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Featured Without the Shedding of Blood There is No Forgiveness of ...

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by ZenMonkey, Nov 2, 2019.

  1. ZenMonkey

    ZenMonkey St. James VII

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    That, at face value, appears to be incredibly "vengeful". It's almost as if it's saying ... I'm so angry I couldn't forgive you in a million lifetimes for what you did, so you're gonna shed some blood for what you done. It's a frightful thing to be delivered into the hands of an angry god. I wonder, I mean I truly wonder if that's how it is.

    I think about my child and just the thought of someone doing harm to him enrages me to the point of near madness, then I think about what happened to Jesus and how his mother must have felt. A frightful thing indeed. Then I also see a more peaceful side to it. A monthly cycle once viewed to be a curse that only happens to woman. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. And some wonder why I call them god.
     
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  2. ZenMonkey

    ZenMonkey St. James VII

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    Gotta feed the sheep Pete ... I guess Cain fed them a time or two too, or maybe always. Cain and grain, the sheep and Pete, and a rock on which to build with you know who as a cornerstone too.
     
  3. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    What the hell does menstruation have to do with shedding of blood or forgiveness?

    Blood to appease the gods is very primitive.
     
  4. ZenMonkey

    ZenMonkey St. James VII

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    Woman, conception, wombs, and formation of life, on to birth and nurture, making houses homes, comfort, love, joy, peace ... God knows patience, gentleness, kindness, and beauty beyond compare. That's what shedding of blood has to do with menstruation ... Everything!
     
  5. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    There are many types of offerings explicitly mentioned (grain, wave, peace... ) which point to the ultimate sacrifice which is Jesus the lamb of God.

    I would emphasize plain things over other
     
    #5 whirlingmerc, Nov 2, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2019
  6. ZenMonkey

    ZenMonkey St. James VII

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    Of course ... Sacrificial atonement theory and throwing a child of god under a bus to be punished for what you did. I'm sure you can see where I have a problem with that. I mean, death comes to all right? I mean, if you save your own life by throwing gods child under a bus as a sacrificial atonement, what about friendship, loyalty, love, dedication, and losing your life for a certain someones name?

    I once went up to a guy and asked a few questions. It went something like this: Do you have a personal relationship with the Lord? Have you accepted his sacrifice as an atonement for your sins? Typically the answer is umm ... yes. I followed by suggesting this. A gun, and a choice ... You or your child, who at this point represents the one you so eagerly suffer to pay for your sins. I didn't do that, but i made the point.

    I reckon God would have been pissed, being all we we're required to do is believe in him, and he said ... no greater love has a man than this that he lay his life down for his friends, that those who save their own lives will lose them, and those who lose their lives for his namesake ... the same will save them. Pretend you're God and your child's life is on the line. If you have no children, then it's your life on the line.

    Sacrificial atonement theory ... How does it even remotely make sense and how can it even remotely be considered holy or right or rather righteous. You love GOD so much and GOD'S child sooo much that you would be ok with GODS child being punished for your sins to save your own life.
     
  7. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    So when women have their period, they receive the forgiveness of sins? What about when I scratch myself and it bleeds? Does that count in God's eyes as an adequate amount of blood in order for his forgiveness-apparatus to activate and cleanse me of my wrongdoings?

    Perhaps we could synthesize this forgiveness process by regular visits to the blood bank to donate blood? The more you give, the more you're forgiven by God?
     
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  8. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    A spotless lamb is required for sacrifice and a person is not spotless ... except for Jesus the spotless lamb

    Difficulties in childbirth such as mensuration would apply to effects of the fall, maybe thats a better connection
     
  9. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    If we are going to be literal about all this, did Jesus have wool?
     
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  10. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Horse manure. God doesn't eat nor is he fed. Its primitive and pagan and has NOTHING to do with motherhood or apple pie.
     
  11. ZenMonkey

    ZenMonkey St. James VII

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    Lets look at it like this. Without woman there is no forgiveness of, and again, if you're willing to spill innocent blood to save your own life, or rather if you think Jesus must suffer and die so you can be "saved" and forgiven, then there's a problem with your theology. Eggs, and conception, and out with the old in with the new, formation of life, birth of life, the nuturing of life, caring for life as opposed to sacrificing anothers life to save your own life is what's on the docket. Honestly, woman have been the victims of such brutality, so much so that Jeus' mother watched her son suffer, die, then others like her watched others boast in that type of sacrifice to save their own lives from death, which is ... our wage for our sins.
     
  12. ZenMonkey

    ZenMonkey St. James VII

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    Huh? But yet we die, we live, we go through hardships, we have fun, we find pleasure, we hurt, we umm ... well, we live then we die ... Isn't that the way life already is? Why is it necessary for Jesus to suffer to save anyone? God .... Didn't the bible state this: Let us make them in our image. Male and female let us make them.
     
  13. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    No not literal, but John the Baptist said Jesus was 'the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world'

    An ultimate passover lamb for the world
     
  14. ZenMonkey

    ZenMonkey St. James VII

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    You know, I've heard it said that it's better to have loved than to have never loved at all. I've also heard it said that if you love someone, let them go. If they return to you, they're yours. If they don't, they never were. ... and here is where the rubber meets the pavement: No one belongs to any one, not even a little. Not in marriage, not in parenting, not in anything. People are not property to be owned. People are people who feel and bleed like everyone else.

