Works vs Doctrine

[BilliardsBall]

Huh???

Please allow me to explain. I have a bunch of paint samples, piled on my desk, stapled together, like a book. All the paint samples are yellow, and from my memory of them, or looking at their sides when piled on a shelf, they still seem pretty yellow to me. But you come along and say, "Taken as a unit, all those paint samples are really green."

You keep writing, "The whole Bible says we're saved by doing works," yet the Bible is filled from end-to-end with "Trust God for salvation," in the same way believers trust God for life issues, they trust Him for eternal life.

To me, that's like saying "Taken as a whole book, Mein Kampf is very kind to the Jewish people," when opening most pages at random show hate toward God's Chosen.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hi UA,


You wrote: "Faith is an action. Your actions are a part of your faith."

I'm not changing the definition of words, I'm telling you that in English Bibles, where we see "belief" and "faith" and "trust" the Greek word is the same, "pisteuo". Faith is trust and trust is faith. I trust you to be honest, but I cannot take any action that forces you to be honest or dishonest. Faith is not a feeling and is not an action, though it leads to feelings and actions, sometimes.

Faith is trust in Greek and in English Bibles. Trust is faith in Greek and in English Bibles. However, I use the word trust as more clear than the jargon word faith, because people have many ideas about faith, like faith is blind or faith is an action or lifestyle.


You wrote, "Where in scripture does it define faith apart from service to god?"

A number of places, including Ephesians 2, which you like to quote: "Salvation is by faith, apart from works [service to God]." That is, there is no faith that is a work and no work that is part of faith!


You wrote, "But, this is specific. What is faith? Faith is belief to things not seen does nothing."

Actually, Hebrews 11:1 says " . . . Faith is the evidence of unseen things . . . " We have faith that Jesus will return for us, because though we've never seen Him, we trust Him. My belief that Jesus will return of course leads me to action, but God actually separates belief from action, as He often rewards just the belief! For example, where it says in the OT that God stores our tears in His memory--our faith and belief is rewarded, even if actions don't follow. If actions do follow, there are extra rewards. Does that make sense to you?


You wrote: "Explain how belief or conviction saves you. If its not a thought or feeling, what exactly is faith thats separate from god movement through you (Scripure countless on this!)?"

Belief or conviction doesn't save a person, the cross of Christ saves. However, salvation is a free gift received via repentance (change of mind) and trust (faith in Christ). Specifically, when a person stops having faith in themselves and their works to save, and thinks or says, "Aha! I cannot save myself, but Christ can save me! Thank you, Jesus, for saving me! I transfer my trust today for salvation from myself to you!"

After this salvation, some people will grow seeds 30, 60, 100-fold, and God will judge believers based on their righteous/unrighteous works. But salvation is a gift, rewards are earned.


You wrote: "What is faith without gods works through you that is your salvation?"

The Bible never, ever, ever, ever, ever says, in even one verse, that "God's works through me are my salvation". Never, but it does say many, many, many times that 1) Christ's cross and resurrection are salvation 2) The cross and resurrection power are received as a free gift, through faith/belief/trust. By the way, "belief" is mental also, even though it leads to action (sometimes).


You wrote: "What is salvation without god working through you so that you can live the gift not set it on the shelf to look pretty?"

The gift is "pretty" even for unbelievers who do not take it, because it is God dying for me, while I was His enemy! (Romans 6). Respectfully, everyone I know who believes 1) salvation is from works and/or 2) salvation can be lost keeps saying, "the gift is no good unless we show gratitude", a statement nowhere in the Bible. If I give you $1,000,000 and you spit in my face to "say thanks, but no thanks", $1,000,000 is still a good gift!

The Bible also says, "Every good gift comes from God above..." and the greatest gift in history is the cross and resurrection of Christ. This fact is my eternal life!

I will come back.


You have to explain what faith is its not

1. Conviction
2. Trust
3. Action
Combined.

What exactly is faith?

Belief in things not seen does not save. It does nothing unless you are thinking it true. Using your brain to trust something is true without it being true just in your head.

Saying this is Greek and Roman and Hebrew translation doesnt mean anything to me because I dont know you so the only thing I can trust is the english translation. I see a lot of -the greek defi. is this- online as if that makes it something more fact or authorative.

