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Featured Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Ehav4Ever, Mar 14, 2021.

  1. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Given that the various church councils were the ones who decided what material went into the New Testament and what information did not go into it – this alone provides a very critical reason why Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews are required by Hashem/Torah to ignore such a text due to its historical and theological content and the lack of some specific requirements given by Hashem to Am Yisrael.

    It further shows, based on how the early Christian Church chose to structure the text, that it was not meant for Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews. I.e. if Christians like it and accept it is not my place to judge that BUT Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews have mitzvoth to avoid it. The historical and theological information and claims found in the Greek derived NT texts from start to finish makes it suspect and thus a Torath Mosheh Jew and Orthodox Jew consider it (פסול) and (עבודה זרה) for us.

    That being said, you may ask what structure and content would have given a Torath Mosheh Jew, at any time in history, a reason to even consider reading it? The answer to that is simple and thus what follows is a less problematic structure and content that would have made more sense to construct from a Jewish perspective.
    1. The Gospel of Jesus "written in Hebrew/Aramaic by Jesus himself" containing:
      • A description of when Jesus wrote the text and for what purpose.
      • An autobiography of Jesus’s early life including a clear description of his family and verifiable names of who he learned Hebrew, Torah, and Halakha from.
      • A description of why Torath Mosheh Jews should listen to Jesus, his teachings, and his students. I.e. Jesus’s description of how listening to him and reading his gospel, and those of his students, are included in mitzvoth from the Torah.
      • A mitzvah by mitzvah detail of each of the 613 mitzvoth of the Torah and the practical application of each one in in all situations.
      • A dictionary of ancient Hebrew words, weights, and measurements. For example, what is Hashem’s definition of (כזית).
      • A review of Jesus’s Torah scroll that he was required to transcribe in his lifetime and who would be preserving it into the future. This would include his analysis of writing on (גוויל) vs. (קלף).
      • An identification of all the individuals who would be leading his Jewish followers in the future and what texts written about him were accetable.
      • A description of how Jesus got married, the traditions, and how his Jewish followers were to marry and raise their children. (עורך חיים ותלמוד תורה שלו)
      • A detailed description of future Christian movements that would not represent his teachings.
      • Jesus’s description of how the universe/reality works. I.e. Jesus’s teachings on astrobiology, biology, chemistry, physics, thermodynamics, cosmology, history, evolution, etc.
      • Lastly, Jesus’s specific advice for how Torath Mosheh Jews should survive/escape the remainder of the Roman occupation, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Mamluks, that Nazis, and western assimilation.
    2. The Gospels of all 12 of Jesus’s Jewish disciples, written in Hebrew/Aramaic, covering the following topics:
      • Their family history (father’s name and grandfather’s name as well as the tribe they came from) also who they married and the names of their students.
      • The people they learned Torah from before Jesus.
      • The teachings that Jesus taught them on all of the 613 mitzvoth.
      • Their formula for surviving the Roman occupation.
      • A description of how they tie their tzitzith and which tefillin type they used. I.e. (רש"י \ רמב"ם) vs. (רבנו תם).
      • A description of the Torah scroll that Jesus was required to write and also how they made copies of it, as they were required to do by Jewish law.
      • Their commentary on the gospel of Jesus.
      • All of the writings of Paul and Revelations would not be included such a text.
    If the NT had been structured, completely and not partially, in the above way then maybe it would be something that Torath Mosheh Jews would consider reading and investigating. YET, because it was not written in the above format Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews have a mitzvah from the Torah to ignore it.

    Now I know that some Christians will feel like none of this matters and for someone who is not a Torath Mosheh Jew or an Orthodox Jew it may be fine that it doesn't matter for them, YET, it is a requirement for Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews to consider such a matter. Essentially, the NT authors and compilers had only one chance to get it right with Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews and ....... we all know what the results are. ;)

    I hope that helps.
     
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  2. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Very informative... thank you.

    As a Christian, you are right, it really doesn't matter to me.

    In as much as the disciples preached from the TaNaKh, basically everything is already contained in the scriptures. The Jews from Berea studied the scriptures to confirm that Jesus fulfilled the scriptures without the NT.

    Additionally, the world didn't speak Hebrew. The were more likely to speak Greek, thanks to Alexander the Great, so we are happy to have both the Septuagint and NT is said language.
     
  3. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    No problem.

    On this point, I have a few questions.
    1. Historically, what happened to the Jews of Beroea that you mentioned?
    2. What were the names of some of their leaders or notable members?
    3. Are there any Christians today who descend from the Jews you say were in Beroea, and beleived the NT. Are still identifiable as being Jewish today?
    4. Did the Jews of Beroea that you mention use the exact same NT that is in use by Christians today?
      • If not what NT texts did they read in the past and accept?
    5. Which type of modern Christianity is best representing what the Jews of Berea you mentioned were about?
    6. Besides the NT text of acts, are there any accounts from Beroea that the Jews there beleived in Jesus as you say they did?
    Thanks.
     
    #3 Ehav4Ever, Mar 14, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2021
  4. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Great questions that will take time to answer... will address after thought and study
     
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  5. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting idea. If that is true, then I don’t see how they can accept the OT, it doesn’t seem to be any better.
     
  6. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    You 100% are right. I avoid any book that has the title "Old Testament" on the front of it or inside of it.

