Will there be freewill in the afterlife?

[arthra]

For religions that put emphasis on this life being a test because we have freewill and can make bad/wrong decisions, will people have freewill in the afterlife? If freewill makes people so unpredictable that we need to be tested in the first place, what will keep them from making bad/wrong decisions in the afterlife? Will our freewill be removed? Will freewill be limited in some fashion so transgressions can't be made? If our freewill will be removed or limited later, what purpose is there in testing us at all?

Baha'is believe there can be progress in the spiritual worlds after our passing...

Truthfulness is the foundation of all the virtues of the world of humanity. Without truthfulness, progress and success in all of the worlds of God are impossible for a soul. When this holy attribute is established in man, all the divine qualities will also become realized.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith -, p. 384)



Much depends on God's mercy but also we can intercede for others who have passed on and they can intercede for us:

"...we can be assured that the true and faithful believer will be in a much better position to intercede for his ancestors, and aid in their development than if he were not spiritually enlightened."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, December 12, 1942)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 228)

"The wealth of the other world is nearness to God. Consequently it is certain that those who are near the Divine Court are allowed to intercede, and this intercession is approved by God. But intercession in the other world is not like intercession in this world: it is another thing, another reality, which cannot be expressed in words."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith -, p. 329)

 

[YmirGF]

Much depends on God's mercy but also we can intercede for others who have passed on and they can intercede for us:

"...we can be assured that the true and faithful believer will be in a much better position to intercede for his ancestors, and aid in their development than if he were not spiritually enlightened."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, December 12, 1942)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 228)

"The wealth of the other world is nearness to God. Consequently it is certain that those who are near the Divine Court are allowed to intercede, and this intercession is approved by God. But intercession in the other world is not like intercession in this world: it is another thing, another reality, which cannot be expressed in words."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith -, p. 329)

This suggests that your version of god is not in full control or all-knowing. An all-knowing being would not require anyone to intercede on another's behalf as it would be fully aware of all relevant data. Can you give an example where such an intercession would be necessary?

 

[OurCreed]

If we end up in a world were evil does not and cannot exist, why would the concept of evil be important, let alone make us robots?



You just said that god can make a world where evil doesn't exist but everything will be good by nature. So apparently good can exist without evil. Our freewill will be limited to only good choices. So you are saying freewill will exist in the afterlife but be limited.

If we end up in a world were evil does not and cannot exist, why would the concept of evil be important, let alone make us robots?

If evil doesn't exist, then neither does good. You need to understand this basic concept. It's like eating food that tastes great.

If you ate some candy and you said, "Yum, it's really good!" The only reason you can feel that sensation of goodness is because your brain also recognized bad flavors. The very fact you can taste good candy is proof of the fact that there is also candy that tastes bad. Let's say there was no such thing as any bad tasting candy. If that was true, then neither would good tasting candy exist. Why? As I said, the very fact you tasted good candy is evidence for the fact that there is also candy that doesn't taste good at all. You won't be able to feel goodness without having any badness.

Same thing goes with good and evil. Humans won't be able to do good without evil existing. So if there is neither good nor evil, then we are robots, we don't have free will.

You just said that god can make a world where evil doesn't exist but everything will be good by nature. So apparently good can exist without evil. Our freewill will be limited to only good choices. So you are saying freewill will exist in the afterlife but be limited.

Evil will exist, but nobody will be able to do it, or want to do it. The concepts will still be there. The Qur'an makes it clear that people in heaven will look down onto those who are in hell, so that means the inmates of heaven will be able to recognize what is evil, and they will be thankful that they are not in hell. Good and evil is basically how close one is to God.

What is good is what is near to God, and what is evil is what is far away from God. Since heaven is a place where everyone is naturally close to God, then nothing is evil there. The concept of being "far away from God" is still there, but nobody is far away from God (except those in hell), so the inmates of heaven won't feel any evil at all.

 

[Thanda]

For religions that put emphasis on this life being a test because we have freewill and can make bad/wrong decisions, will people have freewill in the afterlife? If freewill makes people so unpredictable that we need to be tested in the first place, what will keep them from making bad/wrong decisions in the afterlife? Will our freewill be removed? Will freewill be limited in some fashion so transgressions can't be made? If our freewill will be removed or limited later, what purpose is there in testing us at all?

The main principle in Christianity is that even if we wanted to be completely good we couldn't without God's help - hence the principle of Grace. The idea is therefore that those who desire and work all their lives will receive, as gift from God, a cleansing of their souls and a change of heart. They will be born again becoming a new person whose desires and passions are no longer dictated by their natural passions but by the Spirit of God. So those who enter heaven, having gone through this process, can no longer sin since sin requires an evil desire to exist.

 

[OurCreed]

This is ridiculous.

It's just an analogical example. You're still avoiding the main issue.

 

[OurCreed]

My dentist is evil?

It's just an example. You're still missing the main point though.

 

[OurCreed]

So in the next life I have free will. So if I want to, in the next life I can kick someone in the shin. Futhermore, kicking someone in the shin in the next life will technically be "good."