    I started this thread to make a point ... bought with a price point. At what price? Sometimes we gotta let go of the old and let the new in. I'll call this a spirit connection, pure, un-defiled, and true. There are things in life that we don't like, things we disagree with, things that make us hurt inside, and the silver lining is this: Life is a gift, and no matter where we've been or what we've done, if you're reading this then you have life, and with that life, every single moment of is an opportunity to make it the best life possible.

    Forgiveness ... Sometimes the hardest thing in life is forgiving ourselves. If God didn't want us to at least have an opportunity to be amazingly and abundantly happy, we wouldn't be here today. Remember: It's God's good pleasure to give us the kingdom or rather an amazingly abundant life full of love, joy, peace, faithfulness, gentleness, and ... SELF control.
     
  15. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Forgiveness is brought in in the strongest sense to the alienated people by Jesus

    Psalms book 4: An invitation to join the global chorus for the shephe…
     
  16. ZenMonkey

    ZenMonkey St. James VII

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    Yeah ... I found Jesus to be pretty cool too. The way he lived, what he was about, the things he taught, his character, his no nonsense approach, his dedication, and well ... almost everything about him. I hate that he had to endure so much for his friends ... you know, the 12 who stood with him throughout, except for when the poo hit the fan and they were on the hit list too. He taught us not to fear, but then after what he endured how could they not? He taught them it was desired that we live abundantly, but then they too had a target on them. He taught us to be truthful, and then was killed and endured great suffering because he was umm ... so truthful. They made fun of him, put him out in front of all to humiliate and punish and kill him. Even after the fact .... of all that occurred ... his testimony and ministry endures, even as he endured that treatment.

    If I were GOD I'd be mad as a bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep ... and I'm not even sure if my vengeance would be so swift but rather at least as enduring as the time Jesus has been expected to suffer and keep doing what some expect of him to do, but then ... I'm not a holy or sinless entity. I'm human and well ... I don't know if wrath is a strong enough term. You know, after sending his child into the world to save the world through his teachings, his character, his approach, his dedication, and the life he lead, which we were expected to follow. A servant is no greater than their master, yet he called them friends.

    No greater love, which is another reason it baffles me how some expect him to pay and suffer and die to save them from death, which is to be honest, a wage well earned by living. It's not a bad thing to die, I think the greatest of all shames, even greater than the shame of scapegoating another is to never live at all ... after being given an opportunity to live life abundantly. Why? Because GOD so loved the world that HE gave his only begotten son that whosoever would believe in him should not perish but have everlasting life .... Everlasting. Now that's a term to be understood ... is it a life without end? If so, what type of life can be expected, given the situation at hand?

    I love Jesus. I love God and I love people of all creeds and colors, and I also love myself enough to understand that I too have been wonderfully made in Gods image, knowing what I enjoy and what I don't, knowing what I find pleasure in and what I don't, knowing what it takes to keep love living, both inside myself and in this world. I stand when I need to for him the way I need to for him and I make no apology for doing so. Why? Because like God, and like Jesus, I want people happy and abundantly so, so I speak truthfully and in a manner any sensible person can understand and relate to.

    Living Out Loud

    The bold don’t live forever,
    but the cautious never live at all.
    Try not to be in the latter,
    always too scared you’ll fall.

    Never look back on life
    with dismay in your eyes,
    and never let the lows
    override the slightest highs.

    The wars you must fight,
    fight them with pride,
    and never be something
    you feel you must hide.

    You gotta learn how to live
    because you can’t get it back.
    Experience each moment
    as if it’s fading to black.

    Live with great passion.
    Sometimes slow, sometimes fast,
    like there’s no tomorrow,
    because today never lasts.

    It will pass you by
    like a quick, fleeting breath.
    If you live without heart
    you’re just existing till death.

    To never live at all
    is the worst of all shame.
    Take this life by the horns
    and ride your best game.

    It’s another “Tree of life”
    and this advice I will give...
    Don’t stay stuck on the bench.
    Find some courage and live.
     
  17. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    Jesus said, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice".
     
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  18. ZenMonkey

    ZenMonkey St. James VII

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    I've made more than just a few dumb choices and mistakes in my life. At one time I was so ashamed of ME that I couldn't for the life of me forgive me for being me. I learned to forgive, and when I say forgive, I mean forgive me for a life, that as I look back was wasted, yet not wasted at the same time. I'd suggest the same is true for most everyone if not everyone. It's not my job to forgive anyone when a constant attack is on those I care most about in life, and since I do love Jesus and God and my family, I do what I do the way I do it. Forgiveness ... In the end, if you can't forgive yourself, then you will never know the benefits of, and until a person is in position TO forgive themselves, it would be my guess that they never will, nor will they ever be able to. I guess a change must first take place for that to take place ya know?
     
  19. leov

    leov Well-Known Member

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    According to the Law but not according to the spirit. The law is written for the old type of consciousness (Cain type) to be an archetype or example, new consciousness that moves toward more respect of each other
    and ultimately to Christ type does require blood sacrifice - it is useless as ignorance (of bicameral mind) is gone.
     
  20. ZenMonkey

    ZenMonkey St. James VII

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    In the end I would suggest that we all bleed, if only a little, then we all die too, but as for a substitution atonement, a you must so I don't have to, a scapegoat kind of mindset, it does not umm ... compute to any substantial degree with me, but ... I certainly understand rage and wrath, but ... I try, lord knows I try to umm ... maintain my gentle demeanor. I try but it gets tremendously difficult to do so ... you know ... maintain my gentle demeanor. It would be different, but at the moment it isn't different, so ... I hold what I can inside myself and try to think about people and places and things I find comfort and pleasure and satisfaction in. The things in life I find appealing and pleasant.
     
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