    I go by texts that look like the below.

    upload_2021-3-14_14-53-53.png




    upload_2021-3-14_14-55-37.png
     
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  7. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Further to your point, if I open up a book that makes particular claims I don't see something that looks like the below I ignore it.

    upload_2021-3-14_14-58-1.png

    upload_2021-3-14_15-1-5.png
     
  8. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    I agree with your contention. Of course you could dismiss my contention because I am not a Christian.

    Yet, I disagree with something. Why would the disciples or Jesus himself need to write the Torah, or a description o the "Torah Scroll"? Im sorry I cannot understand why Jesus was "required to write".

    Could you please be kind enough to elaborate?
     
  9. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Greetings. The reason is because one of the 613 mitzvoth of the Hebrew Torah is that every Jewish man is required to transcribe, by hand, a Torah Scroll for himself from a kosher Torah scroll. If he himself cannot do it for himself then he is required to commission one to be transcribed for him - what some Jewish men do (modernly) is to learn how to transcribe at least the last letters or the last word of the Torah. There are very strict rules of accuracy for transcribing a Torah scroll and mistakes make them invalid for public use. Also, modernly the purchase of a kosher Humash satifies this requirement, yet 2,000 years ago Torah scholars would have done it themselves at leas once.

    Another one of the 613 mitzvoth of the Hebrew Torah is that Jewish kings are required to transcribe two Torah scrolls for themselves. One for them to keep in their place of Torah study and the 2nd they were required to carry with them at all times except for when they were in the bathroom, shower, or in bed.

    upload_2021-3-14_16-34-48.png
     
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  10. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Why all the conditions? Are these what the Messiah is said to do in the Tanakh?
     
  11. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Oh I see. Now I understand what you meant. Thank you so much. Also you must forgive my ignorance in the Jewish faith. It is too vast for me.

    Is there any evidence that this same belief that the scroll of the Torah has to be transcribed by men so accurately existed in the 1st century judaiya?
     
  12. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    And where does this leave the 'oral tradition' of the Torah which is as I understand, the belief of Pharisaic Judaism?
     
  13. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Im sorry brother. I am not an expert in the Jewish theology so I am unable to sufficiently answer you. Yet, I would like to request you to ask this in this thread and I would be honoured to read the response.
     
  14. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    These are conditions that anyone making a claim to be a Torah based leader of the Israeli/Jewish people/nation is required in the Torah to be able to meet. All ancient and modern Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jewish leaders have been able to meet these types of standards/conditions.

    For example, the book of Ruth exists due to a challenge that was made against Dawith ben-Yishai (who you would call king David). This is also pointed out in the Aramaic translation of the book of Ruth.

    Note: The English word "messiah" means to Christians something different than what the Jews mean "IF" we use the English word "messiah."

    The two videos below may help with that last point.



     
  15. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    The following may help with your question.

     
  16. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    You make a valid point. While the designations OT and NT are used primarily for expediency, it may and does leave a mental image of 'old' as of secondary importance. Would be better to refer to either Hebrew or Christian Scriptures. Outside of ecumenical purposes Jews have little interest and no need of Christian Scripture. The same is not true for Christians as we are dependent on Hebrew Scripture if we wish to know our own faith heritage.
     
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  17. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Not a problem at all. Concerning your question. You are in luck. I did a paper about that. ;) It is attached below. It is a bit technical but it may help a bit.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Old and New Testaments may be a valid statement for those who use texts that are called by such names. It just isn't valid for those of us who don't use texts that go by those names. ;)
     
  19. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    OK, just remembered that there was no rabbinical institution of Pharisees prior to the intertestamental period.
     
  20. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the same institution existed during the time of the giving fo the Torah. During that generations fo the Tanakh they were called (זקנים - נשאים - שופטים - שוטרים). The term Pharisee is more of a western term. During the 2nd Temple period all Jews who held by Torath Mosheh were called (פרושים) Perushim. Below is how Josephus describes them.

    For there are three philosophical sects among the Jews. The followers of the first of which are the Pharisees, of the second, the Sadducees, and the third sect, which pretends to a severer discipline, are called Essens.......But then as to the two other orders at first mentioned, the Pharisees are those who are esteemed most skilful in the exact explication of their laws, and introduce the first sect. These ascribe all to fate [or providence], and to God, and yet allow, that to act what is right, or the contrary, is principally in the power of men; although fate does co-operate in every action. They say that all souls are incorruptible, but that the souls of good men only are removed into other bodies, but that the souls of bad men are subject to eternal punishment.....Moreover, the Pharisees are friendly to one another, and are for the exercise of concord, and regard for the public; ........Now for the Pharisees, they live meanly, and despise delicacies in diet; and they follow the contract of reason: and what that prescribes to them as good for them they do: and they think they ought earnestly to strive to observe reason’s dictates for practice. They also pay a respect to such as are in years: nor are they so bold as to contradict them in any thing which they have introduced. And when they determine that all things are done by fate,2 they do not take away the freedom from men of acting as they think fit: since their notion is, that it hath pleased God to make a temperament; whereby what he wills is done; but so that the will of man can act virtuously or viciously. They also believe that souls have an immortal vigour in them: and that under the earth there will be rewards, or punishments; according as they have lived virtuously or viciously in this life: and the latter are to be detained in an everlasting prison; but that the former shall have power to revive and live again. On account of which doctrines they are able greatly to persuade the body of the people: and whatsoever they do about divine worship, prayers, and sacrifices, they perform them according to their direction. Insomuch, that the cities give great attestations to them, on account of their intire virtuous conduct, both in the actions of their lives, and their discourses also.
     
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