Works vs Doctrine

[Unveiled Artist]

People are not saved because they serve God. While we were separate from God/strangers to God/enemies to God, He sent the Christ to die on the cross, then resurrect.

The last time I gave a gift, and a person said, "What do I owe you?", I replied, "Nothing, I've paid for your gift."

So we both are saved now?

Salvation=faith/works

Everyone is christian then?

Split god in half?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I didn't say James isn't useful for interpretation, I said your interpretation is lacking, since James says dead faith cannot save, but living faith can save. However, James never said works save.

James puts faith and righteous works together all throughout the Book and the gospels back it and the OT is the foundation of it; and christ IS it.

But you have to put it together yourself not verbatm. It is there verbatim but instead of where periods got think about it cause you are splitting gods righreousness by how You interpret scripture not god.

It's easy to see you interpret it half way. Almost every other non modern age Christian regardless the denomination just doesn't do that. Youre separating righteous works from faith and that is wrong. But people have preferences.

I am Christian just as you since faith is just and action and I can think myself saves.

Thats what Im getting from you. Anyone think salvation. They split god in half and never carry Christ's cross.

But thats how the bible is written. By message and a unit not verbatum.

 

[BilliardsBall]

So we both are saved now?

Salvation=faith/works

Everyone is christian then?

Split god in half?

John 3:16 says "Anyone who personally trusts, does not perish."

 

[BilliardsBall]

James puts faith and righteous works together all throughout the Book and the gospels back it and the OT is the foundation of it; and christ IS it.

But you have to put it together yourself not verbatm. It is there verbatim but instead of where periods got think about it cause you are splitting gods righreousness by how You interpret scripture not god.

It's easy to see you interpret it half way. Almost every other non modern age Christian regardless the denomination just doesn't do that. Youre separating righteous works from faith and that is wrong. But people have preferences.

I am Christian just as you since faith is just and action and I can think myself saves.

Thats what Im getting from you. Anyone think salvation. They split god in half and never carry Christ's cross.

But thats how the bible is written. By message and a unit not verbatum.

Actually, almost 100% of Christian sects interpret the Bible as a free gift, personally received, via faith. The few that don't, and add works, include larger denominations.

Neither of us wants half a Bible. So why do you have half, accepting where it speaks of works, ignoring where it speaks of gifts? James 1 answers your question, by the way--whoever does the righteous works will be blessed. Someone can have salvation and a full Christian life, a most abundant life, filled with the power of God, or not. But still be saved--this is one reason Paul speaks of those who are saved by the skin of their teeth.

I think you need to consider James 1, also Hebrews 13, where grace is our heart and strength, not works, and most of all, I think you need to fellowship with a church with correct doctrine where the people move in God's power and where the works you crave are also performed--because the greatest church works are done usually by people in grace churches!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

John 3:16 says "Anyone who personally trusts, does not perish."

If we both trust god right at this very moment what makes my automatic trust in my head different than yours?

Please answer with commentary. I can' always read your points with isolated scripture. I'm guessing it instead.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Actually, almost 100% of Christian sects interpret the Bible as a free gift, personally received, via faith. The few that don't, and add works, include larger denominations.

Neither of us wants half a Bible. So why do you have half, accepting where it speaks of works, ignoring where it speaks of gifts? James 1 answers your question, by the way--whoever does the righteous works will be blessed. Someone can have salvation and a full Christian life, a most abundant life, filled with the power of God, or not. But still be saved--this is one reason Paul speaks of those who are saved by the skin of their teeth.

I think you need to consider James 1, also Hebrews 13, where grace is our heart and strength, not works, and most of all, I think you need to fellowship with a church with correct doctrine where the people move in God's power and where the works you crave are also performed--because the greatest church works are done usually by people in grace churches!

I don't think you're understanding my posts. It's as if you're trying to disprove what I say is not in the bible.

You must refer to the verses I quoted since you can't speak or draw conclusions on your own.

 

[BilliardsBall]

If we both trust god right at this very moment what makes my automatic trust in my head different than yours?

Please answer with commentary. I can' always read your points with isolated scripture. I'm guessing it instead.

Long ago (it only needs to be done once) I acknowledged I was unable to save myself, that trying my best would not make me fit to live in a utopia (where I'm morally perfect, never sin, never hurt another). Instead of trusting me to save me I said, "Lord Jesus, I trust you to save me, thanks for dying on the cross for me and rising!"

If you've done the same, you have saving faith. Over time, even if you resist God some, you will produce some lovely works.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I don't think you're understanding my posts. It's as if you're trying to disprove what I say is not in the bible.

You must refer to the verses I quoted since you can't speak or draw conclusions on your own.

