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Works vs Doctrine

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
When you read the bible, you gotta think for yourself. Sometimes things are mentioned by example and support other lessons to which arent, by the nature of language, verbatum.

You can read into the bible how you want to define it. Many people do. Language doesnt work that way.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Sorry for the confusion. Salvation is not a reward:

Salvation is a gift (unearned).

Christians are judged for rewards (earned).

What are the importance of rewards and why is it earned if you were given a gift for free rather than being a child of christ through service?

What importance is judgement if your salvation isnt based on service just passive faith?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Basically, when you seperate works you are telling god I dont need you to do anything in (no holy spirit) me, I have faith alone, so I can handle this without you.


Of course I do. Ive already posted them.

They are not seperate. Just look at the examples of all the prophets, apostles, and jesus himself.

His disciple did not need to nor was required to carry christs cross and help him out. He wanted to.

Acts/righteous works

through-from-god not from man

is a default to ones faith in christ and thus his salvation.

If I post those verses again, will you go through each one and explain:

how god working through a person in his salvation is not in the bible?

In other words, prove god has nothing to do with a believers faith and righteous works that are justified by christ in his salvation rather than by man?


Basically, youre saying: I dont believe you god that you will work in me my salvation. Im much happier siting from afar and watch every other believer, and prophet, and christ serve you. Im much happy with my definition of faith not yours.


1) We cannot "handle this without you" as you wrote, therefore, the cross of Christ.

2) I asked what scripture you had that says, "When you show god you love him by your service to him like christ you are given grace". There are no scriptures that say that, at all. There are scriptures which instead say grace is unmerited, undeserved, not worked for, a free gift...
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
What are the importance of rewards and why is it earned if you were given a gift for free rather than being a child of christ through service?

What importance is judgement if your salvation isnt based on service just passive faith?

Rewards are because God is always fair, Christians who worked hard receive more reward.

Salvation isn't based on passive faith, it's based on faith. The Bible never says, "Trusting God is lazy," it says, "Trusting God is the sole salvation".

Think of deeds and salvation like fellowship vs. relationship. A husband and wife who quarrel need to repair fellowship, but they remain married, relationship. A person who trusts Jesus for salvation can do things to enhance or hurt his or her fellowship with the Lord, but the marriage relationship (salvation) remains.

I'd like to remind you that seeing this doctrine differently says that Jesus lies! John 3:16 says, "Anyone who trusts Jesus can never perish." That means that someone who places their trust in Jesus for salvation cannot enter Hell.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
1) We cannot "handle this without you" as you wrote, therefore, the cross of Christ.

2) I asked what scripture you had that says, "When you show god you love him by your service to him like christ you are given grace". There are no scriptures that say that, at all. There are scriptures which instead say grace is unmerited, undeserved, not worked for, a free gift...

Do you believe you can be like christ in what you do and how you act?

Do you need to read that you follow christ as an example in order to do so?

I can scripures, of coure a bit later, but the point is can you do this on your own, think on your own, without thinking because you arent checking every other sentence in the bible would faulter in your interpretations even if god spoke to you directly?

When does looking at the bible for accuracy end and living for christ and listening to god begins???
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Rewards are because God is always fair, Christians who worked hard receive more reward.

I will come back to the rest.

Why do christians work hard for rewards when it doesnt matter in their salvation?

What is the point of working for rewards when you feel you get everything for free (that you dont need to lift a finger just think "I believe. I have faith." over and over to be saved?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
1) We cannot "handle this without you" as you w

I dont know what youre referring to.

2) I asked what scripture you had that says, "When you show god you love him by your service to him like christ you are given grace". There are no scriptures that say that, at all. There are scriptures which instead say grace is unmerited, undeserved, not worked for, a free gift...

I cant find where I said that.

Instead, I said faith and works go together.

Why would you receive grace and erward without fait/righteous works (aka why would you receive grace without letting god work through you as salvation)?

If god loves you, how does he? By what standards does he asks you to do and more important by what standards to you put on yourself to where service to god is a must without god requiring you to do so?

Take out: required. It does not exist in anything I am saying.

