Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

[Harel13]

Not all Jewish interpretations of Genesis 3:5 disagree with the Christian interpretations.

ALL of them do, in fact, because there's a ginormous difference between Ha'Satan in Judaism and Christianity's Lucifer/Satan/the devil, as we've already established many posts ago. there's also a ginormous difference between the two religions' view of the consequence of that sin. Any Jewish interpretation of the chapter has nothing to do with Christian interpretations of the chapter.

 

[Skywalker]

I'm sorry, but they are. I already explained why this is so. When you differentiate between ethnic Jews and faithful Jews, and saying that the faithful Jews are those that believe in Jesus, i.e., Christians, that's replacement theology and is antisemitic, whether the ethnic Jews happen to be persecuting the Christians or not.

Saying that Gentiles are spiritual Jews is replacement theology and it's a false interpretation of the New Testament. What is spiritual Israel? | GotQuestions.org

Replacement theology, on the other hand, uses the concept of a “spiritual Israel” differently. Replacement theology essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan and that the many promises God made to Israel are fulfilled in the Church instead—Old Testament prophecies are allegorized in order to make them applicable to the church. Replacement theology presents major theological problems, because Scripture says that God has not forgotten or changed His promises to Israel (see Romans 11:1–2, 11, 23, 26, 29). Teaching that promotes a “spiritual Israel,” in the sense that the Church is the focus of God’s prophetic promises for Israel, is not biblically valid.

 

[Rival]

no, no... your source is wrong.

Sforno believes the serpent is figuratively Satan. I.e., he represents Satan as the yezter hara. Not sure this is exactly what Skywalker means tho.

 

[Harel13]

Saying that Gentiles are spiritual Jews is replacement theology and it's a false interpretation of the New Testament. What is spiritual Israel? | GotQuestions.org

So you won't quote that article anymore, right?

 

[Harel13]

Sforno believes the serpent is figuratively Satan. I.e., he represents Satan as the yezter hara. Not sure this is exactly what Skywalker means tho.

Can't be. Our Satan is a good angel following God's will. His Satan is pure evil (and, apparently, intellectually-challenged) and rebelling against god.

 

[Skywalker]

True, I said that. How does that explain why you changed from "as gods" to "as God"? (i.e., I used "as gods" because that's what appears in the version of the verse you brought).

Very true. I reject the extra-biblical tradition you're presenting.

I used different terminology to make what I said less confusing, because you used a different word.

Extra biblical traditions are interpretations-some are right, some are wrong. I believe that interpretations that reject the divinity of the Messiah are not scriptural. Does the Bible teach that there would be two comings of the Messiah? | GotQuestions.org

It was only after the resurrection that the disciples began to understand what Jesus had been telling them (John 2:22). Even after the resurrection they did not understand about the second coming because they asked Him if now was the time that He would restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6). Jesus told them that they should not be concerned about the timing of the coming kingdom, but they should take the gospel to the whole world (Acts 1:8). Then He was taken up from them into heaven, and two angels came to them and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven” (Acts 1:11). Here we finally have a clear indication that there will be a second coming after an undisclosed time period.

The Old Testament had several mysteries regarding the Messiah: would He be a divine figure or a human descendant of David? The New Testament gives the answer—both, because of the Incarnation. Would the Messiah be cut off or reign forever? The New Testament gives the answer—both, because of the Resurrection. Would the Messiah come to suffer or to reign? The New Testament once again gives the answer—both, because He would come twice.

 

[Skywalker]

no, no... your source is wrong.

I quoted Jewish sources that agree with Christian interpretations of the scriptures. Do religious Jews generally believe the serpent of Garden of Eden was Satan?

Among the classical Torah commentators, there are those that interpret that whole Garden of Eden story as being literal historical fact, while others interpret it allegorically.

The main authority who treats it as allegory is Rambam in Moreh Nevuchim (Volume 2, Chapter 30), and according to his interpretation, the snake represents a person's "appetitive faculty" (the part of the Aristotelian model of the psych that controls a person's emotions and desires).

