Why the Jesus sacrifice?

[Skyrim25]

So all the parts where Jesus mentions Moses as a real prophet and the Law of Moses being binding and seeing a vision of Moses must be interpolations in your view? Same would go for when Jude mentions Moses too, right?

It seems like we have a new form of revisionism every single day. It definitely speaks volumes that everyone seems to want to rip him apart from his Jewish context into their own baseless construction, you don't see that with many other prophets now do ya!

There are things that are clear as day however that your over looking.

To clear things up with jesus saying some things, notice that Jesus...avoids...saying things at the wrong times. There are plenty of times that Jesus has said something and then said the opposite when the TIME is right to avoid being stoned!

Answer these questions too if you think that Iam wrong...

1. If Jesus says that Moses's law is "binding" then why is Jesus challenging that very law and ends up getting killed by it? Wasnt it "binding"?...How come it is not binding now ACCORDING to Jesus? The Jewish people should by YOUR account believe that he is the Messiah then if there was no conflict.

2. By saying that Moses's law is the real word of god then that means that God is an evil god who is contradicting his own teachings and actions through Jesus (such as god living by the sword but Jesus saying to NOT live by the sword as well as GOD killing INNOCENT people).

3. By saying that Moses's word is actually the word of god then I guess that means that the Jewish people believe that Jesus is the Messiah right?...They dont so why then?

There was conflict between the Jewish law and Jesus's word of the real god's word.

Iam NOT trying to wive a far feched explanation. Iam looking at what is RIGHT in front of our faces that most of my live Ive over looked as well as everyone else. There is a difference in my explanation and the translations of Prophets. Jesus says for us to judge him to find any fault. Moses says to believe or else.

 

[Shermana]

Thank you for ignoring my question about interpolations. I will answer yours though. (By the way, some of the things Jesus said about Moses were to his own disciples, far away from the crowds, of whom he would have nothing to worry about being stoned.)

1. If Jesus says that Moses's law is "binding" then why is Jesus challenging that very law and ends up getting killed by it? Wasnt it "binding"?...How come it is not binding now ACCORDING to Jesus? The Jewish people should by YOUR account believe that he is the Messiah then if there was no conflict.

I answer this question almost every single day. Those who pose this question display a total lack of familiarity with what Jesus says, and I doubt they've read the Gospels. Jesus is against the "Manmade" traditions of the Pharisees. He points out their hypocrisy. He asks them why it's okay to circumcise on the Sabbath but not to heal. He specifically says the Law is forever, "Until heaven and earth collapse", that not "One iota" will disappear. He says anyone who teaches to break the least of the commandments shall eb called the least in the Kingdom. I'm getting so used to typing that out it's like at 200 wpm.

Answer me honestly, have you read the full gospels or not?

2. By saying that Moses's law is the real word of god then that means that God is an evil god who is contradicting his own teachings and actions through Jesus (such as god living by the sword but Jesus saying to NOT live by the sword as well as GOD killing INNOCENT people).

This begets an entire conversation on the morality of the Mosaic Law which is beyond the scope of this forum. I recommend you start a DIR on the Judaism thread and ask them there specifically about it.

Now as for "living by the sword", Jesus is saying to not use it brashly, as Peter used it against the High Priest's servant. He said it's better to sell your cloak and buy a weapon if you have none.

Otherwise, people like you are teaching that you should not resist anyone, including someone trying to assault your children. Are you advocating handing over your children to be assaulted?

3. By saying that Moses's word is actually the word of god then I guess that means that the Jewish people believe that Jesus is the Messiah right?...They dont so why then?

This is also a major topic of discussion beyond the scope of this thread which I have engaged in quite often, but I'm not quite sure why you make the leap that Moses being the word of god automatically makes Jesus the Messiah, that makes no sense. I believe Jesus was the Messiah, but I fail to see anything close to a cohesive point in your connection. As for why Jews don't accept Jesus, this is a subject which has several specific threads on this forum where I can direct you to, and I can show you where I believe I've pulverized several attempts to try to claim what the Messianic prophecies are in pigeon-holed contexts that may or may not line up with what the text actually indicates.

