Would you die for your faith?

[Mister Emu]

If someone wanted me to deny my faith, they could never do it. I am sorry, but no one no matter what could ever do it.

 

[Natas]

My husband thinks it's okay to lie to protect someone. I have to agree. I have a friend who lost custody of her daughter to the abusive father. In her place, I would take the child and run, even if that meant lying a lot for a long time, because sometimes it's not all black and white.

So what you are saying is it's ok to be a liar and kidnapper if it's to "protect" someone? Does this fit into your christian beliefs?

 

[Natas]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Jim Jones & his congregation believed in dying for their faith also. [/font][font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Jones [/font][font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]held degrees from Indiana University and Butler University. He [/font][font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]belonged to a mainline Christian denomination, having been ordained in the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ.

In November, 1978[/font][font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica], they reached a consensus to commit group suicide. 914 died: 638 adults and 276 children.

[/font]

 

[Draka]

I guess I am going to go against the grain here. First off your life is more important than to just yourself. People have friends and family that depend on them, children to raise and care for and provide for. Haven't enough people been killed for their faith? Even their supposed faith? The witch hunts were a great example of this. While a lot of the people accused were not witches there were some that were of a Pagan faith. These people HID what they were to avoid possible death for simply believing what they believed. They felt no shame in saying whatever they could to save their lives. Just because you say something, especially when under duress or threat, doesn't change what you really feel and think inside. It is called a survival instinct. You can say whatever you want, or someone else wants if that being the case, but it simply does not change what you believe and you would think that a Superior Being of Worship would recognize that fact. Willingly dying on a matter of personal pride or indignation, especially when you have people that need you, is to me equivolent of suicide.

I would not die for my faith...my faith would never require that of me...my faith is a faith in a Divine that wants me to live...if They want me back then They will take me one way or another. If I am meant to die I will, if I avoid death by simply telling someone what they want to hear and I survive to live another day in happiness then I obviously wasn't being called by Them yet.

Added after-thought: I believe the Divine would rather have me deny Their existence to someone waiting to kill me if it meant saving my life than willingly let some nut job kill one of Their faithful children.

 

[turk179]

I would not die for my religion. My faith in my belief has nothing to do with weather I will be blessed or punished after this life is over.

 

[Melody]

I would not die for my religion. My faith in my belief has nothing to do with weather I will be blessed or punished after this life is over.

The bible says that God knows what is in our hearts. If I lie and deny him to protect my child, I believe He will forgive me. He forgave Peter.

 

[johnnys4life]

So what you are saying is it's ok to be a liar and kidnapper if it's to "protect" someone? Does this fit into your christian beliefs?

To quote one of those great church leaders...(can't remember which one) the sin is in the intention.

No committing suicide for your faith is entirely different. There has only ever been one case in the Bible where God approved of mass suicide, and that was because the army was being defeated and decided they couldn't let thier enemies kill them. I don't generally think the Lord would approve of suicide, since that would be throwing away his precious creation. When I say I don't put a high value on my own life, I think that is because I am just crazy.

 

[Aqualung]

Well, I certainly hope I would. I mean, it's all fine and dandy to sit here and say "yes I most certainly would" when no one has a gun to my head. I like to think I would be strong enough, but what if I'm not? That would certainly be very bad for me if I found that out.

 

[Natas]

To quote one of those great church leaders...(can't remember which one) the sin is in the intention.

That would be Peter Abelard. He also said, "By doubting, we come to inquire and by inquiry we arrive at truth"

No committing suicide for your faith is entirely different. There has only ever been one case in the Bible where God approved of mass suicide, and that was because the army was being defeated and decided they couldn't let thier enemies kill them. I don't generally think the Lord would approve of suicide, since that would be throwing away his precious creation. When I say I don't put a high value on my own life, I think that is because I am just crazy.

I think you are responding to my other post here, but I'll just say that it seems entirely feasible then that God may have approved of Jim Jones methods.

I would still like to hear your response to my original post,

"So what you are saying is it's ok to be a liar and kidnapper if it's to "protect" someone? Does this fit into your christian beliefs?

I don't think you are crazy at all, just confused. Thanks for responding.

 

[Mike182]

yes

pure and simple yes

i would also die to protect someone elses faith

 

[Fluffy]

So what you are saying is it's ok to be a liar and kidnapper if it's to "protect" someone? Does this fit into your christian beliefs?

There is evidence for situational ethics in the Bible and therefore precedent for Christians though it is a hotly debated issue.

For example: http://members.shaw.ca/tfrisen/morality/Bbl/ethics.html, Luke 13:10-17,

 

[huajiro]

Would you die for your faith?

I suppose that you would have to define "faith". I would die for my family, I would die trying to save another being (even an animal) but I don't know if I would die for a "God" I have yet to meet.

 

[Natas]

There is evidence for situational ethics in the Bible and therefore precedent for Christians though it is a hotly debated issue.