I dont buy it

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Please allow me to explain. I have a bunch of paint samples, piled on my desk, stapled together, like a book. All the paint samples are yellow, and from my memory of them, or looking at their sides when piled on a shelf, they still seem pretty yellow to me. But you come along and say, "Taken as a unit, all those paint samples are really green."

Its more like all the colors (Book) are one color (Unit) of a light spectrum. I keep insisting the colors make up one unit or are all white (OT/NT) and you keep picking colors like red (Isolated scripture) to prove it is separate from green, orange, and yellow but still maintain they are colors.

Salvation (white) is made up of green (god), red (believer), orange (gods works through believer), and yellow (christ life and resurrection). They all make up white.

When you say one color does not go with another color, its spliting the spectrum so its spliting salvation (thus god) in parts. Thats not he way the bible as a unit (the colors making up the light spectrum) works.

Just because you can't swe white (what I'm telling you) doesnt mean it's not true. You have to look beyond the colors you see and understand the spectrum not just what you see that makes it up. That and faith isn't just defining colors; thats theology, its using them too.
1. Paint samples together (salvation)

2. Red/yellow/blue paint make up salvation

3 Letting god work through you to paint the walls is also part of salvation

4, Not doing the work yourself but letting god do it through you is faith.

Youre missing that works are about god working through you not you alone. There is no you in works only god. Thats why works is part of salvation. It hasn nothing to do with you only god. Saying it isnt is spliting god up.

You keep writing, "The whole Bible says we're saved by doing works," yet the Bible is filled from end-to-end with "Trust God for salvation," in the same way believers trust God for life issues, they trust Him for eternal life.

Cause you are NOT listening to me. You must draw your own conclusions not word or word.

1. The bible works as a unit: OT and NT and all the scriptures
2. Faith is trust and action. Trust and action is a conviction. When you are commited to christ, you are saved. When christ works through you, that is your salvation.

You are saved because you let christ work through you not just I-believe, poof! Im-saved.

Thats not trust, thats blind faith and a psychological convincing yourself what scripture says is true without living out what you think is true in order to be true beyond what you think in your head and heart.

You really spliting god up. I cant keep quoting verses and youre not taking them as a unit in order to understand what I mean before you disagree with the verses. You must show the scripture I post is wrong for your scripture to have some affect separately from what I posted.

You have to show your scripture contradicts mine in order for your view to make sense, since the scripture you quote only supports my point.

-The scripture you quote supports my point. Gotta go deeper without throwing in the Greek and Hebrew. Im not fluent in it so I can only use the language Im native in. If the translation is wrong, or off, why trust the bible.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I will come back.


You have to explain what faith is its not

1. Conviction
2. Trust
3. Action
Combined.

What exactly is faith?

Belief in things not seen does not save. It does nothing unless you are thinking it true. Using your brain to trust something is true without it being true just in your head.

Saying this is Greek and Roman and Hebrew translation doesnt mean anything to me because I dont know you so the only thing I can trust is the english translation. I see a lot of -the greek defi. is this- online as if that makes it something more fact or authorative.

I dont buy it

Hi UA,


You wrote: "You have to explain what faith is its not

1. Conviction
2. Trust
3. Action
Combined.

What exactly is faith?"

I'm a Jew who was Bar Mitzvah and know a little Hebrew, I also have about a year of university Greek. I also witness to many people, and many of the objections people have to Christianity revolve around misunderstandings in English Bibles. For example, in the NASB version, the word we are discussing is translated this way in English, (and this many times, the numbers that follow are the number of times "pisteuo" becomes a certain word in context:

believe 118, believed 73, believers 3, believes 29, believing 10, do 1, entrust 1, entrusted 6, entrusting 1, has faith 1

This NAS is a Bible which has every New Testament passage taken straight from Greek to English by two or more expert translators, and then all of them meet to discuss, review and follow up on every NT passage.

Belief is not an action--it is a mental state or choice--here the action is "repent", which means "change one's mind", from "I save" to "Jesus saves".

We've talked a lot about trust or entrust--it is an action of the mind, will and heart, and the Bible says, "Believe in your heart" to be saved, justified.

I'm glad you trust the English Bible, and I do trust it also! God's Word is God's Word in all languages, able to save. But if you were to look at 100 different English Bibles, I can tell you in advance that all 100 of them will translate "pisteuo" as "faith" and/or "believe" and or "trust/entrust".

