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Why would a loving God make nature so brutal?

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Why did God design nature to operate this way? Why did he design animals to fight and kill each other? Why did he create disease? Why is there physical pain?
I tend to lean in the direction of Spinoza, Einstein, de Chardin, and Gandhi [especially the latter]i, whereas what we see in Nature is what we get, whether that be beautiful or ugly in our estimation.

IMO. we need to deal with What Is, and then hopefully try to leave our little place on Earth at least a bit better than it was when we were born. If everything was already perfect (whatever that is), then there would be nothing for us to do, plus then Earth really wouldn't be ours to begin with-- only God's.

Am I right with the above? I haven't a clue.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
I tend to lean in the direction of Spinoza, Einstein, de Chardin, and Gandhi [especially the latter]i, whereas what we see in Nature is what we get, whether that be beautiful or ugly in our estimation.

IMO. we need to deal with What Is, and then hopefully try to leave our little place on Earth at least a bit better than it was when we were born. If everything was already perfect (whatever that is), then there would be nothing for us to do, plus then Earth really wouldn't be ours to begin with-- only God's.

Am I right with the above? I haven't a clue.


Not that I disagree with you, but once again "perfect" is highly subjective. Whose "perfect" do we embrace?
 

izzy88

Active Member
mmmmm…..no

you are all over the place with this

try expressing Genesis as a stand alone item
While I'm certainly not defending the theory being presented by KenS, taking any book of the Bible as a stand alone story is a mistake; they're all interdependent on each other, at least in order to be understood in the way that the Church teaches is correct. The books were all written by different people at different times, but there is a singular narrative running through them all that denotes their true meaning.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
While I'm certainly not defending the theory being presented by KenS, taking any book of the Bible as a stand alone story is a mistake; they're all interdependent on each other, at least in order to be understood in the way that the Church teaches is correct. The books were all written by different people at different times, but there is a singular narrative running through them all that denotes their true meaning.
I have been posting my perspective on Genesis for years

I get rebuttal now and then
but really.....the story line makes sense to me.....as is
 

izzy88

Active Member
I have been posting my perspective on Genesis for years

I get rebuttal now and then
but really.....the story line makes sense to me.....as is
That's fine; I was simply sharing the Church's view because I've found it to be true. While we can take any book of the Bible and make sense of it as is, that doesn't mean that the sense we're making of it is it's true or full sense.

For a modern example, I can watch an individual Marvel movie and understand the main points of its plot, but if I haven't seen the rest of the Marvel movies I'm going to be missing out on what it means within the full context.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
That's fine; I was simply sharing the Church's view because I've found it to be true. While we can take any book of the Bible and make sense of it as is, that doesn't mean that the sense we're making of it is it's true or full sense.

For a modern example, I can watch an individual Marvel movie and understand the main points of its plot, but if I haven't seen the rest of the Marvel movies I'm going to be missing out on what it means within the full context.
that approach leaves sooooo many generations in the dark

what?......Genesis is a mystery to the man that scribed it?

and generation s are with no understanding until some scribe in later decades pens another ?

I think not
 

izzy88

Active Member
that approach leaves sooooo many generations in the dark

what?......Genesis is a mystery to the man that scribed it?

and generation s are with no understanding until some scribe in later decades pens another ?

I think not
To use the Marvel movie example again: when I first watched Iron Man, I could understand and enjoy it for what it was. I wasn't missing out on anything because the other movies didn't exist yet. And even if someone were to watch Iron Man today outside of the full context of the rest of the Marvel movies, they could still get the same understanding and enjoyment out of it that I did - they would simply be missing out on the fuller context.

It is a self contained story that exists within the context of a larger story. You can understand the self contained story on its own, but the new stories which are continuations of it and build upon it have retroactively added even greater meaning to it.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
To use the Marvel movie example again: when I first watched Iron Man, I could understand and enjoy it for what it was. I wasn't missing out on anything because the other movies didn't exist yet. And even if someone were to watch Iron Man today outside of the full context of the rest of the Marvel movies, they could still get the same understanding and enjoyment out of it that I did - they would simply be missing out on the fuller context.