Those that interpret the story literally, though, differ in how they explain the talking snake:

• The snake from creation was an intelligent animal that talked, thought, and walked upright like a human. Only after its sin was it downgraded to the level of all the other animals (or perhaps below the level of most animals). [See Ibn Ezra (Bereshis 3:1).]
• The snake is actually the Torah's way of referring to Satan. (As @avi noted, the Satan is traditionally believed as being the evil inclination and/or the angel of death.) In this case, either there was no actual snake at all, or the Satan appeared in the form of a snake. [R' Saadia Gaon brought in Ibn Ezra.]

 

[Harel13]

I used different terminology to make what I said less confusing, because you used a different word.

I didn't use a different word. I used what was written in the version of the bible you were quoting from.

Extra biblical traditions are interpretations-some are right, some are wrong. I believe that interpretations that reject the divinity of the Messiah are not scriptural. Does the Bible teach that there would be two comings of the Messiah? | GotQuestions.org

And I believe that there's no evidence that the snake is Lucifer. Glad we've sorted that out.

 

[Rival]

Can't be. Our Satan is a good angel following God's will. His Satan is pure evil (and, apparently, intellectually-challenged) and rebelling against god.

Which is weird, because according to Christian theology Satan is ruler of this world, so he can't be that devastatingly thick.....

 

[Skywalker]

ALL of them do, in fact, because there's a ginormous difference between Ha'Satan in Judaism and Christianity's Lucifer/Satan/the devil, as we've already established many posts ago. there's also a ginormous difference between the two religions' view of the consequence of that sin. Any Jewish interpretation of the chapter has nothing to do with Christian interpretations of the chapter.

The Old Testament agrees with Christian belief that Satan is a fallen angel. The Old Testament mentions Satan tempting and afflicting people. 3. Satan’s Part in God’s Perfect Plan | Bible.org

(1) The Book of Job introduces Satan as an adversary, in the context of suffering, early in the history of mankind. While Job is not among the very first books of the Bible, many scholars believe Job lived during the patriarchal times, before Moses. While Satan may not be prominent in the Old Testament as a whole, he is clearly introduced early on as God’s enemy and man’s adversary.

(2) Satan is counted among the “sons of God” and is thus still included among the angels.

(3) Satan has freedom to go about the earth and even has access to heaven and the throne of God.

(4) Satan acknowledges God’s authority, but he does not respect it or fully submit to it. Satan knows he cannot afflict Job without God’s permission. He acknowledges that for him to afflict Job is ultimately for God to afflict him (Job 1:11; 2:5).

(5) Satan is arrogant toward God. Satan’s retort, “Skin for skin,” in verse 4 of chapter 2 may not be fully understood, but the attitude behind it is obvious. Satan shows no respect for God.

 

[Skywalker]

So you won't quote that article anymore, right?

I don't think gotquestions.org agrees with replacement theology, I think that article was a reference to the people who were persecuting Christians, not Jewish people who don't believe in Jesus, but I won''t mention that article again if you associate it with replacement theology.

 

[Skywalker]

I didn't use a different word. I used what was written in the version of the bible you were quoting from.

And I believe that there's no evidence that the snake is Lucifer. Glad we've sorted that out.

I don't think the King James Bible is perfect.

The snake is the devil, and Lucifer is the devil. Is Lucifer Satan? Does the fall of Lucifer describe Satan? | GotQuestions.org

Answer: There is no verse in the Bible that says, “Lucifer is Satan,” but an examination of several passages reveals that Lucifer can be none other than Satan. The fall of Lucifer described in Isaiah 14:12 is likely the same that Jesus referred to in Luke 10:18: "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” A similar fall is depicted in Ezekiel 28.

