Will God save the world or a few?

[sandy whitelinger]

God will save all.....eventually; some will take longer to get 'there', but eventually, we all will.

Now do you have scripture to back that up or are you just an unfailing optimist?

 

[Fluffy]

I am at a loss as to why you cannot understand the simple dialect I am using. All people die a physical death. You will die a physical death, I will die a physical death. Now, without Christ you would never again live (although not in a physical body). This is a biblical debate remember. It is designed so others who have knowledge of the "bible" can attempt to refute statements others make concerning scripture.

We have a special section for Biblical debates and if you intended it to be as such then I can move it there for you.

I don't believe that whatever we experience after death will be close enough to what we experience now to qualify as life. Regardless, death is a prerequisite of resurrection. God is clearly not saving us from death.

Man does not have any "freewill". We have a will but it is not free from outside cause or influences. Every action is a reaction to another action and no one is exempt from this. To have freewill one would need to be free from this. So really it is the theory that man has freewill that is contradictory to anything scriptural.

I completely agree with you. I think that free will and choice are illusions. However, I do think that free will has a scriptual basis and I think that a lack of free will is even more contradictive with scripture than free will.

In RC theology it's not impossible.

I think in most Christian denominations there is an acceptance that Christ's sacrifice was clearly not necessary for salvation since salvation predated this event. Are you saying that RC believe that a person can be saved without any input from God's grace at all? If so that would certainly get the thumbs up from me .

I'm a bit tired tonight to do a one on one debate properly but I'll PM you so we can discuss exactly what we want to include in the debate .

 

[Quiddity]

I think in most Christian denominations there is an acceptance that Christ's sacrifice was clearly not necessary for salvation since salvation predated this event. Are you saying that RC believe that a person can be saved without any input from God's grace at all? If so that would certainly get the thumbs up from me .

Heavens no! God's Grace is absolutely necessary. I was thinking more along the lines of someone following The Law perfectly.

And his cricifixion wasn't necessary, but his death certainly was. I'd be surprised if you bumped into a Christian who didn't think God had to become Man and die.

I'm a bit tired tonight to do a one on one debate properly but I'll PM you so we can discuss exactly what we want to include in the debate .

Ok....

 

[Elvendon]

I voted yes, but frankly I think though God intends fully to save everyone, and I hope that everyone will be saved, whether or not they will all be saved is not for me to say.

I believe that few take the path of righteousness, which necissitates God's grace. Otherwise, only a fraction of humanity with achieve Theosis

 

[Katzpur]

From death.

I didn't know how to vote until I read this statement of clarification. If you are speaking strictly of salvation from death, I believe He will save the world. I base my belief on the fact that the Bible states, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

If you had been referring to salvation from hell, or eternity spent in a state devoid of God's glory, I'd have said that the vast majority of mankind, but not every individual who has ever lived, will be saved. I base that belief, one again on the Bible, which says, "...he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation." Since I do not believe very many are even in the postion to be able to blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, I don't believe many will be damned.

If you had been referring to the fulness of salvation, or exaltation and eternal life in the presence of God, I would say that relatively few will be saved. I base that statement on these words, also from the Bible, "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

 

[Katzpur]

I believe that few take the path of righteousness, which necissitates God's grace. Otherwise, only a fraction of humanity with achieve Theosis

Would you explain your understanding of Theosis, please.

 

[joeboonda]

This is the misunderstanding that happens when one doesn't take all of scripture into account. For example this verse from John 3:18 refutes clearly your assertation:

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

It is not the will of God that any should perish but it is the rejection of Christ that condemns.

exactly.

 

[Mike182]

i voted "God can't save all because of mans freewill"

there are some truely evil people who will not attain salvation, but that is because they are evil peopel.

i do not think someone will be damned or condemned for not believing in Jesus Christ, or for not believing in any other prophey, or for not believing in God at all.
If God is present in everything, it matters not if i accept him, because he is inevitable - so if God exists, only my actions can count, and if God does not exist, i'm not going anywhere special anyway

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

Only those who have done their best to follow the entire Bible will be saved.

 

[Katzpur]

Regardless, death is a prerequisite of resurrection. God is clearly not saving us from death.

