Will the Free Market save us from the Corona Virus?

[tytlyf]

I wouldn't do that myself. Health clinics need to turn a profit, just as General Practice doctors do in the UK (even though there is this left-wing myth that they are government employees, which they never have been.). But I feel the issue of universal health care is almost bound to come up, in the aftermath of this.

It's a left-wing myth that doctors in the UK are government employees? That sounds like a RW conspiracy theory.
Here in America, many of the right think Obama turned our healthcare system into government healthcare. Which it isn't.
They actually think private companies are going to vanish if we implement a universal heathcare plan.
Lot's of 1st world countries are able to pull this off, why not the US? Capitalism has corrupted our healthcare industry and the elitists control our lawmakers.

 

[exchemist]

Why do you think there must be profit? Certainly healthcare workers should be paid well, but IMO profiting on sickness and disease seems wrong.

I suppose it does not have to, but I don't see what's wrong with it in principle. General Practitioners are self-employed contractors to the UK health service and get paid by a formula relating to the patients they serve. It works fine and nobody accuses GPs of profiting from disease. In France, my understanding is that health clinics and hospitals can be private concerns but under contract, wholly or partly, to the national health system. And that works fine, too. In both systems the health service has considerable buying power and has a strong interest in using it to prevent profiteering.

Where it seems to go wrong is if the ultimate source of funds is also private and in consequence (i) does not cover every citizen, and (ii) does not have a strong motive for driving a hard bargain with the service providers that it funds.

 

[exchemist]

It's a left-wing myth that doctors in the UK are government employees? That sounds like a RW conspiracy theory.
Here in America, many of the right think Obama turned our healthcare system into government healthcare. Which it isn't.
They actually think private companies are going to vanish if we implement a universal heathcare plan.
Lot's of 1st world countries are able to pull this off, why not the US? Capitalism has corrupted our healthcare industry and the elitists control our lawmakers.

Here is how the contract between general practice doctors and the UK health service works: General medical services - Wikipedia

They are not employees of the state. They are independent contractors.

 

[Heyo]

It's bound to happen occasionally when 2 different posters
have a long lifetime of enjoying their double digit IQs.

Go take an IQ test already, will ya? There's no way it's gonna be in the double digits, the above conclusion of yours alone is good enough for a 100.

 

[Regiomontanus]

I suppose it does not have to, but I don't see what's wrong with it in principle. General Practitioners are self-employed contractors to the UK health service and get paid by a formula relating to the patients they serve. It works fine and nobody accuses GPs of profiting from disease. In France, my understanding is that health clinics and hospitals can be private concerns but under contract, wholly or partly, to the national health system. And that works fine, too. In both systems the health service has considerably buying power and has a strong interest in using it to prevent profiteering.

Where it seems to go wrong is if the ultimate source of funds is also private and in consequence (i) does not cover every citizen, and (ii) does not have a strong motive for driving a hard bargain with the service providers that it funds.

Yes coverage of care should be paramount. The biggest evil, IMHO, is the medical insurance industry here in the US. Why people endorse a system in which their treatment is decided by an entity that has in interest in denying as much care as possible is bizarre.

 

[Revoltingest]

That's because capitalism requires putting profit above everything else. It doesn't make sense to have a huge stockpile of items of any kind if there isn't demand. But I'll tell you one thing, the free market is in overdrive to produce these items. Because of the profit potential. I'm sure there have been some delays to market based on trying to find the lowest cost possible.
They're waiting for other countries to make them at a peanut wage, then they'll be shipped to the US. Then the company will take ownership and figure out how to distribute on Amazon or whatever. Capitalists slow the process.

At least you understand that Trump is doing the opposite of what you want. You voted for him.

That was special.

 

[tytlyf]

Here is how the contract between general practice doctors and the UK health service works: General medical services - Wikipedia

They are not employees of the state. They are independent contractors.

Who said they were employees of the state

That was special.

 

[exchemist]

Yes coverage of care should be paramount. The biggest evil, IMHO, is the medical insurance industry here in the US. Why people endorse a system in which their treatment is decided by an entity that has in interest in denying as much care as possible is bizarre.

My take on this as an outsider - though I did live in the States for a couple of years - is that that is exactly the problem. The insurers are intermediaries, who can make a better profit either by bargaining with service providers or by jacking up the premiums to their subscribers. Guess which is easier?

And, to make it worse, most subscribers to health plans are on schemes paid for by their employer, who has other things to worry about than driving a hard bargain with a health insurer. So they can be fat, dumb and happy, as middlemen, while the costs go up and up and the proportion of people not covered (e.g. if they lose their job) is somebody else's problem. A classic example of market failure, in fact.