I did refer to the verses you quoted. The Bible is inerrant and univocal. Since salvation is a free gift there can be no verses that say otherwise or the Bible "blows up". You can share any verse you like that you feel helps you understand, but you cannot use any verses to create false doctrines. For example, you'll make commentary that salvation is not separate from deeds, then quote some verses that do not say any such thing. Since you show unclear verses, I then point out clear verses that say specifically, "faith is not of deeds" (Eph 2:8-9, for example).

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Long ago (it only needs to be done once) I acknowledged I was unable to save myself, that trying my best would not make me fit to live in a utopia (where I'm morally perfect, never sin, never hurt another). Instead of trusting me to save me I said, "Lord Jesus, I trust you to save me, thanks for dying on the cross for me and rising!"

If you've done the same, you have saving faith. Over time, even if you resist God some, you will produce some lovely works.

That would mean I can do it right now and walla! Saved just by speaking the words?

I can go off and on salvation just by thinking?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I did refer to the verses you quoted. The Bible is inerrant and univocal. Since salvation is a free gift there can be no verses that say otherwise or the Bible "blows up". You can share any verse you like that you feel helps you understand, but you cannot use any verses to create false doctrines. For example, you'll make commentary that salvation is not separate from deeds, then quote some verses that do not say any such thing. Since you show unclear verses, I then point out clear verses that say specifically, "faith is not of deeds" (Eph 2:8-9, for example).

That would mean the verses I posted are false.

The verses I posted are as is. You didnt go through them eac (there were over ten) and defintely didnt address the comments I had on each of the verses.

I honestly feel you have a one-way thinking as if you cannot learn from anyone nor anything unless stated word for word in the correct order frm scirpture. Scripture (and any book, especially non-english books) just isnt like that.

You can read into it if you want.

I rather you take your time to go through them then tell me I am wrong in my intepretation. If I think in my head -I am saved- Id asume my interpertations will be like yours?

You have the correct interpretations that surpass god????

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Here we go. Take your time; I have all the time in the world in these next few months. I dont use interpretations from websites just biblical as-is ones since you guys have so many different views I dont know who is correct. You guys have so many websites trying to prove peoples interpretations about works are wrong, not god-like, from man, and all that mess. What in the world do you guys actually believe that does not contradict each other in scripure?

Salvation is by faith--Ephesians 2:8-9
Faith without works is dead--Hebrews 11:6
If you dont have righteous works by and through god how are you reward a gift and by what means do you please god by just thinking Lord. Lord?

What makes you different than someone else saying Lord. Lord?
Anyone can have faith in a snap (according to how you see it) but thats just not how faith is taught.

God works through you---> this is works
by these works, by god, you are saved.
(through your faith and service to god -as god is within you to do his sevice)

Basically, if you want to be saved, you let god work through you.

Through that work, he gives you the gift of grace because you didnt work for yourself but for god.

So, god was already in you because of your faith not out of obligation but your salvation needs to be lived out in order for faith to grow (like the analogy of the seeds Mathew 13) so that it is salvation not a wasted gift.

Anyone can be saved by your view just by saying I-trust-god. Not everyone wants to serve him like all prophets and jesus did.

Where in the bible does jesus separate his serve to god and his faith?

These are questions about people who have shown by example their faith, works, and salvation. If you dont live by example, what exactly does scripture mean to you beyond what you read word for word?


What is the biblical definition of works not based on denimination nor other people outside the bible? Just scripture.

I have to come back. but you arent adressing anything specific so it seems like your interpretation not gods.

 

[Oeste]

That would mean I can do it right now and walla! Saved just by speaking the words?

I can go off and on salvation just by thinking?

No...within the Christian context you are describing a work rather than a faith.

If we can save ourselves simply by thinking about Jesus then we have saved ourselves with our work (the process of thinking) and there is no need for Christ. Why would we need Christ in our lives if we can save ourselves by works?

We can think about Santa Claus, we can even believe that at one time Saint Nick existed, but that does not mean we have faith in his ability to scale chimneys or deliver toys to good boys and girls prior to December 25th.

Likewise we can think about Jesus, even believe he existed, but that does not mean we have faith in his ability to save or deliver on his promise of eternal salvation.

However your question brings up an interesting point which I'll address in my next post.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No...within the Christian context you are describing a work rather than a faith.

Yes. I was telling @BilliardsBall that faith and works arent seperated. Faith isnt thought/heart I-Trust-God, boom, Im saved (no sinners prayer). Its an act and god judges the fruits of that act by how seeds are grown and soil etc.

If we can save ourselves simply by thinking about Jesus then we have saved ourselves with our work (the process of thinking) and there is no need for Christ. Why would we need Christ in our lives if we can save ourselves by works?

Since works is righteous deeds/works with god being the motor, without works, what does your salvation mean beyond speaking the sinners prayer (saved by speech and thought)?