This afterlife is going to some strange place.

You have free will right now here on earth. Yet you can't jump off a mountain and start flying. You're still limited. That doesn't mean you don't have free will, that just means you don't have full abilities. So your argument doesn't work.

Second, good and evil is essentially defined by our distance towards God. Good is nearness to God whereas evil is going away from Him. Heaven is a place where everyone is naturally placed near God, so nobody will be able to do evil, as a matter of fact, the thought of it wouldn't even cross our minds.

So your statements are simply based off of ignorance of these principle matters.

 

[OurCreed]

That train of thought is terrifying to me. That a great flood drowned children in the arms of their mothers; that the firstborn of every household was supposedly slaughtered by angels in Egypt; that enslaving and forcefully marrying (i.e. subjecting to sexual slavery) the Midianite virgins; that destroying with fire the innocent children along with the other "evil" beings in Sodom; that such atrocious acts could be considered "good" because "God did it" and "God defines good and evil"; how horribly brainwashed one must be to believe such lunacy.

You're misunderstanding. When I say God determines good and evil, what I mean is that God designed your brain to think certain things are evil and certain things are good.

So the very fact you wrote all of that just proves my point. The only reason you think drowning children and innocent people dying is because God designed us to believe that.

Second, you're using Christian theology against me, and I'm clearly not a Christian.

 

[rusra02]

Since people will have freewill they can make "wrong/evil" decisions in heaven. In such cases are they kicked out of your heaven? If so, can they get back in?

I believe the vast majority of those granted everlasting life will live on earth, not in heaven. (Psalm 37:10,11,29) The Bible reveals that once sin and death received from Adam have been eliminated, those then living will be subjected to a searching test of their integrity. Those who refuse to follow Satan will be judged worthy of everlasting life, while those who yield to selfish inclinations will follow Satan into everlasting death. Since Jehovah judges them to be righteous, it would be very unlikely that these faithful ones would one day turn wicked. If any would ever do so, there would be no valid reason to delay their destruction, IMO.
(Revelation 20:7-10)

 

[rusra02]

Rosie from the Jetson's seemed pretty independent too. A real sweetheart. Too bad people on this thread want to slander and degrade robots.

Looks like all these robots are slaves and servants.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

They will be born again becoming a new person whose desires and passions are no longer dictated by their natural passions but by the Spirit of God.

Then how do you explain honestly good people who aren't followers of Christianity ... Ghandi, for example?

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

You're misunderstanding. When I say God determines good and evil, what I mean is that God designed your brain to think certain things are evil and certain things are good.

So the very fact you wrote all of that just proves my point. The only reason you think drowning children and innocent people dying is because God designed us to believe that.

If that were true, what is "good" and what is "evil" in the mind of one would be nearly identical to what is "good" and what is "evil" in the mind of the another. We are, after all, "designed by God".

But even the most cursory examination of human cultures and civilizations across time shows this not to be true.

Many slavers of the South saw slavery as part of the natural order of things; and at least, "not evil"; where the majority of peoples and society see this as an atrocious act. Today, racists rampage across the globe, seeing separation or annihilation of other races as "good"; but the majority of peoples and society sees this as "evil". In many nations, the "marriage" of a 14 year old is met with celebration and joy, but many within our world sees the marriage of a 14 year old an evil act and see coercion there. Gays in many nations may engage in holy matrimony being met with neutral or joyful responses, but in many nations, this is considered so evil that capital punishment is justified; which, of course, many nations see as evil.

Your claim that mankind has an instinctual, intrinsic understanding of "good" and "evil" does not reflect the reality of our world or the human condition.

In other words: It's not true.

 

[Thanda]

Then how do you explain honestly good people who aren't followers of Christianity ... Ghandi, for example?

The test, as I've always maintained, is our commitment to the truth revealed to us. Although the ideal is for all people to have full access to the knowledge of the true reality of God and his gospel, it is generally sufficient for God's purposes for people to have an understanding of the concept of good and evil. This is regardless of the details of what constitutes good and what constitutes evil. So a child is brought up by his parents (wherever and whoever they may be) and they develop a conscience about what is right or wrong, good or evil. Then at some point God begins to judge them (from a spiritual perspective) at how well they live up to their understanding of what is right or wrong. Are they valiant in standing up for and pursuing what is right? Are they shaky when times get tough? Do they "evolve" because of peer pressure or societal expectations? Do they improve upon their sense of right and wrong when additional light and knowledge comes to them?

All these things are things which God can test regardless of the religion (or no religion) that someone belongs to. Christianity then serves the role of refining people's sense of right and wrong so they are better prepared for heaven when they die. It does not act as an institution which excludes people from heaven who have never heard of it or don't believe it just as it does not automatically save those who claim to believe in it and belong to it.

 

[ThirtyThree]

For religions that put emphasis on this life being a test because we ave freewill and can make bad/wrong decisions, will people have freewill in the afterlife? If freewill makes people so unpredictable that we need to be tested in the first place, what will keep them from making bad/wrong decisions in the afterlife? Will our freewill be removed? Will freewill be limited in some fashion so transgressions can't be made? If our freewill will be removed or limited later, what purpose is there in testing us at all?

