Works vs Doctrine

[Unveiled Artist]

Salvation through faith =jacked by works
Salvation through works=jacked by works.

I miss this since I wasnt quoted. What do you mean by those two statements?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Circumstances arent blessings. Jesus explained this. Prosperity gospel is insane.

Prosperty gospel?

I dont see the relation?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The thread isprosperity gospel. Thats what that is.

What are you referring to?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No im not interested.

Youre confusing me. You mentioned something about sometihng you dont want to talk about; then, say youre not interested.

Interested in what???

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You said the blessing thing, the thread. Thats properity gospel, the poster didnt want to hear the answer. Not going to waste any effort on this.

Thank you. Yeah, you read it different than the rest of us. That and clarify what you meant by blessings since we didnt read prosperity gospel so saying there are no blessings from god


do you see why we were shocked??

 

[BilliardsBall]

That would mean I can do it right now and walla! Saved just by speaking the words?

I can go off and on salvation just by thinking?

One cannot lose one's salvation ("go off" as you wrote). One must:

1) understand mentally that one cannot save oneself

2) understand that Jesus saves

3) do the part that is very difficult, that many people will not do, transfer trust from self to Jesus

Anything you add to this, anything you say we must do to be saved, diminishes what Jesus did, and is not biblical.

If salvation is "easy" in my view as you wrote, why do so many people refuse to trust Jesus when presented with this, the true gospel?

 

[BilliardsBall]

That would mean the verses I posted are false.

The verses I posted are as is. You didnt go through them eac (there were over ten) and defintely didnt address the comments I had on each of the verses.

I honestly feel you have a one-way thinking as if you cannot learn from anyone nor anything unless stated word for word in the correct order frm scirpture. Scripture (and any book, especially non-english books) just isnt like that.

You can read into it if you want.

I rather you take your time to go through them then tell me I am wrong in my intepretation. If I think in my head -I am saved- Id asume my interpertations will be like yours?

You have the correct interpretations that surpass god????

I'm able to get into each and every verse you've posted, and explain each and every one using context and hermeneutics, but will not for a simple reason, you will respond, "The whole Bible disagrees." You've presented about a dozen verses, I've presented several hundred verses. If I add yours to mine, you will still say, "The whole Bible says..."

If you want to choose one verse or passage at a time, we can look at it.

No, my interpretations do not surpass God's, however, either the Bible teaches works are needed for salvation or not, only one of those interpretations agrees with God.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

One cannot lose one's salvation ("go off" as you wrote). One must:

1) understand mentally that one cannot save oneself

2) understand that Jesus saves

3) do the part that is very difficult, that many people will not do, transfer trust from self to Jesus

Anything you add to this, anything you say we must do to be saved, diminishes what Jesus did, and is not biblical.

If salvation is "easy" in my view as you wrote, why do so many people refuse to trust Jesus when presented with this, the true gospel?

Understanding and trust arent actions. I can do that now and I would be saved.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm able to get into each and every verse you've posted, and explain each and every one using context and hermeneutics, but will not for a simple reason, you will respond, "The whole Bible disagrees." You've presented about a dozen verses, I've presented several hundred verses. If I add yours to mine, you will still say, "The whole Bible says..."

If you want to choose one verse or passage at a time, we can look at it.

No, my interpretations do not surpass God's, however, either the Bible teaches works are needed for salvation or not, only one of those interpretations agrees with God.

If your interpretations did not surpass gods, you wouldnt be defending your interpretation as correct over others both christian and nonchristian alike.

But I have a lot of time on my hands for the next couple of months. So, I have time to go over and list scripture as well as comment. Some posts were just one or two scriptures but, like others, they were bypassed.

Saying james is not a correct translation as other scriptures floored me.

-

Since works means: what god does through you for god and others, how is that separate from faith when you need faith in order for him to work through you to act and liven salvation from dead seeds to full crop???

 

[BilliardsBall]

Understanding and trust arent actions. I can do that now and I would be saved.

