and everything they can to attack another person legally, can make life hell for someone who is just scraping by.
Sorry, that wasn't clear at all. Are you trying to say that being a liar part of the time is ok, or "Lying a lot for a long time is"?
Not in all cases. To protect an innocent, yes.
To your way of thinking what law would overide the kidnapping you advocated in your earlier post? Love?
Kidnapping is not a sin. It's the raping, torturing and murdering associated with it in many cases that's sin. This kind of kidnapping is done out of love, for protection. Yes I think that overrides the law of the lands. I think you should try to do it without lying, if possible. Most of the time God makes things like that possible. I'm not advocating lying unless there is no other way to protect an innocent. When the law fails to protect an innocent, that's when the court system is of no use to me.