Good point. I hadn't thought of it quite that way. When I mentioned that I believe Christ saves us from death, I meant that He saves us from the permanance of death. In other words, each of us will die, but because of Him we will be resurrected someday.

 

[Katzpur]

Only those who have done their best to follow the entire Bible will be saved.

So I guess that means that those who never had the opportunity to read, believe and follow the Bible will be bound to spend an eternity in hell. Is that what you are saying?

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

So I guess that means that those who never had the opportunity to read, believe and follow the Bible will be bound to spend an eternity in hell. Is that what you are saying?

Katzpur, karzpur, katzpur, we've been through this a million times. YES!!!!! That is exactly what I'm saying.

 

[Katzpur]

Katzpur, karzpur, katzpur, we've been through this a million times. YES!!!!! That is exactly what I'm saying.

I know we've been through it a million times. And we'll probably go through it a million more times. You see, I'm just trying to get my arms around the idea that God loves you more than He loves the next guy. It just strikes me as so arrogant. Do you have any concept at all that there are billions of people who would have "followed the entire Bible" if they'd only had that chance? You may think I'm being hard on you, but I'm actually trying to get you to realize how egotistical that mind-set really is. I guess I keep questioning your reasoning because I just can't accept the fact that any sincere Christian would believe God would condemn billions of people to Hell for no other reason than that they happened to be born in the wrong place or at the wrong time. I want to think that the God in whom you believe is more loving and merciful than you make Him out to be. I want to believe that you personally are less judgmental and more rational than you are coming across. In other words, Christiangirl, I am trying my damndest to give you the benefit of the doubt but you are just flat out refusing to take it.

I have just one question for you. How do you reconcile the idea that God is love with the idea that He has condemned the majority of His own children to spend eternity in torment?

 

[Super Universe]

Katzpur, karzpur, katzpur, we've been through this a million times. YES!!!!! That is exactly what I'm saying.

Of course God wouldn't want them! If they've never read the bible then they don't know the rules they must follow!

People can't just be good on their own. They cannot truly be forgiven even if they can truly forgive others. God will not accept anyone who finds it on their own, they must go through the church and pay dues.

And they cannot be saved unless they become baptized in Jesus name. Completely submerged! Not just sprinkles! It doesn't work like that!

Gosh, doesn't everyone know this?




Sarcasm.

 

[Smoke]

So I guess that means that those who never had the opportunity to read, believe and follow the Bible will be bound to spend an eternity in hell. Is that what you are saying?

Katzpur, karzpur, katzpur, we've been through this a million times. YES!!!!! That is exactly what I'm saying.

How can you possibly respect a god like that?

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

You see, I'm just trying to get my arms around the idea that God loves you more than He loves the next guy.

Oh, never that. I know that God loves us all the same. Just because you and I have heard the message, and others have not, does not mean I believe God loves us more.

Do you have any concept at all that there are billions of people who would have "followed the entire Bible" if they'd only had that chance?

Yes. And it is our responsibility to tell the other billion still out there. As Christians, we have to spread the Word. God gave us the job to tell everyone about his wonderful message, and to make sure that all have the chance to be saved. And there are amazing men and women who are missionaries in Africa, South America, and Asia doing that very thing this very moment. And we here at home can help by supporting them financially or making sure that our neighbors, friends, and coworkers have heard our good news.

You may think I'm being hard on you

Not at all. I respect you for not beating around the bush, and telling me exactly what you think. Thank you.

I guess I keep questioning your reasoning because I just can't accept the fact that any sincere Christian would believe God would condemn billions of people to Hell for no other reason than that they happened to be born in the wrong place or at the wrong time.

First of all, if I had a problem with accepting facts, I probably wouldn't be a Christian right now. There are many hard things to accept in the Bible. But we have to accept all of it. I believe that you must be baptized, and be a faithful Christian your whole life to be saved. I believe that if you don't do this, you are going to hell. I accept that. Secondly, as I said before, it is us Christians job to make sure that NO ONE has been born in the wrong place. As for the wrong time, we can't really help those who never heard the message and have already died.