Without christ there are no works. The bible explains two types of works--righteous and unrighteous. Since you cant work yourself saved, the work you do is from motored-by christ. Once you do that work thats yuor faith (the fruits of it) and within that faith and works is your salvation.

Without works, you cant be saved. God has to work through you to be saved not shout from afar, yuo take the gift and put it on the shelf without using it. Its a combination of things within salvation.

You cannot work to be saved.

Because god works through you, the works you do is in and from god.

That is salvation.

Likewise we can think about Jesus, even believe he existed, but that does not mean we have faith in his ability to save or deliver on his promise of eternal salvation.

Yes. I was telling Billard the same thing.

However your question brings up an interesting point which I'll address in my next post.

Sure. I just have a non traditional view or most repeated view.

 

[Oeste]

I think Unveiled Artist brings up an interesting point.

For those who believe we are saved by works, why would you call Christ "Savior"? In works based theology, all Christ does is give you an opportunity to get saved, he doesn't reach out and actually save you. All the heavy lifting, all the grunt work, is left up to you. You work to save yourself.

In faith based Christian religions, Christ had done the salvation work so you are already saved. There is still work to do (like spreading this good news), but it is not your work, but your submission to Christ as Christ works through you. This submission to Christ is rewarded, but your salvation has already been gifted.

This reminds me of people floating in water after their boat capsized, desperately trying to keep their heads above water while the sharks circle, nibble and attempt to bite or pull them down.

Faith based

For those in the faith based boat, Jesus pulls up in a ship and calls. If you respond, Jesus knows the Spirit is working in you, so Jesus jumps in the water, lifts you up, and begins to walk on water. The sharks desperately attack but they cannot snatch you out of Jesus’ hand. You are brought aboard the boat. You have been freely saved by grace.

Even though you have been saved their are still others in the water. You can help others respond to Jesus' call and be rewarded or you can just sit on the boat and receive no reward. However at no time does Jesus consider throwing you overboard.

Works based

For those in the works based boat, Jesus pulls up with a ship, but this one has a screen and projector. For those with an eye or ear to listen, you can now receive detailed step by step instructions on how to swim or tread water. With this life saving instruction you are now able to swim toward Jesus' boat but he refuses to allow you on board because "the time is not yet". Instead, Jesus points to the screen, where you learn you'll be safe...as long as you don't get tired and keep your head above water.

You are never brought aboard until the appointed time but you now have an opportunity to save yourself. You also will be rewarded, and potentially saved, but this is a work you must undertake because Jesus had done all he can.

​

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No, it says believing, not saying you that you have the belief.

I asked billard how just having faith would save him. What is faith if not in part defined by action as well. So, to him, we can say -i trust god-religions and be saved. There is no action involved just belief. That's not faith in ration to scripture. It's beyond believing in things not seen. I can believe in anything and it will be true just because I have faith.

Since the Bible doesnt teach passive salvation, my point to Billard was works are important as long as it's done with god as the motor not self.

Also, a question I asked you in another thread. What do you mean that the bible doesn't talk about blessings and blessings are from an outside spirit or devil?

I never heard such a thing among any single christian I spoke with nor any church I attended. Can you expand on that?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In other words, salvation through works isn't the door you want to choose.

salvation through righteous works motored-by god, yes.

salvation through unrighteous works motored-by self, no.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Salvation through faith can still Jack you. This is another interesting thing.

You can get jacked either way.

That isn't really considered, as well.
If you have salvation through works, [we do have that in the bible, /then it jacks in that manner either way.

This isn't pretty

Jacked by god, though, over the word works??

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This is why, when 'faith' is used, instead of the word belief, something goes, wrong, doesn't it. Because the words don't really mean the same thing, when put to how they're used.

'Believe in Jesus, '

This isn't just faith that Jesus us correct, or even that the Bible is correct, it literally means, that one is trusting to Jesus, to what is beyond their understanding, or whatever.
There actually is an interesting thing to note, here.
Forget about the words they use for Jewish law, or whatever, and just consider the idea.
Once one takes on the law, they need to practice the whole thing.

Wait.

Read that again,

They need to practice the whole thing.
People aren't reading this properly, in other words.

Shrugs. I always thought christianity (and all other dogma doctrine faiths) have some action involved. Not newage.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Ummm. Yeah... why not? Not the word, the works

Jacked by god??

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Good question. Is it? If up you believe so, then it might change your perspective

Sorry. Had to go back. Reread you. I haev no opinion either way; but, its interesting that many dont understand the works involved in salvation. To me, its common sense but I guess the spirtuality throws off objective as-is nature of scripture.

But Im serious about the blessings question. That totally floored all of us but I cant remember which thread it was on since I dont talk much through threads.