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Works vs Doctrine

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Faith isn't works. The statement doesn't even make sense, there is probably something wrong with the translation.

Faith is something, by itself. It cant be something else, 'without something'.

Its nonsense.

Faith without works is dead, in English, treats both subjects-faith and works-in relationship (without) to each other. So, there is a separation; they mean different things. Without one, the other is invalid.

Faith isnt works; (righteous works) are a part of faith.

I am not getting your objections???
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Right, what you arent understanding is that faith itself is a substance. It doesnt need, or require, anything else. Stick to the real Sages, they know.

'Works', is a joke, when mixed with faith. That is how i, for example, would steer someone wrong. That is what i would tell them, [if i worshipped satan

I dont see the connection to what Im saying. It sounds like youre disagreeing with what you think I said.

Gotta quote me so I understand what youre talking about.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Yes, Im disagreeing, because the 'works', is going to be how, youre going to mess up your faith, which should be the guide to the works, partly. But they are actually sort of separate.

Good pizza[faith
Works[jar of garlic, garlic is good, right?

But youre not a chef, its a joke, youre going to ruin the pizza.

Thats all im going to say about this.

You are confusing me. What are you specifically disagreeing with?

If you're not up for clarifying your talk what's the use of dialogue. Dialogue is a lot more than agreeing to a subject and splitting when you disagree.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The idea that is being presented, isnt that faith and works, are two different things. What the idea is, is that it combines them, necessarily. Note, works affects the faith, in your concept. Get it? So you combine them, conceptually. Hence the way it doesnt work.

Works and faith are interrelated not the same. Two very different statements.

When you have god's righteous works working through you, you cultivate faith. When you have faith, you are letting god's righteous works work through you. Without one, the other is invalid.

They work together. Can you imagine if you dont have faith, what would god's work mean; conversely, without letting god work through you, whats the use of faith. (@BilliardsBall quick note: when you dont have faith, salvation isnt present; works mean nothing. When you have faith without letting god work through you to culivated it, no salvation; faith means nothing. Need both. -end quick note)

Thats how I read scripture. They go hand in hand.

Are you saying they are interchangable?

I know you said they arent separate nor the same; so, what are you disagreeing with?
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
And the definition of works varies.

The example of "works" with respect to Jame's position is fairly well laid out. (James 2: 19-26) His position pertaining to "faith" is fairly well laid out (James 2:19). The problem with most "Christians", is they have 3 gods, and no works required by way of the false prophet Paul, their leader and teacher.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I don't think so, because I wouldnt say, that faith has to be combined with anything. I believe theres something wrong with the verse, in other words.

Its not just that verse. The bible is faith and works together. Faith in god and works from god; nothing can exist without god.

From obedience in the OT to disciples serving christ and his father, christ obeying his father, and apostles obeying christ. Rightous works are all through the bible and none of the righteous works can be cultivated without faith.

Its in the gospels. Just James is more blunt about it. I think Titus said something similar. I dont take things as written since the bible is meant to be lived not read. We understand the bible through how we live not what we read. At least that is how I practiced. I value books a lot but the bible didnt help me understand life. Though, it is a easy message and concept to get. We all (believers) just need to think for ourselves and learn from god directly to get it.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
That verse cancels itself out, because one could just have works. Its like, the works have value, by themselves, but the verse makes some unnecessary combination.

What it does is say faith is a foundation of works. Say you have a flower. Faith would be the seed. Works will be god watering the flower. The seed growing into the flower is the holy spirit. With whom the flower is owned is by god. And depending on the soil tells god your maturity in faith (gospels).

Just, to me, I dont divide these things. Its like a sentence. The nouns, adjectives, and verbs make one sentence. So we read them in one fluid combination rather than choppy word for word. They are iner-related but still seperate.

Its more preference than right or wrong.
 
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kjw47

Well-Known Member
@kjw47:

Since you are works-based, can you answer my questions?:

]#1: Faith Based

You shout, "Jesus, save me!". Jesus walks on the water towards you. He tells you to relax and gently lifts you up. Neither the rip, tide, water, your weight, or distance from shore has any affect on him as he escorts you to shore and safety. He does the same for everyone else calling his name.

#2: Works Based

You shout, "Jesus, give me an opportunity!" Instantly Jesus points your attention to the cliff wall where a video is projected giving step by step instructions on how to swim. For others, floating books on water safety appear in the water, and for some, there are even buoys or rafts. The tide is strong so you can never make it to shore safely, but the video you're watching assures you that as long as you follow the instructions diligently, you'll be able to keep your head above water.

And it's true! As long as you follow instructions your head isn't pulled under nor do you drift out to sea. Others find that as long as they read their books, tread water, or oar against the current they too are able to keep their head above and their place in the water. This is good. The bad thing is that as soon as they relax, follow an instruction incorrectly, or let their guard down they drift further out to sea.