I want to believe that you personally are less judgmental and more rational than you are coming across.

Please elaborate. How am I being judgmental or irrational?

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

And they cannot be saved unless they become baptized in Jesus name. Completely submerged! Not just sprinkles! It doesn't work like that!

Although you were being sarcastic, you clearly stated what I believe. Thank you.

How can you possibly respect a god like that?

Because a God like that not only created me, but saved me from my sins. The least I can do is respect a God like that.

 

[Katzpur]

Please elaborate. How am I being judgmental or irrational?

Please just see the new thread I just started. I am sincerely trying to understand where you're coming from. And I suspect you're not the only one on this forum who feels as you do. I'd like to hear from others who share your belief.

 

[Truth101]

Quote from Sandywhitelinger

This is the misunderstanding that happens when one doesn't take all of scripture into account. For example this verse from John 3:18 refutes clearly your assertation:

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

It is not the will of God that any should perish but it is the rejection of Christ that condemns.

Wasn't Jesus condemned also? Do you always load assumptions of on words such as "condemned"? If one is condemned does this automatically eliminate any future reconciliation? You must believe that this word condemned instantly means unsaved destined for the gas chamber. Parish, condemned, etc do not carry with them any reason to assume hopless destruction. Does the passage say what their condemnation is? No. Are you reading into the passage something that isn't stated? All the text surrounding this text imply reconciliation of these lost but you see this one part and believe this piece of scrpiture refutes all passages surrounding it. It is you who has not taken all scipture into account not I.

Then you say that it is NOT THE WILL of the Father that any should parish, and you add a big "BUT" to that. Do you think that Gods will is merely a weak wish? Maybe just a desire to have things go His way? Maybe, just maybe if He had of just did something a little different He could have saved them? I mean He is only God, He can only do so much, right? Wrong. He is God working His PERFECT WILL in the world and He shall accomplish all that He has PLANNED AND PURPOSED.

Yes the man that rejects Christ is condemned but not to what you think. They will take no part of the kingdom with those who have believed and overcome. They will however remain dead until the 1000 years of this kingdom are expired. Then they are raised and judged and saved through the fire. This is their condemnation.
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day(the day of judgment) shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This makes it pretty clear what their condemnation is. Notice that this condemnation has been served and the person himself will be save. How? AS BY FIRE. This fire is the same fire orthodox christianity teaches is eternal, torchering and burning without mercy for all eternity without end.

Whatever happened to "let the punishment fit the crime"? Mankind in all their hardened hearts have more mercy than the god you say you serve.
This theology makes God out to be a vindictive monster who is never satisfied with the punishment he inflicts for all eternity. Your god is a forgiving, mercyful, loving, JUST, god? This is not the God of the scriptures thats for sure.
How can a mans measily 80-100 even 120 years of disobedience on earth ever justly deserve eternity in a merciless flesh sceering lake of literal fire with no hope ever of recieving even so much as a drop of literal water?
This is just?
Lets just see what all this says about your God.
1: He is either incapable or unwilling to save all.
2: Your god's will is in subjection to mans will.
3: Mans will is stronger than the will of your god.
4: Your gods love ends for the unrepentant at the grave.
5: The grave is stronger than your god.
6: Instead of your god boasting to death and the grave "oh death where is thy sting? Oh grave where is thy victory?", death and the grave will return those words to your god because the grave and death have billions upon billions of victims in eternity it would appear that death and the grave are the ones with the victory unless your god is content that he managed to get a few.

I can go on and on all day but you get the point (I hope). Isnt God the almighty? Isnt He the omniscient? Isnt He benevolent? Is God not love itself?
Gods anger wrath and judgment are all done in love because God is love and therefore cannot be seperated from His character. So if He does these things in love then He does them for the purpose of correction. His judgments are remedial and come to an end once they have served their purpose.

God bless, Dave

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I am not ignorant of what Evangelicals imagine to be the message of the Bible, but I do reject that imagining. I reject much of what is in Paul, and I reject the idea that any book at all is inerrant.

That's not the same as rejecting the Bible. I love the Bible.

So when you asked, "Save the world from what?" you knew the answer. So, you were just baiting?