 

[Skyrim25]

Thank you for ignoring my question about interpolations. I will answer yours though. (By the way, some of the things Jesus said about Moses were to his own disciples, far away from the crowds, of whom he would have nothing to worry about being stoned.)



I answer this question almost every single day. Those who pose this question display a total lack of familiarity with what Jesus says, and I doubt they've read the Gospels. Jesus is against the "Manmade" traditions of the Pharisees. He points out their hypocrisy. He asks them why it's okay to circumcise on the Sabbath but not to heal. He specifically says the Law is forever, "Until heaven and earth collapse", that not "One iota" will disappear. He says anyone who teaches to break the least of the commandments shall eb called the least in the Kingdom. I'm getting so used to typing that out it's like at 200 wpm.

Answer me honestly, have you read the full gospels or not?



This begets an entire conversation on the morality of the Mosaic Law which is beyond the scope of this forum. I recommend you start a DIR on the Judaism thread and ask them there specifically about it.

Now as for "living by the sword", Jesus is saying to not use it brashly, as Peter used it against the High Priest's servant. He said it's better to sell your cloak and buy a weapon if you have none.

Otherwise, people like you are teaching that you should not resist anyone, including someone trying to assault your children. Are you advocating handing over your children to be assaulted?



This is also a major topic of discussion beyond the scope of this thread which I have engaged in quite often, but I'm not quite sure why you make the leap that Moses being the word of god automatically makes Jesus the Messiah, that makes no sense. I believe Jesus was the Messiah, but I fail to see anything close to a cohesive point in your connection. As for why Jews don't accept Jesus, this is a subject which has several specific threads on this forum where I can direct you to, and I can show you where I believe I've pulverized several attempts to try to claim what the Messianic prophecies are in pigeon-holed contexts that may or may not line up with what the text actually indicates.

ALL...of this DOSE involve Jesus's Death.

To answer your first question, Jesus cant just come out and say that Moses's views on the PROMISE LAND prophecy are wrong without getting stoned.

1. Jesus has said that he is just a teacher but then at the right time he says that "I am that I am". There are many other things as well that even with his own people they will doubt him if he says something opposite of what is said by Moses. There are many times that Jesus has contradicted himself...Its why he was killed!

2. Also another part that your forgetting is that Moses says how the Messiah is to come...He is to come on a white horse in armor and take the throne in the Temple. However Jesus does the EXACT opposite. Moses was wrong or Jesus is NOT the Messiah then.

3. The land of Canaan was taken by the Jewish people by FORCE in COLD blood. How can an HONEST Messiah or God take that throne in truth and be called a justified God/Messiah?

4. Jesus is talking about not living by the sword in terms of offence. Jesus's words were "those that live by the sword DIE by the sword"! The JEWS DID USE THE SWORD BY OFFENCE WHEN THEY TOOK CANAAN IN BLOOD!

I have read all the books including the ones not included in the bible by Catholics. I was born into UPC church and now I am not.

 

[Skyrim25]

Shermana...I forgot to mention that according to Romans there is God's law and then there is the one that Moses set in place. Jesus talks of Gods law and Jesus contradicts and challenges Moses law of false hood. It got Jesus killed!

 

[Shermana]

1. Jesus has said that he is just a teacher but then at the right time he says that "I am that I am"

Let me stop you right there. This is another thing I deal with all the time.

First off, Jesus said "I am", NOT "I am that I am". And with that, there is much reason to believe he was NOT declaring to be the being who calls himself "I am", or more literally, "I shall be". Jesus was declaring to have existed up until Abraham. I have addressed this topic literally over a hundred times on this forum alone.

The Trinity Delusion: John 8:58

Please read the above link and I'll be happy to answer to any objections.

It's quite obvious you have no familiarity with what the Gospels actually say and are going by second hand accounts of major controversial topics. Am I mistaken?

2. Also another part that your forgetting is that Moses says how the Messiah is to come...He is to come on a white horse in armor and take the throne in the Temple. However Jesus does the EXACT opposite. Moses was wrong or Jesus is NOT the Messiah then.

My suspicion is confirmed. Where the bleeding h-e-double-hockey sticks are you getting this? Are you getting this from some extra-canonical pseudipigrapha I haven't read yet? You do realize this is NOT in the Torah, right? If you disagree, pull out the verse or kindly admit "I was talking about something I have no idea about my apologies" and save some face.

