Will God save the world or a few?

[Truth101]

Well said Alan. It does boil down to how we see God. Except for Athiests obviously. They have it easy.

I believe part of the reason athiests are athiests is because of this blasphemous eternal torment theory. I was a devoted Christian for 22 years. I was a youth paster for a year. I committed myself to God (through the eyes of Christian doctrine) yet I still struggled to justify Gods inability to save because mans freewill was just too much for Him. I am more greatful to God than ever before in my life that I now know this isn't the God of the bible. That His love can never be seperated from all creation and everything He does regarding punishment and judgment is all out of His great love for us.

So with that said....I don't blame athiests for being who they are. I believe they have a better understanding of God than orthodox christianity. They are not indoctrinated with the doctrines of man. This puts them in a better position to recieve the truth by having a clear few of the horizon.

God bless, Dave

 

[Moses the God Archetype*]

:flower2: In order to be save as the christians put it, in my opinion depends on your personal relasonship that you have with him, not on a perticerlar set or religion you may claim.m:
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[sandy whitelinger]

Ok, Parish means death eternal eh?
Mar 4:38 And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish? (plainly die a physical death)
Mat 8:25 And his disciples came to him and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.(plainly die a physical death)
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place:for all they that take the sword shall perish withthe sword. (plainly die a physical death)
Those who experience aionios death stay dead throught the 1000 year kingdom reign and are not ressurected till after it. This is aionios death. They are to stay in death until judgment. Then they are raised. The second death is what the non believer has to go through in the fire, just as the chosen elect experience that death to self here on earth. You will not find the words aionios death or aionios life after this kingdom.
Aionios death is the wicked dead remaining dead through the kingdom age. It is an age of death not an eternity. Aionios life is life in the kingdom age.During the kingdom and following the kingdom you never see this word aionios used again in scripture. Why is that? Because this word is only used when statements are made regarding the kingdom age. It says that their condemnation is to not know the light (truth) So they remain in darkness (ignorance), not eternal death. You say I do not take all of scripture into context and then you continue to add to the scriptures.Now you accuse me of refusing scripture when you yourself instead of addressing the scriptures I use, you come up with another scripture which you believe contradicts the scriptures I have used. You attempt to make scriptures contradict scriptures. What kind of scholarship is that.Lets look at verse 10 as well.
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. Christ has laid the foundation and no other foundation can any man lay than the one that has already been laid. The wicked lost do not have their own seperate foundation. All mankind whether believer or not are judged according to what they have done in their lives. Some have established good works and some have established none. Do you seriously think that any one believer has never done a thing God could call good works? Nonsense the very fact they beleive causes them to live Even a little more Godly. This is obviously speaking of every person who ever lived. This is a TRIAL by fire. A trial is held for those who are accused of something. Gods elect Have already overcome, so why the trial?
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble
1Co 3:13 Every man's work (what part of "every man" do you not understand?) shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work (how many times will it have to be repeated before YOU recieve it? And you say I refuse scripture.)of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (how many of these fires do you know of in scripture? Lets see your scriptural evidence that God does not interfere with mans choice to reject Him or accept Him. There are consequenses and rewards but the consequences are not eternal. But back to your claim that God does not interfere with the choice either way. You have just contradicted many passages of scripture that you have probably read a million times but never related it to your belief here. Please give me those scriptures.Yes and then raised Him again to glory. Theres a difference between God sending Jesus to the GRAVE and sending Him to an eternal fire. All this was done in LOVE. Ok if your version of Christs victory is saving a few and losing billions and billions to death and the grave than you have silly concept of victory. Victory is decided in the end when two or more opponents have examined the end result of their race. Here anyone with the ability to put their shoes on the right feet could see that death and the grave have taken the victory if billions upon billion of souls remain the victims of death.You must also believe that when a man dies without confessing Christ then he is lost to this fire pit as well. Well remember, Jesus went beyond the grave to raise the dead. Also remember that He did this BEFORE He died and took the keys of death. How much MORE power over death and the grave do you think He gained through that? Its a rediculous theory (completely unscriptural) to suggest a man will have no hope after death. That Christ is all of a sudden powerless against that which He has overcome. You speak out of line. This is exactly what you have done, especially concerning Gods never interfering with mans choice to accept or reject Christ.[/quote]
We should address the subject of mans free choice being exempt from Gods intervening next.God Bless, Dave

Good luck with all of that then.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

God will save nothing because there is no god.

Good luck with that.

 

[sparc872]

So with that said....I don't blame athiests for being who they are. I believe they have a better understanding of God than orthodox christianity. They are not indoctrinated with the doctrines of man. This puts them in a better position to recieve the truth by having a clear few of the horizon.

I'll buy into that

 

[Katzpur]

So with that said....I don't blame athiests for being who they are. I believe they have a better understanding of God than orthodox christianity. They are not indoctrinated with the doctrines of man. This puts them in a better position to recieve the truth by having a clear few of the horizon.

I fail to see how someone who does not even believe in God could possibly have a better understanding of God than someone who does. You'll have to explain that one further.