It is a self contained story that exists within the context of a larger story. You can understand the self contained story on its own, but the new stories which are continuations of it and build upon it have retroactively added even greater meaning to it.
I get that....but....
Genesis IS a stand alone book
and your method of support.....clipping from later works
didn't help
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
That's basically the answer that most apologists give. God can do whatever he wants. If you don't like it, tough luck because good is whatever God does by definition.

Well, to their credit, it's an internally consistent and logical view of things if you accept their premise.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why did God design nature to operate this way? Why did he design animals to fight and kill each other? Why did he create disease? Why is there physical pain?

How did you rule out that there is no god involved? Your question is loaded and assumes the existence of a god not in evidence.

This problem and many more resolve themselves immediately if one takes a naturalistic view on reality. Why does nature give us predators and carnivores? Why wouldn't it?

But today, we're about as certain as we can be that life was around long before mankind appeared, and it was just as brutal before we showed up as it is now. So the Original Sin explanation really doesn't cut it, anymore. We didn't create this "fallen" world through our sin, we were born into a fallen world - it was fallen from the very beginning.

Without original sin, there is no Christianity. Original sin requires that there be two first human beings created by a god. As paradoxical as it may seem, there never was a first human being, just as there was no (natural) first moment of daylight today.

As I suggested, all of this simplifies if you remove the creationist god and substitute blind laws of nature.

you've ceased talking about God, who is omnipotent by definition.

Your definition, and an arbitrary one at that. My definition of a god is any sentient creature able to create universes and laws of nature. There is no other requirement - not goodness, not omnipotence, and not omniscience.

If a God who is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, etc. created the world, then it's necessarily implied that the world he created is the way he wants it to be. But that still does not answer why.

Man, I have no idea how you're still missing the point, but I give up trying to explain it to you.

He answered you. This god's reasons would be that that is what it preferred. There is nothing more to say.

Interesting. So, the brutality of nature is all for us, for our benefit, to help us grow and learn?

What else can a theist that believes in an omnisicient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent god say about a world full of what appears to be senseless suffering? Why is humanity under siege from a virus in a world run by a good god? Must be good for us.

But this is the problem with defining reality from one's imagination, and then trying to fit reason and empirical evidence to fit it rather than going in the opposite direction - beginning with observation and applying reason to come to conclusions. The latter produces science and useful knowledge.

The former forces you to engage in intellectual and moral gymnastics to try to force the facts to fit the faith-based belief, which is virtually always wrong. If faith-based thinkers ever guess correctly, such as embracing evolution rather that creationism on a guess rather than by reviewing what is known from science, his life will go easier than if he guesses wrong. In the first case, the evidence and reason will consistently support him.

In the latter case - guessing wrong - one will be forced to defend a wrong idea against the evidence that he is wrong for as long as he holds this idea. You have guessed that there is a good god, and now you're perplexed bout why a good god would want these things. But "it wouldn't" isn't an option any longer, so you must travail or why it did.

Much easier to account for reality without gods. None of our scientific theories require one, nor could any of them be improved in terms of its predictive and explanatory. Same thing if you stick two or three gods in there. They still don't have a job.

an imperfect world really provides the environment for us to grow

Why would we need to grow in a universe created by an tri-omni god? We could be born complete if that god so desired.

But what we see over and over again is that this god perfectly imitates a non-existent god. It always seem to choose what would perforce be the case in a godless universe. Such a god might have written a perfect holy book that no man could have written, or one replete with contradiction, ambiguities, failed prophesies, unkept promises, moral and intellectual errors attributed to a perfect god, and errors in history and science. In a godless universe, only the latter would be possible.

A universe created by a god might or might not have had regular physical laws, but a godless universe would require them, which, once again, is what we find. If this god exists, it chose to imitate the non-existent god again.