I know I'm sharing the right gospel, because when I share with people, "Free gift! Trust Jesus's death and resurrection to pay for your sin, guilt and shame, free gift!" most of them opt out and some trust.


You wrote: "Belief in things not seen does not save."

Why then, when Thomas confessed Jesus as Lord and God, did Jesus say, "You've just gotten blessed, but more blessed are those who don't see me in person and believe"? Why then does Paul write "You love Him though you do not see Him." I've never seen the cross of Christ, but literally several hundred times the NT says the death and resurrection of Christ is salvation.


You wrote: "It does nothing unless you are thinking it true. Using your brain to trust something is true without it being true just in your head."

But my head affects my heart and my mouth, and the Bible says, "Believing in your heart and confessing with your mouth, you are saved." What does that verse in Romans 10 say about "works, actions," etc.? Nothing. Why do you read verses from the Bible then tell me they are not true?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Its more like all the colors (Book) are one color (Unit) of a light spectrum. I keep insisting the colors make up one unit or are all white (OT/NT) and you keep picking colors like red (Isolated scripture) to prove it is separate from green, orange, and yellow but still maintain they are colors.

Salvation (white) is made up of green (god), red (believer), orange (gods works through believer), and yellow (christ life and resurrection). They all make up white.

When you say one color does not go with another color, its spliting the spectrum so its spliting salvation (thus god) in parts. Thats not he way the bible as a unit (the colors making up the light spectrum) works.

Just because you can't swe white (what I'm telling you) doesnt mean it's not true. You have to look beyond the colors you see and understand the spectrum not just what you see that makes it up. That and faith isn't just defining colors; thats theology, its using them too.
1. Paint samples together (salvation)

2. Red/yellow/blue paint make up salvation

3 Letting god work through you to paint the walls is also part of salvation

4, Not doing the work yourself but letting god do it through you is faith.

Youre missing that works are about god working through you not you alone. There is no you in works only god. Thats why works is part of salvation. It hasn nothing to do with you only god. Saying it isnt is spliting god up.



Cause you are NOT listening to me. You must draw your own conclusions not word or word.

1. The bible works as a unit: OT and NT and all the scriptures
2. Faith is trust and action. Trust and action is a conviction. When you are commited to christ, you are saved. When christ works through you, that is your salvation.

You are saved because you let christ work through you not just I-believe, poof! Im-saved.

Thats not trust, thats blind faith and a psychological convincing yourself what scripture says is true without living out what you think is true in order to be true beyond what you think in your head and heart.

You really spliting god up. I cant keep quoting verses and youre not taking them as a unit in order to understand what I mean before you disagree with the verses. You must show the scripture I post is wrong for your scripture to have some affect separately from what I posted.

You have to show your scripture contradicts mine in order for your view to make sense, since the scripture you quote only supports my point.

-The scripture you quote supports my point. Gotta go deeper without throwing in the Greek and Hebrew. Im not fluent in it so I can only use the language Im native in. If the translation is wrong, or off, why trust the bible.

Here's the issue, I can see verses in the Bible that clearly say:

Salvation (white) is made up of green (god), red (believer) and yellow (christ life and resurrection). Because each of those lovely colors is in literally thousands of different verses and Bible passages.

Not one passage or verse in the Bible says anything like "salvation is orange (gods works through believer)". Not one, there is no orange in parts of the Bible or in the whole of the Bible. You are misunderstanding/misinterpreting some commonly misunderstood salvation passages.

I appreciate your dedication to having and teaching others the right gospel. Have you prayed to Jesus about this recently? I have, "Jesus, I share you with many people, all the time. If UA is correct and I'm wrong, please help me understand, so that I can help people find eternal life, not Hell."

Try that prayer, fervently, switch BB for UA. God will show you if you want to know!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hi UA,


You wrote: "You have to explain what faith is its not

1. Conviction
2. Trust
3. Action
Combined.

What exactly is faith?"

I'm a Jew who was Bar Mitzvah and know a little Hebrew, I also have about a year of university Greek. I also witness to many people, and many of the objections people have to Christianity revolve around misunderstandings in English Bibles. For example, in the NASB version, the word we are discussing is translated this way in English, (and this many times, the numbers that follow are the number of times "pisteuo" becomes a certain word in context:

believe 118, believed 73, believers 3, believes 29, believing 10, do 1, entrust 1, entrusted 6, entrusting 1, has faith 1

This NAS is a Bible which has every New Testament passage taken straight from Greek to English by two or more expert translators, and then all of them meet to discuss, review and follow up on every NT passage.

