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Will the Free Market save us from the Corona Virus?

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
This OP is posted in the "North American Politics" forum because RF doesn't have a "U.S. Politics" sub-forum. But what the heck, ... Third World North Americans may have something to say regarding the topic. :p So, feel free to give voice to your opinions, Canadians.

Surprisingly, to me, I still remember my first introduction to Adam Smith's metaphor of "the Invisible Hand" in a college economics course. Rather than bungle a description of the metaphor, I'll quote someone else's description. [Feel free to provide your own favorite version.]
  • Screenshot_2020-04-06.png
So, when I read this "headline": The Free Market Will Save Us From the Coronavirus!
  • Screenshot_2020-04-06 (2).png
I wondered: Will it?

What do you think?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
It's an invisible nothing. It will save us just like prayers to a different invisible entity. People don't always act rationally or even in their self interest, so that part is bunk. The market is heavily manipulated all around, so thats a lie as well as "supply and demand" do not set prices. It's time we say "no more invisible **** running society." It's not invisible, it's real people doing nasty things, such as medicine price gouging, and of course nothing invisible can save us.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
@terry...
I just saw a Harbor Freight ad for 5 masks (dust respirators) for a dollar.
(I heard on NPR how companies have ramped up production to 7 days/week.)
But to answer the titular question, the free market isn't equipped for pandemics.
This is one good use for a central government & all the lesser ones because of
the potential for highly coordinated efforts.
 
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Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
What do you think?

As typically decentralised and competitive systems based on individual self-interest, free markets work well for somethings but not others. Long period of peace such as Europe between 1815 to 1914 gives the market system the space to transform the economy and society with the industrial revolution. Similarly from 1945 up to about 2008, we have enjoyed a very long period of near continuous growth (minus the 1970's) and sustained peace time for Europe and North America. If you are Henry Ford and you want to take a motor car, mass produce it, make a huge profit by expanding the consumer base and lowering costs of production, this long-term situation is ideal because you can build one improvement upon another.

However, if you want something done quickly, a "command economy" is usually better. The degree of centralisation means that the economy can be mobilised towards a single over-riding objective, such as fighting a war. Market economies are fairly anarchic and so can't respond to major historical events that occur out of the blue. The evidence suggests that markets have largely failed to address climate change. The command economy may be great for wartime, but it isn't that good during peace time, when there isn't a single over-riding objective to organise every activity towards. Hence, the Planned economies in the USSR did really well crashing through industrialisation in the 1930's and getting the country through world war II, but struggled to cope with the diversity of functions arising out of peace time. The consensus is, this degree of centralisation is "bad" for individual freedom, but if you are in a life and death struggle with a single clear collective objectives (survival), it may be a better choice.

That being said, these aren't "pure" systems, as free markets have a degree of planning within corporations and planned economies have still relied on markets and money as a medium for exchange. I'd say it's highly probable we are in for a period with much greater government intervention in the economy and a degree of economic planning not seen in western countries since the second world war. Free markets may then reassert themselves at a later date (unless "something" happens which gives planned/command economies a decisive advantage, such as the use of computers and artificial intelligence in the planning process).
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
@terry...
I just saw a Harbor Freight ad for 5 masks (dust respirators) for a dollar.
(I heard on NPR how companies have ramped up production to 7 days/week.)
But to answer the titular question, the free market isn't equipped for pandemics.
This is one good use for a central government & all the lesser ones because of
the potential for highly coordinated efforts.
There you go again - writing something I agree with.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
What do you think?
I would say no.

To me one of the reasons we are in this huge mess in the world (Not the virus, just in general) is because of people and a system encouraging people to do things which is in their own self interest.

Working with such ideology, its obvious that stepping on someone else in order to achieve ones own self interest is not about doing what is best for society and people, but what is best for you as individual.

Furthermore assuming that all people have the means or resources to pursue this, on equal terms with everyone else, is not going to happen. A system like this, is not designed for the common good, but rather for the few and powerful.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
This OP is posted in the "North American Politics" forum because RF doesn't have a "U.S. Politics" sub-forum. But what the heck, ... Third World North Americans may have something to say regarding the topic. :p So, feel free to give voice to your opinions, Canadians.