A universe with a god might have that god manifest directly or not, but in a godless universe, there can be no such manifestations. Once again, if this god exists, it chose to imitate the non-existent god again.

A universe with a god might have had all life appear in its present form or had it evolve, but a godless universe needs naturalistic methods like biological evolution. And of course, yet again, that's what we find.

In a universe with an interventionalist god that answers prayer and performs miracles, we might or might not see amputees restored to normal, but in a godless universe, the amputated limb never reappears. Check. That's our universe as well.

And on it goes. This god always chooses exactly the same choice that would be imposed on a godless universe, which is exactly what we would expect if there is no interventionalist god.

The world is full of these kinds of situations, so we can generalize to this form: If condition 1 is the case, we might find Situation A or Situation B as a result, but if Condition 2 is the case, only Situation B will be seen

Consider a coin. If it is a fair coin (Condition 1), flipping it can equally well result in heads (Situation A) or tails (Situation B), but if it is loaded (Condition 2), it will only come up only one of these two ways - say tails (Situation B). After awhile, say 100 flips, or 10,000, all tails, it is safe to assume that the coin is loaded even if there is a minute possibility that the coin is a fair coin.

This is how I view these god arguments, each of which explains to us why this god seems to do nothing. We are told he gives us free will and won't intervene in our lives so that we can learn helpful lessons, just as in a godless universe. Neither of those is as good as their opposites. My children would not have had free will were it in my power to upload integrity, courage, etc.. into them at birth. They would only want to do good and be upright. Free will is obviously a threat in a universe where it can get you damned.

We are not to tempt Him by requesting magic, because you won't get it and you'll just anger Him.

Your prayers will be answered, but you'll get a no as often as those that don't pray.

On it goes.

Or, just drop the god belief, and things make more sense.

"When the philosopher's argument becomes tedious, complicated, and opaque, it is usually a sign that he is attempting to prove as true to the intellect what is plainly false to common sense・- Edward Abbey
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...Why did God design nature to operate this way? Why did he design animals to fight and kill each other? Why did he create disease? Why is there physical pain?...

I don’t think we have enough evidence that things have always been like this. I believe everything was good, when God created it, but then God was rejected and people wanted to know evil, and were expelled to this place where we can experience what evil means.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I'm still relatively new to theism, and while I've found some very intelligent and logical answers to many of the questions I've had, this is one issue I don't see brought up much, and it's one I've yet to find a real answer for.

The Problem of Evil I have no issue reconciling; that's not what I'm asking about. If God is good and men are free, then it means we're free to choose to go against God and therefore against the good - which is evil.

God, being good, would have made all creation good, and everything that exists is doing exactly what God designed it to do because it cannot choose to do otherwise. But man is free like the rest of nature isn't, and so we can choose to go against nature - against God.

The issue I have is that when we look at nature, we may not find evil, but we find a whole lot of pain and suffering and death. It really is a dog eat dog world, survival of the fittest; animals rip apart other animals with their teeth and claws, they eat each other alive. Then you've got disease and illness, microbes and parasites which exist only to cause pain and suffering to other creatures.

From what I've read, the classic explanation given by the Christian Church is Original Sin. In Genesis, the disobedience of Adam and Eve not only gets them kicked out of paradise, but it says that their act of defiance is what brought death and suffering into the world - not just for themselves.

But today, we're about as certain as we can be that life was around long before mankind appeared, and it was just as brutal before we showed up as it is now. So the Original Sin explanation really doesn't cut it, anymore. We didn't create this "fallen" world through our sin, we were born into a fallen world - it was fallen from the very beginning.

Why?

Why did God design nature to operate this way? Why did he design animals to fight and kill each other? Why did he create disease? Why is there physical pain?

If anyone knows of any theological explanations for this problem, I'd love for you to share them. Otherwise I figure this should at least make for a good discussion topic.


Pain and suffering is a consequence of doing it wrong. So it's our actions and not nature or nature's design which causes pain and suffering. Adam and Eve open the door for wrong actions but it is our continued wrong actions that cause pain and suffering to remain.