3. The land of Canaan was taken by the Jewish people by FORCE in COLD blood. How can an HONEST Messiah or God take that throne in truth and be called a justified God/Messiah?

The Canaanites were evil and their "iniquity was complete". They did reprehensible things.
This begets yet another topic beyond the scope of this thread, which is of the nature of Deity and how it conflicts with your sugar-coated-kumbaya idea.

I have read all the books including the ones not included in the bible by Catholics. I was born into UPC church and now I am not.

Either you obviously haven't or it's been such a long time that you don't actually remember what they say.

 

[Shermana]

Shermana...I forgot to mention that according to Romans there is God's law and then there is the one that Moses set in place. Jesus talks of Gods law and Jesus contradicts and challenges Moses law of false hood. It got Jesus killed!

Jesus never contradicts or challenges Moses's law, not even on the Divorce issue, where he is merely summarizing Shammai's position. What he challenges is the Pharisical interpretations and their "Manmade traditions" as he calls them. You are sorely mistaken. What got Jesus killed was his claim to be the "Son of man". He doesn't even claim to be violating Sabbath, he simply is telling them that they have wrong interpretations of what is and isn't actually allowed on it, which is why he points out that they are willing to circumcise or pick a fallen animal out of a ditch.

 

[Skyrim25]

Let me stop you right there. This is another thing I deal with all the time.

First off, Jesus said "I am", NOT "I am that I am". And with that, there is much reason to believe he was NOT declaring to be the being who calls himself "I am", or more literally, "I shall be". Jesus was declaring to have existed up until Abraham. I have addressed this topic literally over a hundred times on this forum alone.



Please read the above link and I'll be happy to answer to any objections.

It's quite obvious you have no familiarity with what the Gospels actually say and are going by second hand accounts of major controversial topics. Am I mistaken?




My suspicion is confirmed. Where the bleeding h-e-double-hockey sticks are you getting this? Are you getting this from some extra-canonical pseudipigrapha I haven't read yet? You do realize this is NOT in the Torah, right? If you disagree, pull out the verse or kindly admit "I was talking about something I have no idea about my apologies" and save some face.



The Canaanites were evil and their "iniquity was complete". They did reprehensible things.
This begets yet another topic beyond the scope of this thread, which is of the nature of Deity and how it conflicts with your sugar-coated-kumbaya idea.



Either you obviously haven't or it's been such a long time that you don't actually remember what they say.

Ok we are making ground.

1. Ive read to clip you gave me and it still refers to him as God...it says that he is the word of god itself and the Messiah. My point still stands on that matter. He claimed to be the Messiah.

2. Iam not getting any of this from any other source outside of the "current" bible.

3. Iam trying to find the info on this one but for the time being... Moses says that the prophecy is to build a temple in Canaan and the Messiah is to come and take the throne and destroy Gods enemies. This DOES happen but not how the Jews expected. The promise land was NOT actual land at all it was in your heart.

4.The topic of the Canaanites IS on topic of Jesus's Death. Your saying that the Canaanites were evil?...Moses was the only one that said that btw! Are you saying that the women and children's death was justified? According to history the Canaanites where made up of peacful City States( they didnt even have a military). Are the Canaanites any more evil then the Jewish people by killing children?

5. Ive had many many bible studies in my life. it is hard to remember where alot of the my info is from so I will have to search.

 

[Skyrim25]

Jesus never contradicts or challenges Moses's law, not even on the Divorce issue, where he is merely summarizing Shammai's position. What he challenges is the Pharisical interpretations and their "Manmade traditions" as he calls them. You are sorely mistaken. What got Jesus killed was his claim to be the "Son of man". He doesn't even claim to be violating Sabbath, he simply is telling them that they have wrong interpretations of what is and isn't actually allowed on it, which is why he points out that they are willing to circumcise or pick a fallen animal out of a ditch.

That is true about the traditions, Ive never said that it wasnt. I was saying that there was other reasons as well. He challenged Moses's Prophecy on the Messiahs coming.