Belief is not an action--it is a mental state or choice--here the action is "repent", which means "change one's mind", from "I save" to "Jesus saves".

We've talked a lot about trust or entrust--it is an action of the mind, will and heart, and the Bible says, "Believe in your heart" to be saved, justified.

I'm glad you trust the English Bible, and I do trust it also! God's Word is God's Word in all languages, able to save. But if you were to look at 100 different English Bibles, I can tell you in advance that all 100 of them will translate "pisteuo" as "faith" and/or "believe" and or "trust/entrust".

I know I'm sharing the right gospel, because when I share with people, "Free gift! Trust Jesus's death and resurrection to pay for your sin, guilt and shame, free gift!" most of them opt out and some trust.


You wrote: "Belief in things not seen does not save."

Why then, when Thomas confessed Jesus as Lord and God, did Jesus say, "You've just gotten blessed, but more blessed are those who don't see me in person and believe"? Why then does Paul write "You love Him though you do not see Him." I've never seen the cross of Christ, but literally several hundred times the NT says the death and resurrection of Christ is salvation.


You wrote: "It does nothing unless you are thinking it true. Using your brain to trust something is true without it being true just in your head."

But my head affects my heart and my mouth, and the Bible says, "Believing in your heart and confessing with your mouth, you are saved." What does that verse in Romans 10 say about "works, actions," etc.? Nothing. Why do you read verses from the Bible then tell me they are not true?

I'm very simple billard.

When you believe in something (christ) you develop trust/faith (he died for me), when you have strong faith you make a conviction (be my lord and savior), when you made your conviction, you act on it (I will serve you. Work through me so that I do good works From You not from me) so, works is not mine but yours lord.

It is not seperate. All these work in the process of salvation.

Your studies are beside the point.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Here's the issue, I can see verses in the Bible that clearly say:

Salvation (white) is made up of green (god), red (believer) and yellow (christ life and resurrection). Because each of those lovely colors is in literally thousands of different verses and Bible passages.

Not one passage or verse in the Bible says anything like "salvation is orange (gods works through believer)". Not one, there is no orange in parts of the Bible or in the whole of the Bible. You are misunderstanding/misinterpreting some commonly misunderstood salvation passages.

I appreciate your dedication to having and teaching others the right gospel. Have you prayed to Jesus about this recently? I have, "Jesus, I share you with many people, all the time. If UA is correct and I'm wrong, please help me understand, so that I can help people find eternal life, not Hell."

Try that prayer, fervently, switch BB for UA. God will show you if you want to know!

So you're saying god has nothing to do with your actions. He just want you to sit in the arm chair and say lord-lord and poof! You saved???

Action=righteous works from god.

It means using the paint (live salvation) not just marvel at the gift.

 

[2ndpillar]

So you're saying god has nothing to do with your actions. He just want you to sit in the arm chair and say lord-lord and poof! You saved???

Action=righteous works from god.

It means using the paint (live salvation) not just marvel at the gift.

The false gospel of grace/cross, from the "false" prophet (Matthew 7:15), who is dressed as a "sheep", who provides a "broad" "way" (Matthew 7:13), such as you can yell "Lord, Lord" (Matthew 7:22) and be saved (Romans10:3). The image of the cross, which was given to the beast with two horns like a lamb (Constantine), from his god Sol Invictus at the battle of Milvian Bridge, in 312 AD, is part and parcel of the image of the mark of the beast. The bearers of the mark of the beast, must drink from the cup of God's wrath (Revelation 14:10). Good luck with that.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The false gospel of grace/cross, from the "false" prophet (Matthew 7:15), who is dressed as a "sheep", who provides a "broad" "way" (Matthew 7:13), such as you can yell "Lord, Lord" (Matthew 7:22) and be saved (Romans10:3). The image of the cross, which was given to the beast with two horns like a lamb (Constantine), from his god Sol Invictus at the battle of Milvian Bridge, in 312 AD, is part and parcel of the image of the mark of the beast. The bearers of the mark of the beast, must drink from the cup of God's wrath (Revelation 14:10). Good luck with that.