You want to stop suffering then stop doing the wrong thing. If anyone of us acts wrong, we all end up paying the price since we all live in this world together. So it requires all of us to stop doing the wrong things in order to eliminate suffering. Being conscious means we get to choose our actions. You can maybe blame God for giving us the ability to choose for ourself but then you can't blame God for what we choose.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
I don’t think we have enough evidence that things have always been like this. I believe everything was good, when God created it, but then God was rejected and people wanted to know evil, and were expelled to this place where we can experience what evil means.
That's similar to some Gnostic theologies, except the place we were expelled from was a spiritual realm and we were punished by being given bodies of flesh and to toil in this prison-like realm until we gain the knowledge of salvation and return to God.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm still relatively new to theism, and while I've found some very intelligent and logical answers to many of the questions I've had, this is one issue I don't see brought up much, and it's one I've yet to find a real answer for.

The Problem of Evil I have no issue reconciling; that's not what I'm asking about. If God is good and men are free, then it means we're free to choose to go against God and therefore against the good - which is evil.

God, being good, would have made all creation good, and everything that exists is doing exactly what God designed it to do because it cannot choose to do otherwise. But man is free like the rest of nature isn't, and so we can choose to go against nature - against God.

The issue I have is that when we look at nature, we may not find evil, but we find a whole lot of pain and suffering and death. It really is a dog eat dog world, survival of the fittest; animals rip apart other animals with their teeth and claws, they eat each other alive. Then you've got disease and illness, microbes and parasites which exist only to cause pain and suffering to other creatures.

From what I've read, the classic explanation given by the Christian Church is Original Sin. In Genesis, the disobedience of Adam and Eve not only gets them kicked out of paradise, but it says that their act of defiance is what brought death and suffering into the world - not just for themselves.

But today, we're about as certain as we can be that life was around long before mankind appeared, and it was just as brutal before we showed up as it is now. So the Original Sin explanation really doesn't cut it, anymore. We didn't create this "fallen" world through our sin, we were born into a fallen world - it was fallen from the very beginning.

Why?

Why did God design nature to operate this way? Why did he design animals to fight and kill each other? Why did he create disease? Why is there physical pain?

If anyone knows of any theological explanations for this problem, I'd love for you to share them. Otherwise I figure this should at least make for a good discussion topic.
Another way of looking at this is that evil is not part of God's creation at all and is something pre-existing, with God creating in the midst of it sort of like putting a light into a dark room. If you presume that God creates our physical world with all of its defects then its up to you to figure out why God would include those defects. I'm not telling you how you should look at it but that your assumptions determine your course.

Since I"m not part of any liturgical church I'm not sure how they view these things, but I do remember Jesus prayer is for God's will to be done on Earth as it (already is) done in heaven.
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
further anecdotal story from the book of Enoch:
XXX:13,14)
13: And I appointed him a name, from the four component parts, from East, from West, from South, from North, and I appointed for him four special stars, and I called his name Adam, and showed him the two ways, the light and the darkness, and I told him:
14: 'This is Good, and that is Bad,' that I should learn whether he has love towards me, or hatred, that it be clear which in his race love me.
Which presents an answer to this question, from this particular storyteller.

-thought it was related.
 

izzy88

Active Member
Your question is loaded and assumes the existence of a god

Of course it does; you're implying that any time we want to examine and discuss theology, we must first prove that God exists, which is ridiculous.

This problem and many more resolve themselves immediately if one takes a naturalistic view on reality.

Yes, and all problems resolve themselves if one ends one's own life; that doesn't mean it should be our default action whenever a problem pops up.

Without original sin, there is no Christianity.

I never said there's no original sin, I said that original sin doesn't account for the brutality of nature.

As paradoxical as it may seem, there never was a first human being, just as there was no (natural) first moment of daylight today.

Christian theology says that there was, and this is perfectly reconcilable with evolution if you believe God simply ensouled creatures which already existed through evolution.

Your definition, and an arbitrary one at that.