You do not have free will now, in my opinion. None of us do. A choice between the equivalent of Coke and Pepsi is hardly free will?

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

You do not have free will now, in my opinion. None of us do. A choice between the equivalent of Coke and Pepsi is hardly free will?

Many neuroscientists hold that "free will" is an illusion.

 

[ThirtyThree]

Many neuroscientists hold that "free will" is an illusion.

They have my agreement.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Then how do you explain honestly good people who aren't followers of Christianity ... Ghandi, for example?

Except for those of Hebrews 6:4-6; Matthew 12:32, according to Romans 6:7 the dead are freed or acquitted from their sins.
That does Not mean they are now innocent, but as a governor can pardon a person so the crime charges No longer stick, Jesus can pardon a person so the sin charges do Not stick.
In Scripture, Jesus did Not promise heaven to all, but only to those followers who would have a first or earlier resurrection - Revelation 20:6; Revelation 5:9-10; Revelation 2:10
What Jesus' promises for the majority of people is a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection back to life on Earth, when under Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth, then Earth will be a beautiful paradisical garden as Eden originally was. - See Isaiah 35
So, in other words, people like Ghandi, etc. will be brought back to healthy physical life on Earth during Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over Earth.
Ghandi, and the majority of mankind, will have the same original opportunity that was originally offered to Adam before his downfall to live forever (everlasting life) on Earth.
That is why the ' future tense ' is used at Acts of the Apostles 24:15 that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection.....'

 

[ThirtyThree]

Except for those of Hebrews 6:4-6; Matthew 12:32, according to Romans 6:7 the dead are freed or acquitted from their sins.
That does Not mean they are now innocent, but as a governor can pardon a person so the crime charges No longer stick, Jesus can pardon a person so the sin charges do Not stick.
In Scripture, Jesus did Not promise heaven to all, but only to those followers who would have a first or earlier resurrection - Revelation 20:6; Revelation 5:9-10; Revelation 2:10
What Jesus' promises for the majority of people is a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection back to life on Earth, when under Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth, then Earth will be a beautiful paradisical garden as Eden originally was. - See Isaiah 35
So, in other words, people like Ghandi, etc. will be brought back to healthy physical life on Earth during Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over Earth.
Ghandi, and the majority of mankind, will have the same original opportunity that was originally offered to Adam before his downfall to live forever (everlasting life) on Earth.
That is why the ' future tense ' is used at Acts of the Apostles 24:15 that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection.....'

Life everlasting on Earth? What of the eventual destruction of the Earth, hence creation of a new Earth and a new Heaven?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Life everlasting on Earth? What of the eventual destruction of the Earth, hence creation of a new Earth and a new Heaven?

First of all, the earth abides forever - Ecclesiastes 1:4 B; 1 Chronicles 16:30; Jeremiah 10:11-12 ; Psalms 96:10; Psalms 93:1 B ; Psalms 78:69 B
Also, God is Not going to destroy His heavenly home - 1 Kings 8:39,43,49
Please notice: 2 Peter 3:5; 2 Peter 3:7 besides 2 Peter 3:13
There are three (3) heavens and earths mentioned:
2 Peter 3:5 mentions the heavens and earth of OLD ( Noah's day )
2 Peter 3:7 mentions the heavens and earth of NOW ( since Noah's day to our day )
2 Peter 3:13 the heavens and earth that are NEW ( new righteous society under Christ's 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth - Matthew 25:31-33,37 )

So, it is Not the planet that is to be destroyed, but as in Noah's day the wicked will be destroyed - Psalms 92:7
The words from Jesus' mouth will Not get rid of the Earth, but the wickedness on Earth - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16
The humble meek or righteous ones will inherit the Earth forever - Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:11; Psalms 37:29; Proverbs 2:21-22

 

[ThirtyThree]

First of all, the earth abides forever - Ecclesiastes 1:4 B; 1 Chronicles 16:30; Jeremiah 10:11-12 ; Psalms 96:10; Psalms 93:1 B ; Psalms 78:69 B
Also, God is Not going to destroy His heavenly home - 1 Kings 8:39,43,49
Please notice: 2 Peter 3:5; 2 Peter 3:7 besides 2 Peter 3:13
There are three (3) heavens and earths mentioned:
2 Peter 3:5 mentions the heavens and earth of OLD ( Noah's day )
2 Peter 3:7 mentions the heavens and earth of NOW ( since Noah's day to our day )
2 Peter 3:13 the heavens and earth that are NEW ( new righteous society under Christ's 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth - Matthew 25:31-33,37 )

So, it is Not the planet that is to be destroyed, but as in Noah's day the wicked will be destroyed - Psalms 92:7
The words from Jesus' mouth will Not get rid of the Earth, but the wickedness on Earth - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16
The humble meek or righteous ones will inherit the Earth forever - Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:11; Psalms 37:29; Proverbs 2:21-22

Okay. Thank you.