 

[Revoltingest]

Go take an IQ test already, will ya? There's no way it's gonna be in the double digits, the above conclusion of yours alone is good enough for a 100.

Why bother?
Would it serve any good purpose?
If it turned out to be higher than I expected, I'd become
even more sanctimonious, pompous, & annoying.
If it turned out to be less than I expected, I'd become
even more morose, withdrawn, & hostile.
And finally, if it's what I expected, I'd be furious at having
wasted all that time to discover that I'm not firing on all cylinders.

 

[Revoltingest]

I wouldn't do that myself. Health clinics need to turn a profit, just as General Practice doctors do in the UK (even though there is this left-wing myth that they are government employees, which they never have been.). But I feel the issue of universal health care is almost bound to come up, in the aftermath of this.

As long as "universal" has a private sector Plan B for those
who want to opt out of the government program, I'm OK with.

 

[exchemist]

As long as "universal" has a private sector Plan B for those
who want to opt out of the government program, I'm OK with.

Well if you run it like the UK, you can always choose private medical treatment, and get private insurance cover for it, but, as with your choice to arrange private education for your children if you wish, you can't opt out of paying the portion of your taxes that fund the national health service. That's the deal, struck with the country after the 2nd World War when the welfare state was created.

In practice what happens is people with money often have private health insurance that they use for all the elective procedures. They can get them faster, at a time of their choice and with consultants of their choice (most consultants work both for the NHS and privately as well). But when it comes to emergency medicine, almost everybody uses the NHS, at least initially, because it is on-call and it is the best at it through the sheer volume it handles. Though they may then go private for the follow up.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well if you run it like the UK, you can always choose private medical treatment, and get private insurance cover for it, but, as with your choice to arrange private education for your children if you wish, you can't opt out of paying the portion of your taxes that fund the national health service. That's the deal, struck with the country after the 2nd World War when the welfare state was created.

The portable tax aspect would require some additional thought for here.
We have some wrinkles (dependence upon local funding) which could
cause problems.

In practice what happens is people with money often have private health insurance that they use for all the elective procedures. They can get them faster, at a time of their choice and with consultants of their choice (most consultants work both for the NHS and privately as well). But when it comes to emergency medicine, almost everybody uses the NHS, at least initially, because it is on-call and it is the best at it through the sheer volume it handles. Though they may then go private for the follow up.

That's what I had in mind.
It's more libertarian than one proposal we had here a while ago
(Hillarycare), which would've made private care illegal.

 

[tytlyf]

As long as "universal" has a private sector Plan B for those
who want to opt out of the government program, I'm OK with.

That's the elitist position as well. You're more than welcome to pay more for the same service. Go for it

 

[tytlyf]

(Hillarycare), which would've made private care illegal.

Liar. Is that a personal attack pointing out the truth? They said the same thing about Obamacare, private companies still doing business.

Contrary to claims by Romney and other Republicans, the Clinton plan does not force Americans to accept "government insurance." It offers people a choice. If they are happy with their present health plan, they can keep it. Otherwise, they can switch to the plans offered to members of Congress, or a government-run plan similar to Medicare.

PolitiFact - Romney's Hillary health care problem

 

[exchemist]

The portable tax aspect would require some additional thought for here.

That's what I had in mind.
It's more libertarian than one proposal we had here a while ago
(Hillarycare), which would've made private care illegal.

I know of no country in the world that enforces that.

 

[Revoltingest]

That's the elitist position as well. You're more than welcome to pay more for the same service. Go for it

I like elitism...but only for the elite.

 

[Revoltingest]

Liar.

Well....there's a conversation stopper.
Fellow liberals must be so proud
of your exemplary behavior here.

 

[Revoltingest]

I know of no country in the world that enforces that.

Her proposal died, likely due to other events involving Bill
capturing everyone's attention. But I also recall in Canuckistan
when people were using medical tourism because they couldn't
buy services.
I recall an old old news item about how long the waiting list
was for CAT scans, but that one could pay for them & get
prompt service for pets.
Please don't ask for links....it was long ago, & as I recall,
Canuckistan took measures to avoid that embarrassment.

 

[tytlyf]

Well....there's a conversation stopper.
Fellow liberals must be so proud
of your exemplary behavior here.

I don't converse with RW conspiracy theorists lying and trolling.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't converse with RW conspiracy theorists lying and trolling.

Tis a good sign then that you grace
me with your posts so often.