If your lifestyle does not reflect nor part of your salvation, by what means does god give you any gift that he could give me just for saying: Lord. Lord?

What exactly is faith that differiantes you from me when we both say Lord Lord?
James is a huge chapter; and, since I am not christian, I cant throw away one book over another to make a point; they work as a unit.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
@BilliardsBall

Another thing came across my head replying to another thread:

Why would you expect to get a prize for a race you never competed?

I read about the difference between journey and goal

Journey is what you live-the process of it
Goal is what you live for-the result of it

Some people put more emphasis on the journey (I live salvation because god works through me; I live grace. I live faith).

While others focus on destination (I have faith but I wont live it into later.)

Journey has more fulfillment. Its what you experience now: faith/grace/god. These things are a part of salvation. So, in a journey god lives in you to move you unto salvation.

Your LIFE is a gift; is salvation, rather than it being on a silver platter.

The goal takes a heck of a lot of faith. I personally dont see use of faith that you dont live in salvation to use it.

Also, the finishline means death not salvation.

Food for thought if you read the whole thing actively.
 
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BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Do you believe you can be like christ in what you do and how you act?

Do you need to read that you follow christ as an example in order to do so?

I can scripures, of coure a bit later, but the point is can you do this on your own, think on your own, without thinking because you arent checking every other sentence in the bible would faulter in your interpretations even if god spoke to you directly?

When does looking at the bible for accuracy end and living for christ and listening to god begins???

A Christian can behave in a Christlike manner at times. At other times, they sin, and if they say they never sin, they lie (1 John 1). Transformation is needed, this is the power of trusting Jesus.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I will come back to the rest.

Why do christians work hard for rewards when it doesnt matter in their salvation?

What is the point of working for rewards when you feel you get everything for free (that you dont need to lift a finger just think "I believe. I have faith." over and over to be saved?

No one is saved by thinking about it or repeating it. They are saved because it was a very expensive gift. The gift was paid via the horrible cross.

I go out of my way to evangelize and etc. because I appreciate the gift. It sounds like you want people to work hard for Jesus:

1) To be saved

2) Because they can't be sure they're saved

3) Because the cross wasn't enough and we have to help Jesus save us
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I dont know what youre referring to.



I cant find where I said that.

Instead, I said faith and works go together.

Why would you receive grace and erward without fait/righteous works (aka why would you receive grace without letting god work through you as salvation)?

If god loves you, how does he? By what standards does he asks you to do and more important by what standards to you put on yourself to where service to god is a must without god requiring you to do so?

Take out: required. It does not exist in anything I am saying.

If your lifestyle does not reflect nor part of your salvation, by what means does god give you any gift that he could give me just for saying: Lord. Lord?

What exactly is faith that differiantes you from me when we both say Lord Lord?
James is a huge chapter; and, since I am not christian, I cant throw away one book over another to make a point; they work as a unit.

I never asked you to discard James, but I do challenge your interpretation of it. Works witness our faith to others, but they do not save us.

We may be differentiated by my faith in that I believe my faith in Jesus brought me salvation and you believe faith puts one on a road where they work to earn eternal life. How many works can I do in a finite life to earn eternal life?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
@BilliardsBall

Another thing came across my head replying to another thread:

Why would you expect to get a prize for a race you never competed?

I read about the difference between journey and goal

Journey is what you live-the process of it
Goal is what you live for-the result of it

Some people put more emphasis on the journey (I live salvation because god works through me; I live grace. I live faith).

While others focus on destination (I have faith but I wont live it into later.)

Journey has more fulfillment. Its what you experience now: faith/grace/god. These things are a part of salvation. So, in a journey god lives in you to move you unto salvation.

Your LIFE is a gift; is salvation, rather than it being on a silver platter.

The goal takes a heck of a lot of faith. I personally dont see use of faith that you dont live in salvation to use it.

Also, the finishline means death not salvation.

Food for thought if you read the whole thing actively.