For example: http://members.shaw.ca/tfrisen/morality/Bbl/ethics.html, Luke 13:10-17,

Thanks for the link Fluffy. I can imagine it is a "Hotly debated issue"!

"Situational ethics" seems to be another term for built-in disclaimer.

e.g.
[size=-1]"The information in the bible is for informational purposes only, and not to be confused with the current facts."

Dying for one's faith is a noble sentiment. One thats been used repeatedly in movies, plays, and books. I suspect many use this source as inspiration for their ideas about self-sacrifice.
[/size]

 

[jimbob]

I would die for my Faith if i had the chance, sure. I would consider that a great honor.

 

[johnnys4life]

"So what you are saying is it's ok to be a liar and kidnapper if it's to "protect" someone? Does this fit into your christian beliefs?

And I said I think the sin is in the intent. How could God have put the commandments any clearer? Should he have said it's okay to lie sometimes? Then people would just abuse it! But the first and second greatest commandments are 1. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind, and 2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

What would you do if someone was abusing a child? Hope the law would take care of it? What if they had more money than you?

No I don't think lying to protect someone is okay in all cases, I think that's pretty clear. I'm saying it's not always black and white. Sometimes one law overides another. Love is the greatest law there is.

 

[The Black Whirlwind]

yes, i would die for my faith, if it had to come to that.

 

[turk179]

It seems that there are a lot of you that would sacrifice your own lives for your religion. Do you all believe there is a fine line between sacrificing your own life for your religion or sacrificing the life of someone else?

 

[Natas]

And I said I think the sin is in the intent. How could God have put the commandments any clearer? Should he have said it's okay to lie sometimes? Then people would just abuse it!

So are you saying it's ok to be a liar and kidnapper sometimes if you feel it's alright?

But the first and second greatest commandments are 1. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind, and 2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

Where do you read this in the ten commandments?

What would you do if someone was abusing a child? Hope the law would take care of it? What if they had more money than you?

Exactly, that's why we have a criminal justice system. It's not perfect, but it does a pretty good job. Are you suggesting we become vigilantes? Money doesn't make much difference if there is good, solid evidence in most cases.

No I don't think lying to protect someone is okay in all cases, I think that's pretty clear.

Sorry, that wasn't clear at all. Are you trying to say that being a liar part of the time is ok, or "Lying a lot for a long time is"?

I'm saying it's not always black and white. Sometimes one law overides another. Love is the greatest law there is.

To your way of thinking what law would overide the kidnapping you advocated in your earlier post? Love?

Looks like most people in this thread say they are willing to die for their faith, let's hope it never comes to that, I enjoy discussing the issues with them.

 

[Valjean]

For me the question is kind of meaningless.

My faith has no value; it confers no spiritual merit. My belief in Vedantic metaphysics is of the same order as my belief in Relativity Theory or Quantum Mechanics. In a way, "Vedanta" is just Sanskrit for "Unified Field Theory."

What would "dying for" Vedanta mean? Would my aim be to preserve the theory? That would make no sense. Like gravity, it exists independently of my life or death, If fundamentalist Christians or Muslims take over and suppress it, so what? Eppur si muove.

 

[johnnys4life]

So are you saying it's ok to be a liar and kidnapper sometimes if you feel it's alright?

If it's okay to kill someone in self defense, it's okay to kidnap to defend an innocent. So yes.


Where do you read this in the ten commandments?

Neither my faith, nor the Jewish faith are based solely on the 10 commandments. Though that is a common misconception. There were righteous people in the Bible who lied at times to save someone's life, and God did not condemn them for it.

Exactly, that's why we have a criminal justice system. It's not perfect, but it does a pretty good job. Are you suggesting we become vigilantes? Money doesn't make much difference if there is good, solid evidence in most cases.
Wrong. Having been in and out of the court system as a child, I know that it does. I don't think you quite know my background. I have been involved in a legal case with my friend concerning the custody of her daughter. Her daughter was being abused by the father and yet he obtained custody after taking them to court numerous times. I've seen how the judge treated her just because her daughter's dad is a millionaire and she isn't. I've seen that for myself. I've also seen how someone who can afford to go to court 20 times and use thier lawyer to find anything and everything they can to attack another person legally, can make life hell for someone who is just scraping by.


Sorry, that wasn't clear at all. Are you trying to say that being a liar part of the time is ok, or "Lying a lot for a long time is"?

Not in all cases. To protect an innocent, yes.

To your way of thinking what law would overide the kidnapping you advocated in your earlier post? Love?
Kidnapping is not a sin. It's the raping, torturing and murdering associated with it in many cases that's sin. This kind of kidnapping is done out of love, for protection. Yes I think that overrides the law of the lands. I think you should try to do it without lying, if possible. Most of the time God makes things like that possible. I'm not advocating lying unless there is no other way to protect an innocent. When the law fails to protect an innocent, that's when the court system is of no use to me.