That said, I don't "blame" atheists for being who they are, either. Faith is a hard thing to understand. We can't just turn it on and off. You either believe or you don't. I definitely don't think someone can simply will himself to believe, and I think it's a big mistake for those who do believe to assume that it's just a matter of determination.

 

[Truth101]

I fail to see how someone who does not even believe in God could possibly have a better understanding of God than someone who does. You'll have to explain that one further.

That said, I don't "blame" atheists for being who they are, either. Faith is a hard thing to understand. We can't just turn it on and off. You either believe or you don't. I definitely don't think someone can simply will himself to believe, and I think it's a big mistake for those who do believe to assume that it's just a matter of determination.

I was'nt talking about or made any comment that would cause you to think that faith could be turned on or off or that believing is a matter of determination. Infact, I believe quite the opposite. I believe it is all God who seeks, calls, and molds a person and their faith. I do not believe at all that the decision to believe is a mans choice. Scripture is animate on this point. "there are none that seeketh God", You did not choose Me but, I have chosen you", "No man can come to the knowledge of the truth except the spirit draw him first.".
This falls right in line with "It is not of yourselves LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST".
It is God who arranges our lives and places us in a condition to receive Him and the truth. Hence, the athiests are in that very condition.
Is God not the sculpter? Does He not have to smash the mold to dust in order to remold. Athiests are already in that dusty condition not indoctrinated by man but in perfect shape to recieve truth. Many will not recieve the truth just as most who lay claim to the truth will not recieve absolute truth.
What I am saying is the theology of Orthodox Christianity is burned into the minds of its followers leaving them in an adolesant condition by believing that they know all of the strong meat of scripture. Paul described these as babes in Christ continually preaching Christ crucified and never able to recieve the meat of spiritual truth.

Example:
The rich man and Lazarus is not a literal story of one who went to eternal torment and the other who went to heaven. This parable carries with it a greater spiritual understanding surrounding Gods promises to the Jews and giving the promises to the gentiles. There is a great study in this but I will not discuss it right now. Point being, Christians are not ready to eat this meat.

Jesus casting out devils from a man has an even greater spiritual understanding than just Jesus performing an exercist. He was revealing to man what the lake of fire was designed to do after the judgment. It will seperate the man from his wickedness and doubt. This is another huge study but I will cover a little.

Do you notice that the possessed man is cutting himself with stones (commandments, law)? Do you notice that he lives among the tombs (death, grave)?
Do you also notice what happens to the devils once cast out of the man? They are cast into the swine and drowned in a LAKE (destroyed in the lake)

This is just a taste of the spiritual understanding that Christianity still denies even in the face of scriptural proof. All parables combines are designed to reveal the kingdom of God and Gods plan for mankind but Orthodox Christianity insists on either literalising the parables or relating then to physical things instead of spiritual even when our Lord said "the words I speak are spirit",
"without a parable He did not speak" (to the multitudes).

They are not prepared for strong meat at this time.

With all this being said athiests are more open to recieve spiritual understanding because they have not been indoctrinated with all this to just recieve every wind of doctrine that passes by but, at some point in their lives (not all of them, but some) some will be in a perfect condition to recieve and have faith.

God bless, Dave

 

[Katzpur]

With all this being said athiests are more open to recieve spiritual understanding because they have not been indoctrinated with all this literallization of spiritual things.
The very fact that they call themselves athiests is because they are not willing to just on every wind of doctrine that passes by but, at some point in their lives (not all of them, but some) some will be in a perfect condition to recieve and have faith.

I see what you mean, and to some extent I agree. But I was just trying to say that, while they are still atheist, they do not understand God at all. I totally believe that "at some point in their lives... some will be in a perfect condition to receive and have faith."

 

[Truth101]

I see what you mean, and to some extent I agree. But I was just trying to say that, while they are still atheist, they do not understand God at all. I totally believe that "at some point in their lives... some will be in a perfect condition to receive and have faith."

I should also elaborate on something else here to clarify.

When I say that some and not all will eventually receive, I am not saying that those who don't (in their lifetime here on earth) will never come to the truth. What I am saying is, is that while they are still on earth alive some will receive but I am not saying that those who do not will either be annihilated or tormented eternally. I believe that through the fire all will be made whole and placed in the condition to receive and praise God for all He has done. Eventually necessitating God being ALL IN ALL.

God bless, Dave

 

[Katzpur]

I should also elaborate on something else here to clarify.

When I say that some and not all will eventually receive, I am not saying that those who don't (in their lifetime here on earth) will never come to the truth. What I am saying is, is that while they are still on earth alive some will receive but I am not saying that those who do not will either be annihilated or tormented eternally. I believe that through the fire all will be made whole and placed in the condition to receive and praise God for all He has done. Eventually necessitating God being ALL IN ALL.

God bless, Dave

Very interesting. That's pretty much what I believe.

 

[lunamoth]

All parables combines are designed to reveal the kingdom of God and Gods plan for mankind but Orthodox Christianity insists on either literalising the parables or relating then to physical things instead of spiritual even when our Lord said "the words I speak are spirit",
"without a parable He did not speak" (to the multitudes).

They are not prepared for strong meat at this time.