Ah, but zero Bible verses say, "Salvation is a journey, a process." There are numerous verses that say, "it's a gift, receive this gift today, now."
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Thats not seperated from salvation and salvation lifestyle. Unless christ example, deed, and message isn't important they work together.
A Christian can behave in a Christlike manner at times. At other times, they sin, and if they say they never sin, they lie (1 John 1). Transformation is needed, this is the power of trusting Jesus.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
No one is saved by thinking about it or repeating it. They are saved because it was a very expensive gift. The gift was paid via the horrible cross.

I go out of my way to evangelize and etc. because I appreciate the gift. It sounds like you want people to work hard for Jesus:

1) To be saved

2) Because they can't be sure they're saved

3) Because the cross wasn't enough and we have to help Jesus save us

If we both called put Lord Lord,

Whats the difference between my faith and yours when I dont worship Christ nor is the Bible a personal asset in my life.

But if I sat around and had faith, what does that mean to god without serving him?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Yo
I never asked you to discard James, but I do challenge your interpretation of it. Works witness our faith to others, but they do not save us.

We may be differentiated by my faith in that I believe my faith in Jesus brought me salvation and you believe faith puts one on a road where they work to earn eternal life. How many works can I do in a finite life to earn eternal life?
You said James isn't useful in interpreting deeds and faith.


Righteous deeds is part of faith in god
You are tearing god apart without both.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
You have to think for yourself and draw conclusions based on what god tells you directly.

Salvation is a lifestyle.

Why would god give you a gift when you feel that's enough and no need to use what he gave (usage and gift are one)



Ah, but zero Bible verses say, "Salvation is a journey, a process." There are numerous verses that say, "it's a gift, receive this gift today, now."

Basically, you're wasting a gift by doing things on Your Own (charity etc), calling out lord, and thinking the gift is fine wrapped all because he gave it.

When you open the gift (of salvation) then you please god that he knows you accept and love the gift he gave.

Many people walk around with gods gift but don't open it because they figure they can do things for god without it. That's unrighteous deeds; thinking what You Do is seperate from what Open the gift, use salvation, of god who works through you, that's righteousness. If only you open and used the gift.

You will be looking scripture forever rather than open the gift already in your hands with or without the written physical book.
 
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BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
If we both called put Lord Lord,

Whats the difference between my faith and yours when I dont worship Christ nor is the Bible a personal asset in my life.

But if I sat around and had faith, what does that mean to god without serving him?

People are not saved because they serve God. While we were separate from God/strangers to God/enemies to God, He sent the Christ to die on the cross, then resurrect.

The last time I gave a gift, and a person said, "What do I owe you?", I replied, "Nothing, I've paid for your gift."
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Yo

You said James isn't useful in interpreting deeds and faith.


Righteous deeds is part of faith in god
You are tearing god apart without both.

I didn't say James isn't useful for interpretation, I said your interpretation is lacking, since James says dead faith cannot save, but living faith can save. However, James never said works save.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
You have to think for yourself and draw conclusions based on what god tells you directly.

Salvation is a lifestyle.

Why would god give you a gift when you feel that's enough and no need to use what he gave (usage and gift are one)





Basically, you're wasting a gift by doing things on Your Own (charity etc), calling out lord, and thinking the gift is fine wrapped all because he gave it.

When you open the gift (of salvation) then you please god that he knows you accept and love the gift he gave.

Many people walk around with gods gift but don't open it because they figure they can do things for god without it. That's unrighteous deeds; thinking what You Do is seperate from what Open the gift, use salvation, of god who works through you, that's righteousness. If only you open and used the gift.

You will be looking scripture forever rather than open the gift already in your hands with or without the written physical book.

Respectfully, this is wrong, where you wrote: "You have to think for yourself and draw conclusions based on what god tells you directly."

If God Himself tells you something directly, you still have to check against the Bible, to see if what you think you heard was accurate. Remember where we're warned that even a heavenly angel is to be anathema to us if they offer a different doctrine?

The voice of Jesus when heard by an individual is hard, sometimes, to authenticate. The scripture is proven. Jesus said in the scripture anyone who trusts Him has eternal life. Do not add to what He told us, please.
 
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