Yes, because we are not saved by our actions, but by the actions of Christ's death and resurrection. The Bible says hundreds of times that Christ died for sin and resurrected for our salvation, justification, sanctification, to receive the Holy Spirit, etc. In fact, this is a great point in Ephesians 1, that only those who have personally trusted Christ will receive the Spirit as a deposit or guarantee of salvation, and that the Spirit permanently indwells them, empowering them for righteous deeds. So it is:

1) Trust Christ
2) Receive the Spirit
3) Do deeds that glorify God

Skipping 1) and 2) to "do righteous deeds from our sense of religion" is not salvation. There are people who do this or attempt to do this, and do not know the Savior. Sharing the true gospel is our burden and our most important righteous work.

 

[BilliardsBall]

If your interpretations did not surpass gods, you wouldnt be defending your interpretation as correct over others both christian and nonchristian alike.

But I have a lot of time on my hands for the next couple of months. So, I have time to go over and list scripture as well as comment. Some posts were just one or two scriptures but, like others, they were bypassed.

Saying james is not a correct translation as other scriptures floored me.

-

Since works means: what god does through you for god and others, how is that separate from faith when you need faith in order for him to work through you to act and liven salvation from dead seeds to full crop???

I never said "James isn't a correct translation in English". I said we disagree on what James is saying about salvation, because we interpret the same verses differently. Chapter 2 says, "Faith without works is dead" and Chapter 1 says "True religion is to help widows and orphans." But I don't tell people to be more religious to get to Heaven, because religion is about perfecting myself instead of the resurrection of Jesus perfecting me, and I don't tell people, "To get to Heaven, help widows and orphans." Adolf Hitler did a few nice things for widows of war vets, but he was a horrible person.

I also never "separated faith from works for doing works". To do the works of God, you work with God, from God, just as Jesus said, when asked about His identity, saying, "You know I'm real because I do the very works of God." However, Jesus being God, didn't need a faith boost to do works. The longer one is a Christian, the more works one does, often without needing special prayer or faith. I just do the right thing from practice.

However, salvation is a gift to be opened, not a lifestyle to emulate:

1) Heaven is a perfect place
2) Only the morally perfect can enter
3) Even born again Christians aren't morally perfect
4) Jesus will morally perfect Christians at the Rapture
5) To go to the Rapture, one must choose to trust Jesus, not themselves, for salvation

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes, because we are not saved by our actions, but by the actions of Christ's death and resurrection. The Bible says hundreds of times that Christ died for sin and resurrected for our salvation, justification, sanctification, to receive the Holy Spirit, etc. In fact, this is a great point in Ephesians 1, that only those who have personally trusted Christ will receive the Spirit as a deposit or guarantee of salvation, and that the Spirit permanently indwells them, empowering them for righteous deeds. So it is:

1) Trust Christ
2) Receive the Spirit
3) Do deeds that glorify God

Skipping 1) and 2) to "do righteous deeds from our sense of religion" is not salvation. There are people who do this or attempt to do this, and do not know the Savior. Sharing the true gospel is our burden and our most important righteous work.

You must read the bible as a unit. This supports what I'm saying.

I cannot be saved just by thinking. I need faith.

Faith is not a feeling.
It is not a thought

It conviction. It's an action.

Thr act/works of salvation is not from you but from god. No works=deny god. Empty faith. Dead faith.

Also,

What you say is theology not spirituality. I know how to be saved as written. As practiced is totally different. I can read all the saved text in the world but by analogy I am not saved by the bible, I am saved by christ.

Christ saves me through his actions through me

It is not my works that saves me but his.​

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes, because we are not saved by our actions, but by the actions of Christ's death and resurrection. The Bible says hundreds of times that Christ died for sin and resurrected for our salvation, justification, sanctification, to receive the Holy Spirit,

Christ resurection saves you because of your faith Ephesians 2:8; and, your faith isnt justified without your actions. They work together. Colossians 3:23-24 --->> This is works.