If by Orthodox Christians you mean Catholics (RCC and EOC), Anglicans and also a lot of the mainstream Protestant Churches, then you are mistaken. These parts of the Christian Church are much more likely to emphasize the sacred and spiritual meanings of the Gosples than they are the literalness of them. In my experience Evangelical Christians are the folks who tend to emphasize the literal meanings of scripture.

2c,
luna

 

[Ody]

G-d will save all the Just, he doesn't care about what team you are on, Baruch HaShem

 

[Truth101]

G-d will save all the Just, he doesn't care about what team you are on, Baruch HaShem

All the just will rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years. All mankind will be saved in the end. Every knee will bow and every tonge will confess Christ as Lord to the glory of God the Father. Plan, purpose, completion, fullfilled, period.

God Bless, Dave

 

[Truth101]

If by Orthodox Christians you mean Catholics (RCC and EOC), Anglicans and also a lot of the mainstream Protestant Churches, then you are mistaken. These parts of the Christian Church are much more likely to emphasize the sacred and spiritual meanings of the Gosples than they are the literalness of them. In my experience Evangelical Christians are the folks who tend to emphasize the literal meanings of scripture.

2c,
luna

Just to clarify,
Do you believe that the parable and the rich man is understood as contrasting heaven and hell in the literal sense? What do you understand of this parable?

Do you understand the spiritual significance of the man possessed by demons whom Jesus cast out? What was the purpose of this story?

Do you believe the lucifer is the devil, satan?

Dave

 

[may]

:flower2: In order to be save as the christians put it, in my opinion depends on your personal relasonship that you have with him, not on a perticerlar set or religion you may claim.m:
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yes a personal relationship with God is the thing to aim for, we can only have a relationship with someone if we know them, and the bible tells us all about the qualities of Jehovah God and his son Jesus christ.
This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. John 17;3

 

[Truth101]

At first I did not think I could answer your poll as I am not a follower of Christian theology. Whil washing my hair I was mulling this question when it dawned on me how I understand this supposed event. In my understanding ALL humans will eventually reach enlightenment (in Buddhist terms, even though I am not a Buddhist LOL... sorry it is a rather long story LOL.) Since I firmly believe that to be the case I simply hopped, skipped and jumped to "God will save all = All will reach enlightenment". :thud:

I am not a follower of Christian theology myself. I used to years ago. That is my stand. I believe that all will recieve the knowledge of the truth. One can only attain enlightenment(understanding of truth) when we recieve the spirit of God in us. Outside of this there is no truth and no understanding. I believe that the sacrifice of Christ on the cross gave all man salvation whether accepted or not. I do not believe it is an agreement (ifyou do this I'll do that) It was a gift with nothing expected in return. The difference I see is most live in a lifestyle where they are unaware but, that is the will of God that they do not understand as it is the will of God for those with understanding to have that understanding. In the end God will bring all into this knowledge and God will in due time be ALL IN ALL.

My thinking in recent weeks is that by truly doing our OWN will, we are in fact doing God's will. I also believe that all beings are essentially "good" (and yes, I try to remember that when I am watching the evening news.) You will perhaps forgive me if I understand exactly how to materialize my own will, but am at a bit of a loss about doing God's will, which amounts to doing what someone else wants me to do. More importantly HOW do you truly ever know you are actually doing your god's will? Because you read it in a book...... written by men? Some solace that ought to be.

I believe if we have the spirit of God in us our will becomes His will yes, but I also believe that not all have His spirit hence, the evening news. Most do not know what they are doing themselves to even care about doing the will of God whom they do not know. I do not believe our translated versions of scripture are inspired from God in the sense that it is totally free from mans input. There are many translation mistakes that have induced a blasphemous portrayal of Gods image. I believe that the message is still in the pages but it takes the spirit of God to open our eyes to it weeding out the unispired doctrines of man. The act of love towards all is the Lords will. It is expressed throughout the pages of scripture but those who carry the doctrine of eternal punishment can only seem to find the nagative evils of understanding because the thoughts of their hearst are only evil continually and can only see God through this darkness for there is no light in them.

If you choose to believe words on a page rather that what is in your heart then I do not know what to say to you. If you need the words in a book to reinforce what you feel with every fibre of your being, then I also do not know what to say to you to make you understand. I do agree with Jesus though in that the Kingdom of Heaven lies within. I assure you it is within your grasp though you probably do not know exactly what I am meaning. Pity that more folks didn't spend a fraction of the time looking within that they do studying their silly little books.

I do not believe that the elect of God need the scriptures as it is the spirit that leads all men to the knowledge of the truth. Just because you wish not to look to the bible means nothing to me. You may have the spirit leading you into all truth as well. Jesus said Himslef "my sheep hear my voice". Maybe one day God will open up more understanding to you through the scriptures as He has for me. I honestly believe He was working in my life before I even knew of the bible.

No problem Dave, not to worry, I am sure your god will bless you. Words to the wise... Be careful what you wish for -- you just might get it.

I have already got it . My understanding of matters of truth have taken a giant leap in the last 2 years. I know He is with me working His perfect will in my life. It is not up to me to know His will, it is Him that wills through me.

God Bless you walk, Dave