Isaiah 14:12–18 describes the fall from heaven of one called “Lucifer,” a name that means “morning star,” “son of the dawn,” “Day Star / Daystar,” or “shining star.” The description of the one referred to shows us it can be none other than Satan. We know from Jesus’ own words in Luke 10 that Satan fell from heaven. So, when Isaiah refers to Lucifer (In Hebrew, helel) being cast down to earth (Isaiah 14:12), it can be none other than Satan. The reason for his fall is found in verses 13 and 14: “You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’” This has always been Satan’s desire—to be God—and it is the very temptation he used in the garden of Eden to get Eve to disobey God: “You shall be as God” (Genesis 3:5).

 

[Rival]

The Old Testament agrees with Christian belief that Satan is a fallen angel. The Old Testament mentions Satan tempting and afflicting people. 3. Satan’s Part in God’s Perfect Plan | Bible.org

Have you read the Book of Job? Satan first needs G-d's permission to do what he needs to do. G-d and Satan are working together here, not opposite.

 

[Skywalker]

Which is weird, because according to Christian theology Satan is ruler of this world, so he can't be that devastatingly thick.....

2 Corinthians 4:4

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

1 John 5:19

And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

 

[dybmh]

I quoted Jewish sources that agree with Christian interpretations of the scriptures.

No. It's misquoting. Here's a link to Ibn Ezra's comments on Gen 3:1 - link
Ibn Ezra's comments do not endorse the fallen angel narrative. Your source is wrong.

 

[Skywalker]

Have you read the Book of Job? Satan first needs G-d's permission to do what he needs to do. G-d and Satan are working together here, not opposite.

Satan lost his position as the annointed cherub but he still has access to Heaven. Does Satan still have access to Heaven? Why does God allow Satan to enter Heaven, as recorded in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

Satan was originally one of God’s holy angels, but he rebelled against God and was cast out of heaven (Luke 10:18). That was only the first stage of his judgment. Satan’s kingdom was vanquished at the cross (John 12:31–32). Later, he will be bound in the abyss for one thousand years (Revelation 20:1–3) and then will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity (Revelation 20:10).

Until his final judgment, Satan is "the prince of this world" (John 14:30), but it seems that he still has restricted access to the heavenly realms. In Job 1:6, Satan stands in the presence of God. There is a similar situation in 2 Chronicles 18:18–21 involving a "lying spirit."

 

[Skywalker]

No. It's misquoting. Here's a link to Ibn Ezra's comments on Gen 3:1 - link
Ibn Ezra's comments do not endorse the fallen angel narrative. Your source is wrong.

Ibn Ezra's exegesis don't endorse the belief that Satan is a fallen angel (which doesn't mean its not in the scriptures), but they endorse beliefs that were not mentioned directly early on, because the scriptures have progressive revelation. Does the Bible teach that there would be two comings of the Messiah? | GotQuestions.org

Satan was originally one of God’s holy angels, but he rebelled against God and was cast out of heaven (Luke 10:18). That was only the first stage of his judgment. Satan’s kingdom was vanquished at the cross (John 12:31–32). Later, he will be bound in the abyss for one thousand years (Revelation 20:1–3) and then will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity (Revelation 20:10).

Until his final judgment, Satan is "the prince of this world" (John 14:30), but it seems that he still has restricted access to the heavenly realms. In Job 1:6, Satan stands in the presence of God. There is a similar situation in 2 Chronicles 18:18–21 involving a "lying spirit."

 

[Harel13]

The Old Testament agrees with Christian belief that Satan is a fallen angel. The Old Testament mentions Satan tempting and afflicting people. 3. Satan’s Part in God’s Perfect Plan | Bible.org

You realize that your evidence for Satan being fallen is that he did bad things, right? That would make the angels who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah also evil - they killed so many people!

 

[Harel13]

The snake is the devil, and Lucifer is the devil. Is Lucifer Satan? Does the fall of Lucifer describe Satan? | GotQuestions.org

You say that, but have no biblical evidence to attest to that. And when I say biblical, I mean only the Tanach.

 

[Skywalker]

You realize that your evidence for Satan being fallen is that he did bad things, right? That would make the angels who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah also evil - they killed so many people!

God never sent Satan to afflict Job. 1 Chronicles 21:15 says And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.