Without works, christ does not work through you. As a result, no salvation because faith is a conviction and convictions are followed up by actions. I-trust-you god is just calling out Lord. Lord. Matthew 7:21-23 Actions cement that trust and conviction; thereby, your actions are justified by christ not of men.

There is no need to judge people by the fruit of their fiath Romans 2:6-10 when their works supposedly doesnt let one live their salvation. You dont get awards for doing nothing. Faith is conviction. That conviction is justified by god not man. 2 Corinthians 5:10

Titus 1:16 They claim to know god, but their actions deny him. Its not all in James. Actions are part of salvation. IN and THRUOGH, and OF god not of man nor the law. only god. Titus 2:14 Since works is part of salvation, you have to put aside man-issues and law and see salvation as a part of service to god (remember. the bible works as a unit)

John 14:15 Salvation is part of the love of god. The love of god and grace are a part of faith. If you dont have faith, there is no conviction outside Lord-Lord. Since there is no conviction matured (conviction does grow you dont get it matured on the spot) faith means nothing.

Romans 3:28 This works is different than this works Philippians 2:13.

You need works of god to be saved not works of man and the law.

In fact, this is a great point in Ephesians 1, that only those who have personally trusted Christ will receive the Spirit as a deposit or guarantee of salvation, and that the Spirit permanently indwells them, empowering them for righteous deeds. So it is:

Yes. I quoted many many many scriptures on righteous deeds. You gatta read my posts.

There are two types of works: unrighteous deeds revelations 2:11 and righteous deeds Philippians 2:13

Salvation is part of the latter not the former.

Trust Christ
2) Receive the Spirit
3) Do deeds that glorify Go

What is trust without action? Conviction is not passive.
You cant receive the spirit without serving god
As a result, if you do not do deeds to glorify god, by what reason and meaning is the gift you hoped you received even though you dont know (faith)?

How does hope for things not seen save you? (NOT theology. I know scripture says this. But how do you explain it to yourself and others your conviction not pauls and johns?

Skipping 1) and 2) to "do righteous deeds from our sense of religion" is not salvation. There are people who do this or attempt to do this, and do not know the Savior. Sharing the true gospel is our burden and our most important righteous work.

Salvation is a packaged deal. Its a lifestyle.

Its weird that you would go to heaven without lifting a finger.

How can god work through you and liven his salvation in you when you feel grace and faith is enough?

How does god work through you if faith is not an action just a feeling and thought?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I said we disagree on what James is saying about salvation, because we interpret the same verses differently. C

The bible works as a unit. Titus follows up on james, I notice. There arent two definitions of faith and conviction only works.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You must read the bible as a unit. This supports what I'm saying.

I cannot be saved just by thinking. I need faith.

Faith is not a feeling.
It is not a thought

It conviction. It's an action.

Thr act/works of salvation is not from you but from god. No works=deny god. Empty faith. Dead faith.

Also,

What you say is theology not spirituality. I know how to be saved as written. As practiced is totally different. I can read all the saved text in the world but by analogy I am not saved by the bible, I am saved by christ.

Christ saves me through his actions through me

It is not my works that saves me but his.​

Faith is not a feeling, yes. Faith is a thought, however, since it is trust. I transferred my trust from saving myself (works) to Jesus Christ (free gift).

Faith sometimes leads to inaction, for example, "Jesus, I have faith/trust that you will respond to this person, so I will do nothing".

And I'm sorry, but "the whole Bible says this" means nothing to me for two reasons: 1) I've read the whole Bible at least a dozen times and come up with different doctrines and 2) How can the "whole Bible" contain any doctrines there are no verses for? There is not one verse that says "faith is an action," for just one example.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Christ resurection saves you because of your faith Ephesians 2:8; and, your faith isnt justified without your actions. They work together. Colossians 3:23-24 --->> This is works.

Without works, christ does not work through you. As a result, no salvation because faith is a conviction and convictions are followed up by actions. I-trust-you god is just calling out Lord. Lord. Matthew 7:21-23 Actions cement that trust and conviction; thereby, your actions are justified by christ not of men.

