Why Would God Wait?

[Linus]

Cause heaven is bliss and earth is earth. In Christian theory God is making you do time outside of bliss to prove ( ie be judged) your worth to him. Why?

Why should He just hand heaven over on a platter for us? What have we done to deserve such a reward? Earth was bliss at one time. God gave us a chance at bliss in the garden of Eden and we blew it anyway.

 

[painted wolf]

what did we do that required such a test?
Did god just make to many of us and needed to weed us out a bit?
How could the Garden of Eden be bliss if it wasn't heaven and thus disconnected from god?

wa:do

 

[Mr Spinkles]

The answer is that we don't know the answer.

As is the answer to the question "how can an invisible pink unicorn be both invisible AND pink?" Perhaps there is no answer because the proposition doesn't make sense, and perhaps the proposition doesn't make sense because it isn't true.

 

[lilithu]

Why would God wait until after death to judge, punish or reward us? Why not do these things while we are alive?

Let's look at Darth Vader. If "God" were to judge and punish/reward him while he was still alive, would "God" punish him for all the evil that he had done before his final act of redemption? Or would "God" wait until his final act, in order to reward him for what "God" knows will come? If "God" did punish Lord Vader for all the evil that he'd done while he was still alive, mightn't that affect what Vader does at that key moment towards the end? At what point during the Sith Lord's life should "God" have stepped in to judge?

We always have a chance to turn our life around, for better or for worse, until we can't anymore.


Not that I actually believe in any of this judgement/punishment/reward stuff, but if it were the case, it seems logical to me to wait til after death. The ancient Egyptians thought the same thing. After death, all of your good acts and all of your bad acts were summed up and weighed on a scale. The only fair time to judge, if there is a fair time at all, is to do it after death.


Personally, I believe that for all the good I do and all the bad, the most important consequences are immediate, and it has nothing to do with judgement/punishment/reward.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Okay, so let me make sure I understand what you're saying: you believe that God makes people happy if they are good, knowledgable, self-controlled, kind, and loving,no matter which God (if any) they believe in.

Yeah, those things will actually make a person HAPPY without believing in God. And I would like you to show someone who has those qualities that ISN'T happy, even in the face of adversity. Especially if they believe in God.

God did not design us to mope around our whole life. Have you EVER seen a happy angry person? Ever???

 

[No*s]

As is the answer to the question "how can an invisible pink unicorn be both invisible AND pink?" Perhaps there is no answer because the proposition doesn't make sense, and perhaps the proposition doesn't make sense because it isn't true.

Or maybe we simply cannot comprehend the mind of something that is so unlike us .

 

[robtex]

Or maybe we simply cannot comprehend the mind of something that is so unlike us .

comprehend or assess? Just assess to why there is life on earth instead of straight heaven. I mean many a religious man has assessed God before with a librarly of books, articles debate forums like these....give it a gander and without tyring to comprehend God's mind just assess the situation and motives from your vantage point.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Yeah, those things will actually make a person HAPPY without believing in God.

But not fulfilled?

And I would like you to show someone who has those qualities that ISN'T happy, even in the face of adversity. Especially if they believe in God.

Are you suggesting that all good, kind, knowledgable, loving people are happy and--conversely--that all unhappy people are unhappy because they are defficient in goodness, kindness, knowledge, and love? I have little doubt that many of the tsunami victims are neither happy nor defficient in these qualities.

Have you EVER seen a happy angry person? Ever???

Yes. During a hard-fought game of football against our hated arch rivals, with the testosterone and adrenaline pumping, my team mates and I felt both happy and angry. Why do you ask?

 

[lilithu]

As is the answer to the question "how can an invisible pink unicorn be both invisible AND pink?" Perhaps there is no answer because the proposition doesn't make sense, and perhaps the proposition doesn't make sense because it isn't true.

How can light be both a particle and a wave? Perhaps it's because it all depends on how we look at it and choose to describe it.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

You're right....saying "invisible pink unicorns exist" isn't false, it's just how I "choose to describe" invisible pink unicorns....wait...

Seriously though, good point lilithu, except for one difference: we can observe light behaving as both a particle and a wave. We can't observe people being punished/rewarded in the afterlife. It really is no more valid than claiming the existence of invisible pink unicorns....neither claim is supported by observation, and neither makes sense.

 

[lilithu]

Seriously though, good point lilithu, except for one difference: we can observe light behaving as both a particle and a wave. We can't observe people being punished/rewarded in the afterlife. It really is no more valid than claiming the existence of invisible pink unicorns....neither claim is supported by observation, and neither makes sense.

