Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

[Skywalker]

The verse says "as gods", as in clearly eating from the fruit won't make you a god but will give you a certain kind of high-level sight.

Not sure that's comparable to the inherent dumbness of angels, as we've already come to conclude.

Pride is why the angels thought that they could take the throne of God. Why did Satan think he could defeat God? | GotQuestions.org

It is hard to imagine a being like Lucifer (Satan) believing he could even do battle with God, much less defeat Him. Even the most depraved mind should be able to see that a creature cannot possibly contend with the Creator. Yet Satan attempted to dethrone God and strives to this day to defy God’s authority, thwart His plans, and harass His people.

Perhaps part of the explanation is that pride has blinded Satan to reality. Two Old Testament passages (Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:11-19) discuss Satan’s original position and the reasons for his loss of that position. They tell of an exalted angelic being, one of God’s creatures, who became proud. He determined to take the throne of God for himself. But God removed him from his position.

 

[dybmh]

If there is good, there is evil. Look around you.

I already agreed with you that the evil exists as an idea or as a concept. Where we disagree is whether or not evil beings ( fallen angels or spirits ) actually exist. Why do you believe in these things?

 

[Harel13]

The article about the Book of Revelation mentioning the synagogue of Satan disagrees with anti Semitic conspiracy theories. What is the synagogue of Satan in Revelation? | GotQuestions.org

What I believe you haven't understood is that the distinction between "ethnic Jews" and "faithful Jews" is true also for Jews who had nothing to do with persecuting Christians (by the way, I find the claim that Christians were persecuted by Jews to be somewhat doubtful, for many reasons, but never mind that), because also Jews who didn't persecute Christians were and are unfaithful to Jesus and Christianity. This is replacement theology and is deeply antisemitic.

 

[Harel13]

I could be doing something meaningful, like praying, or learning Old French and making translations, or watching educational videos, or partaking in an intellectually stimulating discussion.

But no, I'm here debating remedial angels.

Welcome to RF.

 

[Skywalker]

I already agreed with you that the evil exists as an idea or as a concept. Where we disagree is whether or not evil beings ( fallen angels or spirits ) actually exist. Why do you believe in these things?

If people aren't led by one, they are led by the other. If there is good in the spiritual realm, there is evil in the spiritual realm.

 

[Harel13]

Pride is why the angels thought that they could take the throne of God. Why did Satan think he could defeat God? | GotQuestions.org

But now you haven't got evidence from the verse in Genesis. Thus, no reason to believe that it was pride that caused their downfall. I believe I'll stick to our original prognosis, which is that it was due to stupidity.

 

[Rival]

Welcome to RF.

If it weren't for Vouthon and all my Jewish friends I'm pretty sure I'd be much less participatory.

I guess we just sit and listen to demons all day tho

 

[Skywalker]

What I believe you haven't understood is that the distinction between "ethnic Jews" and "faithful Jews" is true also for Jews who had nothing to do with persecuting Christians (by the way, I find the claim that Christians were persecuted by Jews to be somewhat doubtful, for many reasons, but never mind that), because also Jews who didn't persecute Christians were and are unfaithful to Jesus and Christianity. This is replacement theology and is deeply antisemitic.

Replacement theology is false teaching. I don't just disagree with how Judaism interprets the scriptures I disagree with many interpretations of the scriptures that Christians make. Everyone mixes truth and lies. There are also some things that Jewish people say that I agree with, but I don't agree with the rejection of Jesus as the Messiah. Real Messiah

Clearly, the church had ignored Paul's warnings in the eleventh chapter of his letter to the Romans in which he had tried to ensure that those who believed inYeshua would not become arrogant and assume that they had replaced the non-believing Jews as God's chosen people. Paul described the church as a new branch that had been grafted on to an older tree, and he also insisted that it would be easy enough for the original and broken branch to be grafted back on when the time was right. Paul had proclaimed that God's gifts and calling are irrevocable and declared that someday all Israel would be saved. However, the church of Christendom was acting as though Israel's hardening was universal and permanent. Paul had also warned the church of the dangers of cutting themselves off from the mercy and favor of God if they gave into their arrogance and refused to show mercy and compassion to Israel. Given these clear warnings, we must conclude that only a deviant church could treat the Jews the way it did!

Criterion of embarrassment - Wikipedia

The criterion of embarrassment is a type of critical analysis in which an account is likely to be true as the author would have no reason to invent an account which might embarrass them. Certain Biblical scholars have used this as a metric for assessing whether the New Testament's accounts of Jesus' actions and words are historically probable.[1] The criterion of embarrassment is also used as an argument by those who say that the Torah is the word of God; the Jews in the Torah are often described in very critical, very unflattering terms.

 

[Skywalker]

But now you haven't got evidence from the verse in Genesis. Thus, no reason to believe that it was pride that caused their downfall. I believe I'll stick to our original prognosis, which is that it was due to stupidity.

The serpent told Eve that if she took the fruit she would be like God, knowing good and evil. Genesis 3:5

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

 

[Harel13]

Replacement theology is false teaching. I don't just disagree with how Judaism interprets the scriptures I disagree with many interpretations of the scriptures that Christians make. Everyone mixes truth and lies. There are also some things that Jewish people say that I agree with, but I don't agree with the rejection of Jesus as the Messiah. Real Messiah

Excellent, so you disagree with that other article you quoted and won't use it again?