There is no need to judge people by the fruit of their fiath Romans 2:6-10 when their works supposedly doesnt let one live their salvation. You dont get awards for doing nothing. Faith is conviction. That conviction is justified by god not man. 2 Corinthians 5:10

Titus 1:16 They claim to know god, but their actions deny him. Its not all in James. Actions are part of salvation. IN and THRUOGH, and OF god not of man nor the law. only god. Titus 2:14 Since works is part of salvation, you have to put aside man-issues and law and see salvation as a part of service to god (remember. the bible works as a unit)

John 14:15 Salvation is part of the love of god. The love of god and grace are a part of faith. If you dont have faith, there is no conviction outside Lord-Lord. Since there is no conviction matured (conviction does grow you dont get it matured on the spot) faith means nothing.

Romans 3:28 This works is different than this works Philippians 2:13.

You need works of god to be saved not works of man and the law.



Yes. I quoted many many many scriptures on righteous deeds. You gatta read my posts.

There are two types of works: unrighteous deeds revelations 2:11 and righteous deeds Philippians 2:13

Salvation is part of the latter not the former.



What is trust without action? Conviction is not passive.
You cant receive the spirit without serving god
As a result, if you do not do deeds to glorify god, by what reason and meaning is the gift you hoped you received even though you dont know (faith)?

How does hope for things not seen save you? (NOT theology. I know scripture says this. But how do you explain it to yourself and others your conviction not pauls and johns?



Salvation is a packaged deal. Its a lifestyle.

Its weird that you would go to heaven without lifting a finger.

How can god work through you and liven his salvation in you when you feel grace and faith is enough?

How does god work through you if faith is not an action just a feeling and thought?

I do read your posts, for example, Colossians says (which you quoted) 23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; 24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. – I’ve already said that rewards/crowns, which are mentioned in the Bible for believers, are not salvation. Doesn’t it make sense that God would do extra for people who do and give extra?

But I also said that since you have different doctrine (no rewards except salvation) that it's pointless to go through dozens of verses. Let's stick to one at a time, please. I've discussed Colossians as you mentioned, which says (I agree with you) we get rewards.

Now let's discuss one of my verses. John 3 says,

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

This seems a very clear statement that we are saved by trust, not works, since the same word in Greek, pisteuo, is used throughout the NT for "believe", "faith", "trust". Why do you disagree with this verse, please?

 

[BilliardsBall]

The bible works as a unit. Titus follows up on james, I notice. There arent two definitions of faith and conviction only works.

There is a bunch of yellow in the Bible, and no green at all, and you are telling me the Bible is "green". I don't agree, but I've heard you, so let's move on to look together at one passage of scripture at a time.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Faith is not a feeling, yes. Faith is a thought, however, since it is trust. I transferred my trust from saving myself (works) to Jesus Christ (free gift).

Faith sometimes leads to inaction, for example, "Jesus, I have faith/trust that you will respond to this person, so I will do nothing".

And I'm sorry, but "the whole Bible says this" means nothing to me for two reasons: 1) I've read the whole Bible at least a dozen times and come up with different doctrines and 2) How can the "whole Bible" contain any doctrines there are no verses for? There is not one verse that says "faith is an action," for just one example.

You cant change the definition of words just because they are translated that way in scripture. English is english in scripture and in english speaking countries.

Faith is an action. Your actions are a part of your faith.

Where in scripture does it define faith apart from service to god?

But, this is specific. What is faith?

Faith is belief to things not seen does nothing.

Explain how belief or conviction saves you. If its not a thought or feeling, what exactly is faith thats separate from god movement through you (Scripure countless on this!)?

What is faith without gods works through you that is your salvation?

What is salvation without god working through you so that you can live the gift not set it on the shelf to look pretty?​

I have to try to minimize my posts since youre not reading it all and the points you make dont address my questions just restate your disagreement.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There is a bunch of yellow in the Bible, and no green at all, and you are telling me the Bible is "green". I don't agree, but I've heard you, so let's move on to look together at one passage of scripture at a time.