Huh???

 

[2ndpillar]

Huh???

There is more to life and death than becoming compost.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There is more to life and death than becoming compost.

Because we will be compost, life is worth living

 

[BilliardsBall]

I'm very simple billard.

When you believe in something (christ) you develop trust/faith (he died for me), when you have strong faith you make a conviction (be my lord and savior), when you made your conviction, you act on it (I will serve you. Work through me so that I do good works From You not from me) so, works is not mine but yours lord.

It is not seperate. All these work in the process of salvation.

Your studies are beside the point.

The Bible separates salvation (trusting Jesus for sin payment) from sanctification (growing toward God, doing works based on the conviction you wrote about above). This helps us understand verses like Hebrews 14:10:

"For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."

If we do differently, and bring salvation/proof of salvation/sanctification together, we instead change the verse to read:

"For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who have been made holy."

Simply understanding the difference between salvation and sanctification will help flow your Bible study better. I have nothing more to say on this subject today, you may have the last word.

Thanks!

 

[BilliardsBall]

So you're saying god has nothing to do with your actions. He just want you to sit in the arm chair and say lord-lord and poof! You saved???

Action=righteous works from god.

It means using the paint (live salvation) not just marvel at the gift.

I've never ever ever ever ever said what you wrote above, "god has nothing to do with your actions". For example, Ephesians 2 says, "we are made to do good works with the help of God". There are many other such verses, too. We will show on Judgment Day the works we've done in God.

This is the problem with your note, where you wrote, "He just want you to sit in the arm chair and say lord-lord and poof! You saved???"

Actually instead, Jesus Christ, who never did anything wrong, was beaten to a pulp, stripped naked, scourged and crucified, and then while crucified, tasted death and received the full measure of the wrath of God. Is this "poof" to you?

The reason why people do only a little to be saved is because Jesus did a lot, which is why the Bible says many times, salvation is a gift, not a reward. That's it for me for now. Feel free to have the last word on this concept.

Thanks.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The Bible separates salvation (trusting Jesus for sin payment) from sanctification (growing toward God, doing works based on the conviction you wrote about above). This helps us understand verses like Hebrews 14:10:

"For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."

If we do differently, and bring salvation/proof of salvation/sanctification together, we instead change the verse to read:

"For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who have been made holy."

Simply understanding the difference between salvation and sanctification will help flow your Bible study better. I have nothing more to say on this subject today, you may have the last word.

Thanks!

Hey. I don't know how it changes salvation and invalidates it all because you see it different.

That is exactly why denominations split. You guys don't draw your own conclusions and when not doing so, leaves you debating and proving rather than learning and understanding How each person lives christ whether you want to divide him in two or experience the passion as a whole.

It's all you guys interpretations. I am.baffles bow you guys don' see that. The only way we can stop killing g people is change the way we think to learn and work together.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I've never ever ever ever ever said what you wrote above, "god has nothing to do with your actions". For example, Ephesians 2 says, "we are made to do good works with the help of God". There are many other such verses, too. We will show on Judgment Day the works we've done in God.

This is the problem with your note, where you wrote, "He just want you to sit in the arm chair and say lord-lord and poof! You saved???"

Actually instead, Jesus Christ, who never did anything wrong, was beaten to a pulp, stripped naked, scourged and crucified, and then while crucified, tasted death and received the full measure of the wrath of God. Is this "poof" to you?

The reason why people do only a little to be saved is because Jesus did a lot, which is why the Bible says many times, salvation is a gift, not a reward. That's it for me for now. Feel free to have the last word on this concept.

Thanks.

My point is the Passion and Trinity are not seperated.

Life (lesson)
Sacrifice(action/works)
Resurrection (salvation)

You can split the trinity if you want. Splitting theology and study doesn't invalidate the union between righteous works and salvation.

Why have a gift if you're not going to use it?

Why use a gift if it's not part of salvation?

Gotta draw conclusions on your own. If it's all literal than your be drinking christ blood and eating his flesh, believing Moses parted the red Sea, and jesus actual body floating up to the sky Only little over 2000 years ago.

Weird but if you take it that literal, Im speechless.

 

[Milton Platt]

The problem is particularly rampant among Protestants. As far as I'm aware, both Catholic and Orthodox churches maintain that works are essential for salvation. But I'm no expert on Catholic/Orthodox theology.