Surprisingly, to me, I still remember my first introduction to Adam Smith's metaphor of "the Invisible Hand" in a college economics course. Rather than bungle a description of the metaphor, I'll quote someone else's description. [Feel free to provide your own favorite version.]
So, when I read this "headline": The Free Market Will Save Us From the Coronavirus!
I wondered: Will it?

What do you think?
Yes, I read a thoughtful piece in the Financial Times some days ago, that suggested the "invisible hand" of coronavirus is forcing people to realise the role of government is a lot more vital than the free marketeers have been claiming for the last 30 years. Rather the cartoonist's point, in fact.

It seems obvious that the free market is not suitable for "saving" us from the virus. In a pure free market system the incentive to solve the problem would be by making money out of it. Those without the means to pay for medical treatment would just risk death and disability.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Those without the means to pay for medical treatment would just risk death and disability.
While those setting the prices risk dismemberment, being drawn and quartered, beheaded, having molten poured down their throats, or the other ways the greedy and oppressive have died at the hands of angry masses who will have no more.
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
the free market isn't equipped for pandemics.
That's because capitalism requires putting profit above everything else. It doesn't make sense to have a huge stockpile of items of any kind if there isn't demand. But I'll tell you one thing, the free market is in overdrive to produce these items. Because of the profit potential. I'm sure there have been some delays to market based on trying to find the lowest cost possible.
They're waiting for other countries to make them at a peanut wage, then they'll be shipped to the US. Then the company will take ownership and figure out how to distribute on Amazon or whatever. Capitalists slow the process.
This is one good use for a central government & all the lesser ones because of
the potential for highly coordinated efforts.
At least you understand that Trump is doing the opposite of what you want. You voted for him.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
@terry...
I just saw a Harbor Freight ad for 5 masks (dust respirators) for a dollar.
(I heard on NPR how companies have ramped up production to 7 days/week.)
But to answer the titular question, the free market isn't equipped for pandemics.
This is one good use for a central government & all the lesser ones because of
the potential for highly coordinated efforts.
Agreed. The question that might, I suppose, come up in the wake of this is whether the free market should be entrusted with health care provision.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Agreed. The question that might, I suppose, come up in the wake of this is whether the free market should be entrusted with health care provision.
Uh oh.....you've drawn a line in the sand. Now posters will
line up into the only-government & only-for-profit teams.
Sticks & stones will be thrown!
My old shop worn proposal has both. It's never been
popular here, so I'll spare the unfamiliar the boring framework.
 
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exchemist

Veteran Member
Uh oh.....you've drawn a line in the sand. Now posters will
line up into the only-government & only-for-profit teams.
My old shop worn proposal has both. It's never been
popular here, so I'll spare the unfamiliar the boring framework.
I wouldn't do that myself. Health clinics need to turn a profit, just as General Practice doctors do in the UK (even though there is this left-wing myth that they are government employees, which they never have been.). But I feel the issue of universal health care is almost bound to come up, in the aftermath of this.
 

Regiomontanus

Ματαιοδοξία ματαιοδοξιών! Όλα είναι ματαιοδοξία.
This OP is posted in the "North American Politics" forum because RF doesn't have a "U.S. Politics" sub-forum. But what the heck, ... Third World North Americans may have something to say regarding the topic. :p So, feel free to give voice to your opinions, Canadians.

Surprisingly, to me, I still remember my first introduction to Adam Smith's metaphor of "the Invisible Hand" in a college economics course. Rather than bungle a description of the metaphor, I'll quote someone else's description. [Feel free to provide your own favorite version.]
So, when I read this "headline": The Free Market Will Save Us From the Coronavirus!
I wondered: Will it?

What do you think?

No. It is destroying the biosphere.
 

Regiomontanus

Ματαιοδοξία ματαιοδοξιών! Όλα είναι ματαιοδοξία.
I wouldn't do that myself. Health clinics need to turn a profit, just as General Practice doctors do in the UK (even though there is this left-wing myth that they are government employees, which they never have been.). But I feel the issue of universal health care is almost bound to come up, in the aftermath of this.


Why do you think there must be profit? Certainly healthcare workers should be paid well, but IMO profiting on sickness and disease seems wrong.
 
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