 

[Harel13]

The serpent told Eve that if she took the fruit she would be like God, knowing good and evil. Genesis 3:5

Two points:
a. I noticed you switched from like gods to like God. Why?
b. We've already established that there's no evidence from the text that the snake is Satan.

 

[dybmh]

If people aren't led by one, they are led by the other. If there is good in the spiritual realm, there is evil in the spiritual realm.

Ah! Satan exists as an incarnated being, because you believe God exists as an incarnated being? Correct?

If so, before God incarnated as a being there was no Evil incarnation either. It sounds like your messiah made things worse not better.

On the plus side, since God cannot incarnate as human, per Exodus, Deuteronomy, Isaiah, King Solomon, etc, then Evil cannot incarnate as human either.

 

[Skywalker]

Ah! Satan exists as an incarnated being, because you believe God exists as an incarnated being? Correct?

If so, before God incarnated as a being there was no Evil incarnation either. It sounds like your messiah made things worse not better.

Some people interpret the Torah to mean that the snake is Satan. Do religious Jews generally believe the serpent of Garden of Eden was Satan?

Among the classical Torah commentators, there are those that interpret that whole Garden of Eden story as being literal historical fact, while others interpret it allegorically.

The main authority who treats it as allegory is Rambam in Moreh Nevuchim (Volume 2, Chapter 30), and according to his interpretation, the snake represents a person's "appetitive faculty" (the part of the Aristotelian model of the psych that controls a person's emotions and desires).

Those that interpret the story literally, though, differ in how they explain the talking snake:

• The snake from creation was an intelligent animal that talked, thought, and walked upright like a human. Only after its sin was it downgraded to the level of all the other animals (or perhaps below the level of most animals). [See Ibn Ezra (Bereshis 3:1).]
• The snake is actually the Torah's way of referring to Satan. (As @avi noted, the Satan is traditionally believed as being the evil inclination and/or the angel of death.) In this case, either there was no actual snake at all, or the Satan appeared in the form of a snake. [R' Saadia Gaon brought in Ibn Ezra.]

There are truths in extra biblical material. Some bits build our understanding and some bits are a deviation from the truth of scripture and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Skywalker]

Excellent, so you disagree with that other article you quoted and won't use it again?

People who interpret the verses about the synagogue of Satan to be about the people persecuting Christians are not teaching replacement theology. What is the synagogue of Satan in Revelation? | GotQuestions.org

Internet searches of “synagogue of Satan” produce quite a few links to sites that claim the “synagogue of Satan” refers to the Jewish people today and that promote all kinds of conspiracy theories about how the Jews run the world. Quite frankly, this is a misinterpretation and misapplication of the verses in Revelation. The synagogue of Satan refers to specific Jewish communities in Smyrna and Philadelphia that were persecuting the church, not to any modern situation. Likewise, no modern situation should be used as an interpretive tool to explain a passage firmly rooted in the first-century Roman world.

 

[Harel13]

Some people interpret the Torah to mean that the snake is Satan. Do religious Jews generally believe the serpent of Garden of Eden was Satan?

Are you comfortable with using the Jewish interpretation of the story to prove your Christian version of the story, despite the two versions being inherently different on many fronts?

 

[Skywalker]

Two points:
a. I noticed you switched from like gods to like God. Why?
b. We've already established that there's no evidence from the text that the snake is Satan.

a. you said in post 778 The verse says "as gods", as in clearly eating from the fruit won't make you a god but will give you a certain kind of high-level sight.
b.There are truths in extra biblical material but truth is often mixed with lies.

 

[Harel13]

People who interpret the verses about the synagogue of Satan to be about the people persecuting Christians are not teaching replacement theology. What is the synagogue of Satan in Revelation? | GotQuestions.org

I'm sorry, but they are. I already explained why this is so. When you differentiate between ethnic Jews and faithful Jews, and saying that the faithful Jews are those that believe in Jesus, i.e., Christians, that's replacement theology and is antisemitic, whether the ethnic Jews happen to be persecuting the Christians or not.

 

[Harel13]

a. you said in post 778 The verse says "as gods", as in clearly eating from the fruit won't make you a god but will give you a certain kind of high-level sight.

True, I said that. How does that explain why you changed from "as gods" to "as God"? (i.e., I used "as gods" because that's what appears in the version of the verse you brought).

b.There are truths in extra biblical material but truth is often mixed with lies.

Very true. I reject the extra-biblical tradition you're presenting.

 

[dybmh]

Some people interpret the Torah to mean that the snake is Satan

no, no... your source is wrong.

 

[Skywalker]

Are you comfortable with using the Jewish interpretation of the story to prove your Christian version of the story, despite the two versions being inherently different on many fronts?

Not all Jewish interpretations of Genesis 3:5 disagree with the Christian interpretations. Even Jewish Sages recognized and admitted that Psalm 22 was a prophetic psalm about the Messiah. Rashi explains verse 27 as referring: “To the time of redemption, to the days of the Messiah.