I don't know how many of the denominations fall into the protestant category (everything outside of Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy?) but I have had plenty of theists tell me you "just have to accept Jesus as your savior" or something to that effect.
But I've also noticed that the Bible says that "faith without works is dead". I'm not a theist, but thought I'd toss that out there.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm going to toss out a thought, too. I don't believe that Jesus Christ's Atonement was designed solely to bring God's children back to Him, but to bring them back to Him changed. If we're just sitting around thinking, "Well, it's a good thing Jesus did a lot; that lets me off the hook," we're a sorry bunch of losers and a huge disappointment to God. I am grateful for my firm belief that God thinks enough of me to let me start with a clean slate every single solitary time I mess up, because He knows I want to be the kind of daughter who will make Him proud. If I don't leave this life having done all I can to be the best person I can possibly be -- regardless of the fact that "Jesus did a lot" and "salvation is a gift" -- I'll be utterly ashamed of myself.

 

[2ndpillar]

I'm going to toss out a thought, too. I don't believe that Jesus Christ's Atonement was designed solely to bring God's children back to Him, but to bring them back to Him changed. If we're just sitting around thinking, "Well, it's a good thing Jesus did a lot; that lets me off the hook," we're a sorry bunch of losers and a huge disappointment to God. I am grateful for my firm belief that God thinks enough of me to let me start with a clean slate every single solitary time I mess up, because He knows I want to be the kind of daughter who will make Him proud. If I don't leave this life having done all I can to be the best person I can possibly be -- regardless of the fact that "Jesus did a lot" and "salvation is a gift" -- I'll be utterly ashamed of myself.

After the "day of distress" (Jeremiah 16:19), if you are among the "survivors" (Joel 2:32) & (Revelation 9:20), your confession, as one among the Gentiles/nations, will be "Our fathers have inherited nothing but falsehood" (Jeremiah 16:19).

King James Bible (Revelation 9:20)
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

 

[Oeste]

I don't know how many of the denominations fall into the protestant category (everything outside of Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy?) but I have had plenty of theists tell me you "just have to accept Jesus as your savior" or something to that effect.

Accepting Jesus as your savior means you have been born again (John 3:3). This is a work from above, and not of yourself, so that no may boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9) So you cannot just "think" your way to salvation, as some of our works based friends have been suggesting.

Also, I want to draw everyone's attention to what is being said here. "FAITH without works is dead". No where does it say "SALVATION without works is lost" which is the argument and assertion of our works based friends. It simply is not in the bible.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (Eph 2)
Note that both faith and salvation are not of our doing, but are the works of God.

So we cannot "think" our way to Salvation as some critics here have suggested. We rely on God's grace, His calling, to save us. Once we are called and born again (regenerated) we "..have been saved". This is probably the "...something to that effect" your theist friends were referring to.

This leads to the second point...that salvation is NOT something we MIGHT get in the future, but something the born again Christian is assured they have now.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life ..." John 5:24

If you or someone you know are in a works based Christian religion, you simply replace "has eternal life" with "has a chance to earn eternal life".

 

[Milton Platt]

Accepting Jesus as your savior means you have been born again (John 3:3). This is a work from above, and not of yourself, so that no may boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9) So you cannot just "think" your way to salvation, as some of our works based friends have been suggesting.

Also, I want to draw everyone's attention to what is being said here. "FAITH without works is dead". No where does it say "SALVATION without works is lost" which is the argument and assertion of our works based friends. It simply is not in the bible.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (Eph 2)
Note that both faith and salvation are not of our doing, but are the works of God.

So we cannot "think" our way to Salvation as some critics here have suggested. We rely on God's grace, His calling, to save us. Once we are called and born again (regenerated) we "..have been saved". This is probably the "...something to that effect" your theist friends were referring to.

This leads to the second point...that salvation is NOT something we MIGHT get in the future, but something the born again Christian is assured they have now.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life ..." John 5:24

If you or someone you know are in a works based Christian religion, you simply replace "has eternal life" with "has a chance to earn eternal life".

You said: "Also, I want to draw everyone's attention to what is being said here. "FAITH without works is dead". No where does it say "SALVATION without works is lost" which is the argument and assertion of our works based friends. It simply is not in the bible. Can you have faith and not salvation? Can you have salvation and not faith (dead faith)?