Huh???

 

[BilliardsBall]

You cant change the definition of words just because they are translated that way in scripture. English is english in scripture and in english speaking countries.

Faith is an action. Your actions are a part of your faith.

Where in scripture does it define faith apart from service to god?

But, this is specific. What is faith?

Faith is belief to things not seen does nothing.

Explain how belief or conviction saves you. If its not a thought or feeling, what exactly is faith thats separate from god movement through you (Scripure countless on this!)?

What is faith without gods works through you that is your salvation?

What is salvation without god working through you so that you can live the gift not set it on the shelf to look pretty?​

I have to try to minimize my posts since youre not reading it all and the points you make dont address my questions just restate your disagreement.

Hi UA,


You wrote: "Faith is an action. Your actions are a part of your faith."

I'm not changing the definition of words, I'm telling you that in English Bibles, where we see "belief" and "faith" and "trust" the Greek word is the same, "pisteuo". Faith is trust and trust is faith. I trust you to be honest, but I cannot take any action that forces you to be honest or dishonest. Faith is not a feeling and is not an action, though it leads to feelings and actions, sometimes.

Faith is trust in Greek and in English Bibles. Trust is faith in Greek and in English Bibles. However, I use the word trust as more clear than the jargon word faith, because people have many ideas about faith, like faith is blind or faith is an action or lifestyle.


You wrote, "Where in scripture does it define faith apart from service to god?"

A number of places, including Ephesians 2, which you like to quote: "Salvation is by faith, apart from works [service to God]." That is, there is no faith that is a work and no work that is part of faith!


You wrote, "But, this is specific. What is faith? Faith is belief to things not seen does nothing."

Actually, Hebrews 11:1 says " . . . Faith is the evidence of unseen things . . . " We have faith that Jesus will return for us, because though we've never seen Him, we trust Him. My belief that Jesus will return of course leads me to action, but God actually separates belief from action, as He often rewards just the belief! For example, where it says in the OT that God stores our tears in His memory--our faith and belief is rewarded, even if actions don't follow. If actions do follow, there are extra rewards. Does that make sense to you?


You wrote: "Explain how belief or conviction saves you. If its not a thought or feeling, what exactly is faith thats separate from god movement through you (Scripure countless on this!)?"

Belief or conviction doesn't save a person, the cross of Christ saves. However, salvation is a free gift received via repentance (change of mind) and trust (faith in Christ). Specifically, when a person stops having faith in themselves and their works to save, and thinks or says, "Aha! I cannot save myself, but Christ can save me! Thank you, Jesus, for saving me! I transfer my trust today for salvation from myself to you!"

After this salvation, some people will grow seeds 30, 60, 100-fold, and God will judge believers based on their righteous/unrighteous works. But salvation is a gift, rewards are earned.


You wrote: "What is faith without gods works through you that is your salvation?"

The Bible never, ever, ever, ever, ever says, in even one verse, that "God's works through me are my salvation". Never, but it does say many, many, many times that 1) Christ's cross and resurrection are salvation 2) The cross and resurrection power are received as a free gift, through faith/belief/trust. By the way, "belief" is mental also, even though it leads to action (sometimes).


You wrote: "What is salvation without god working through you so that you can live the gift not set it on the shelf to look pretty?"

The gift is "pretty" even for unbelievers who do not take it, because it is God dying for me, while I was His enemy! (Romans 6). Respectfully, everyone I know who believes 1) salvation is from works and/or 2) salvation can be lost keeps saying, "the gift is no good unless we show gratitude", a statement nowhere in the Bible. If I give you $1,000,000 and you spit in my face to "say thanks, but no thanks", $1,000,000 is still a good gift!

The Bible also says, "Every good gift comes from God above..." and the greatest gift in history is the cross and resurrection of Christ. This fact is my eternal life!