There's nothing arbitrary about the classical definition of God, and when someone uses the term capitalized this is the definition you should assume they're using.

My definition of a god is any sentient creature able to create universes and laws of nature. There is no other requirement - not goodness, not omnipotence, and not omniscience.

Good for you. Have fun working out a coherent theology based on that.

He answered you. This god's reasons would be that that is what it preferred. There is nothing more to say.

What is so difficult to grasp about my question?
Yes, it is assumed that God exists.
Yes, it is assumed that God desired nature to be the way that he created it.
The question I'm asking is why he desired it to be so?

If you tell me you bought a grey shirt, and I ask you why, are you going to say "because I wanted to buy a grey shirt"? A person who responded to questions in such a way would be insufferable, because it's implied in the question that you wanted to - the question is why you wanted to.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
That's a bit stupid. As you mentionned in your introduction, the brutality of nature started well before the arrival of humans in the cosmic scene. Why was it necessary for the billions of years before when there was nobody to "learn" from that brutality? It's not like a "brutality switch" was activated after our arrival on the scene. It existed for far, far longer than we have. That sounds like cop-out, a feel good excuse. It's not like brutality is necessary to learn things or for that matter that a creator deity couldn't create people with the ability to understand what can only be understood through brutality from the get go. Thus, it returns back to the simplest proposal the world is brutal because the deity enjoys displays of brutality (perhapse for a wide variety of reasons).

Each of us made nature brutal. Those who feel lost because of it look for a loving God. Without people, god does nothing.


A
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
I'm still relatively new to theism, and while I've found some very intelligent and logical answers to many of the questions I've had, this is one issue I don't see brought up much, and it's one I've yet to find a real answer for.

The Problem of Evil I have no issue reconciling; that's not what I'm asking about. If God is good and men are free, then it means we're free to choose to go against God and therefore against the good - which is evil.

God, being good, would have made all creation good, and everything that exists is doing exactly what God designed it to do because it cannot choose to do otherwise. But man is free like the rest of nature isn't, and so we can choose to go against nature - against God.

The issue I have is that when we look at nature, we may not find evil, but we find a whole lot of pain and suffering and death. It really is a dog eat dog world, survival of the fittest; animals rip apart other animals with their teeth and claws, they eat each other alive. Then you've got disease and illness, microbes and parasites which exist only to cause pain and suffering to other creatures.

From what I've read, the classic explanation given by the Christian Church is Original Sin. In Genesis, the disobedience of Adam and Eve not only gets them kicked out of paradise, but it says that their act of defiance is what brought death and suffering into the world - not just for themselves.

But today, we're about as certain as we can be that life was around long before mankind appeared, and it was just as brutal before we showed up as it is now. So the Original Sin explanation really doesn't cut it, anymore. We didn't create this "fallen" world through our sin, we were born into a fallen world - it was fallen from the very beginning.

Why?

Why did God design nature to operate this way? Why did he design animals to fight and kill each other? Why did he create disease? Why is there physical pain?

If anyone knows of any theological explanations for this problem, I'd love for you to share them. Otherwise I figure this should at least make for a good discussion topic.

He would best make nature deadly if He meant for this life here in these bodies to be a temporary place where people choose whether to love or not.

Then after this temporary choosing-life, He'd be able to transition everyone to what comes next -- according to whether or not they chose to love others (meaning not just a selected friend or 2, but even all the people they meet....).

Under that situation, then a nature that constantly reminds us we are in a temporary life here is very helpful!

Example:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” a 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Romans 2 NIV


You can see from that why we would need Someone to help redeem us from our wrongdoing!

Mark 2:17 On hearing this, Jesus told them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

He came to help those of us humble enough to admit the truth of our real behavior, and turn to Him.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
We evidently did not since nature was brutal well before the arrival of the first humans. Parasites, predation, disease, natural disaster, agony, etc. all predates humanity.

The only thing I would disagree with here is that before man appeared and put a name on it 'brutality' didn't exist; it was just nature being natural.
 
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