QUESTIONS
  1. Who group can best describe Christ their Savior? #1 or #2?
  2. Who's faith is rewarded to the glory of God? Who's to the glory of themselves?
  3. Which group showed more faith in Jesus?
These questions are not just for you but for anyone who believes we are saved by our own works rather than through the grace or free gift of God.

Bonus Questions

If our salvation is "works-based":


1. Can Christians honestly claim Christ their Savior if in fact, he hasn't quite saved them yet?
2. Would it be better to call Christ our half-savior, since we're required to perform the other half ourselves?
3. Where can we find "salvation without works is dead?"*
4. Wouldn't it have been better if Jesus arrived and said "Save yourselves!" rather than be declared our Savior?
5. How long do our works, work? In other words, if I help a lady across the street, am I now saved if I die a year from now, or do I have to keep walking old ladies across the street? Am I less saved than someone working full time in a homeless shelter?
6. What if I give 10% of my yearly earning to the poor? Am I saved for the following year, only 10% of the next year, or am I only saved during the moment of donation? If I'm not saved during any of these, what is the point of the work?
7. What if I lie to my boss, cheat at tax time, or refuse to help my brother clean his garage? Does this shave off any salvation points I've earned? Can I take an indulgence, perhaps engage in some fornication, if I balance it off with some missionary work?
8. How do you explain the thief's salvation? Did he get a special work bonus none of us are privy to? Perhaps Christ was rewarding the thief, seeing him as the original Robin Hood, stealing from the rich but giving to the poor?​

*Each Christian is assigned work to show their faith in God. It is our public display to the world. Our works were never intended as a mechanism toward salvation, but as a display of faith.That is why James says "Works without faith is dead". Your salvation is not your works. Your salvation is Christ. There is no "Salvation without works is dead" in our bibles because Christ is alive, and he will stay that way, whether you, me or anyone else refuses to "work" or not.







salvation by obeying every utterance from God--That is why Jesus said--FEW will find the road. Few bothered taking the time to learn every utterance. Its they who failed God, not the other way.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
If your interpretation of this were true, then everyone is saved after they die, having paid the "full wages of sin", just like the thief.


They will be resurrected in Gods kingdom on earth to judgement.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
salvation by obeying every utterance from God--That is why Jesus said--FEW will find the road. Few bothered taking the time to learn every utterance. Its they who failed God, not the other way.

The false prophet Paul has nailed God's words to the cross, and his friend, the author Hebrews, has made them "obsolete". (Hebrews 8:13)
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Eph. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

I believe that shows the reality of what those other verses are saying.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I think James sums it up nicely at James 2:26 B .... so faith without works is dead.

If No works were involved then Jesus would Not have given the instruction to tell the world about the good news of God's kingdom government of Daniel 2:44 as he mentioned at Matthew 24:14 and Acts of the Apostles 1:8 to carry his message on a grand international scale as it is being done today.

I believe works are involved but not for salvation.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
If your interpretation of this were true, then everyone is saved after they die, having paid the "full wages of sin", just like the thief

They will be resurrected in Gods kingdom on earth to judgement.

Nah.

Jesus said he would see the thief in paradise, not before his judgment throne.

You have no explanation for the thief. Read Luke 23:43 and John 5:24 again.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
The false prophet Paul has nailed God's words to the cross, and his friend, the author Hebrews, has made them "obsolete". (Hebrews 8:13)


Paul is harmony with Jesus. YOU should learn what he actually taught. Its error filled trinity translation that are not in harmony.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Nah.

Jesus said he would see the thief in paradise, not before his judgment throne.

You have no explanation for the thief. Read Luke 23:43 and John 5:24 again.


Truly i tell you, today you will be with me in paradise. = comma error placement.

Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise = correct

The bible is 100% clear. Jesus was in Hades( grave) for 3 days, he could not be in paradise the first day. And Paradise will be on earth. Earth will be transformed into an Eden( paradise)during the thousand year reign of Jesus. The great multitude actually got these promises--Matthew 5:5, Psalm 37:9-11,29
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Nah.

Jesus said he would see the thief in paradise, not before his judgment throne.

You have no explanation for the thief. Read Luke 23:43 and John 5:24 again.

You quote the unknown author of Luke, supposedly an associate of the false prophet Paul. Was Yeshua "today", to be in "Paradise", or in the belly of the whale for 3 days and 3 nights? As for John 5:24, "those that hear" would be the "few" (Mt 7:13)
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
salvation by obeying every utterance from God--That is why Jesus said--FEW will find the road. Few bothered taking the time to learn every utterance. Its they who failed God, not the other way.

So your answer is "No, I cannot answer your questions".

I didn't think you could because you won't find them at the bottom of a Watchtower.

Thanks anyways @kjw47!
 
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