I personally don't believe that people are punished/rewarded in the afterlife, if there is an afterlife. I was more interested in the general idea that God (or most people's conceptions of God) is paradoxical. Your question about the simultaneous pinkness and invisibleness of your unicorn pal made me understand, finally, why you guys insist that she is pink. I now see that you are getting at the inherent paradox in our concept of God, rather just mocking us theists. And I was just pointing out that there are things that we all accept as paradoxical yet still true.

Of course, we cannot observe God behaving as both transcendant and immanent, both perfect and changing, etc. Well, I can, because I believe I see God in this very existence, and in my very being. My God is not an external object. But that's almost definitional. One can describe the same reality by saying that there is no God, that there is just this existence. And here we are, back at square one.

-------------------------

oooooh. this is post number 666 for me! :jiggy:

 

[Scuba Pete]

Spinks,

I not only suggest that, but I try to live my life in a way that celebrates that fact. Have I lived thru a tsunami? No, but I dare say that there ARE people over there that are CONSUMED with serving those around ARE the most fulfilled people there. That doesn't make them immune from physcial hurts and set backs.

Check out Clive's story: I survived the Tsunami for someone who went through that ordeal.

 

[No*s]

comprehend or assess? Just assess to why there is life on earth instead of straight heaven. I mean many a religious man has assessed God before with a librarly of books, articles debate forums like these....give it a gander and without tyring to comprehend God's mind just assess the situation and motives from your vantage point.

The purpose of the thread is to answer "Why would God wait?" That requires me to guess at the mind of God. Likewise, I cannot guess at motives.

If I assess the situation, though, I simply state my beliefs and what I have received. I simply say that we have one life to live, and then, there is the resurrection when God has fully revealed Himself. When that happens, if I am not right, I will experience God as Hell. I hope to have corrected the illness.

That's all I really know. Sure, I have more details based on what I believe to be revelation, but I can't guess further .

 

[SoulTYPE]

God may be waiting in the hope that we will all come to Him in our own time. Thus sending Jehova's words in this time of need.

 

[Scuba Pete]

You mean like this Soul?

II Peter 3:3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, "Where is this `coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

I think this is the PERFECT scripture for what you said.

 

[SoulTYPE]

It is, but I wasn't sure if I had a valid point or not.

 

[SoulTYPE]

If I see that I cannot frubal you one more time, lol..

 

[Mr Spinkles]

NetDoc-- Thank you for posting the link to that story--it was very powerful.

Are you suggesting that all good, kind, knowledgable, loving people are happy and--conversely--that all unhappy people are unhappy because they are defficient in goodness, kindness, knowledge, and love?

I not only suggest that, but I try to live my life in a way that celebrates that fact.

Well folks, there you have it. People are not unhappy because a tsunami destroyed their homes and livelihood, or because they watched a rival ethnic group systematically execute their friends and families, or because they live in fear of an oppressive tyrant, or because they are suffering from disease and famine; no, all the unhappy people in the world are unhappy because they aren't kind, knowledgable, or loving enough. :tsk:

This, to me, sounds like the remnant of an old doctrine intended to placate the masses as they were taken advantage of by the aristocracies, priests, and tyrants of old. "No, you're not unhappy because you're being oppressed, you're unhappy because you aren't good Christians," etc.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Its far older than that my friend.

Matthew 20:25. Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave-- 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

A close friend once told me, that if I went through life looking for people to serve me, that I would always be unfullfilled, since it just won't happen. BUT, if I set out to serve others instead that I would ALWAYS be fulfilled. He was right!

 

[lilithu]

Well folks, there you have it. People are not unhappy because a tsunami destroyed their homes and livelihood, or because they watched a rival ethnic group systematically execute their friends and families, or because they live in fear of an oppressive tyrant, or because they are suffering from disease and famine; no, all the unhappy people in the world are unhappy because they aren't kind, knowledgable, or loving enough. :tsk:

This, to me, sounds like the remnant of an old doctrine intended to placate the masses as they were taken advantage of by the aristocracies, priests, and tyrants of old. "No, you're not unhappy because you're being oppressed, you're unhappy because you aren't good Christians," etc.

Spinks, what do you say to the Buddhist idea that people are unhappy because they are attached to things in this world? Because they either want things to be different when they can't be or want things to stay the same when they can't.

NetDoc is using Christian language, which focuses primarily on love, but I think that his meaning is similar to this Buddhist idea. His faith in God allows him to be less attached to ideas of how the world should be and just focus on being the best that he can be.