1. How can the Messiah come and sit on the throne built in other peoples blood? Jesus says no no no if any innocent person is going to still there blood in the name of god its his own blood. Jesus built the promise Land on his own blood rather then the blood of others!

2. The irony of the situation is that the temple is NOW destroyed and on its place sits a christian church and an islamic temple. The Irony is so thick that the Jews are back at square one. They took the land in force and in blood and ...NOW...the only way to take that land back is by blood...Oh the irony!

 

[Ingledsva]

Actually Moses's views contradicted Jesus's views

Moses is the false prophet (The false Prophet told in Revelations)!

Moses created the Jewish law and it is by this very law that Jesus was judged and condemned to died. Jewish law(which Moses says is Gods word) Verses Jesus's word(which Jesus says is Gods word). To this day the Jewish people dont see Jesus as the Messiah because they believe that Jesus was WRONG and Moses was right. Moses talked of a different Messiah with different views and would do different things.

Proof...

1. Moses said that the Messiah was to come on a white horse in armor, then walk into the "Kingdom's Temple" and take the throne. After that the Messiah was to destroy all of gods enemies with the "sword".

Jesus's conflict- Jesus says to NOT live by the sword and nether does God(proves Moses is wrong about the promise). Jesus comes in on a donkey in rags and doesnt even make it into the temple without being outraged and leaving in anger at what Moses HIMSELF HAD CREATED. That same law (moses's law) got Jesus killed because of Moses's misunderstanding of the "Promise Land".


2.Moses's view was one of a vengeful god that lived by the sword. According to Moses God had killed every first born child that didnt put lambs blood on there door. According to Moses God killed innocent children!!!!!!! According to Moses god also had the Canaanites killed by the sword and every man women and child was killed. According to Moses God also killed two cities of gay people and also made many innocent people suffer the plagues in Egypt as well as killing many more during that time...what an unforgiving and evil God!

Jesus's conflict- Jesus says not to live by the sword but instead to live by mercy and forgiveness(this is in conflict with Moses interpretation of god and his actions). How can the Messiah come into the temple and sit on the throne in the kingdom when the throne itself is COVERED in the blood of INNOCENT people(Canaanites killed in cold blood so a Temple can be built in Gods glory) and be called a righteous and justified being? What good things comes from doing bad?

3. Moses "thought" that the promise land was the land of Canaan and that the Kingdom of God was to be there and to build a temple for the Messiah's coming.

Jesus's conflict- Jesus says that the promise land is in you and not actual land at all. This means that Moses killed the Canaanites for nothing and it means that God did NOT order Moses's people to kill them like Moses himself said in the Old testament (meaning that Moses is an out right ...lair... by saying that its God's commandment to kill them for the sake of the Promise Land when instead the Promise Land is in yourself as per Jesus).

Jesus brought the kingdom of heaven down to earth and DID build a temple on it and the Messiah DID take the throne like the prophecy said(in Revelations), it just was not what the Jewish people had expected. They expected the promise land to be Canaan and NOT in your heart like Jesus says. The Jews KILLED Jesus for it because he contradicted Moses's interpretation of Gods promise and Gods word. and its all thanks to Moses's misunderstanding of the Promise land and why the Jews to this day dont believe in Jesus as the Messiah!

A whole lot of words - BUT - the Bible does not say anywhere that Moses is a false prophet.

- forgot to add - If Moses was a false prophet, and If Jesus was against him, why was Jesus talking to him when transfigured on the mountain?

Mark 9:4 And there appeared before them Elias with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus.
*
*

 

[Shermana]

Ok we are making ground.

1. Ive read to clip you gave me and it still refers to him as God...it says that he is the word of god itself and the Messiah. My point still stands on that matter. He claimed to be the Messiah.

Huh? No it does not! Quote what you read that gives you this impression. Claiming to be Messiah has nothing to do with Claiming to be God!! Being the incarnation of the word is a whole different ballgame, this goes back to the Septuagint era, Philo-era concept of Wisdom Incarnated, the Logos, the Firstborn Created Being.

2. Iam not getting any of this from any other source outside of the "current" bible.

Then you should have no problem quoting your references.

3. Iam trying to find the info on this one but for the time being... Moses says that the prophecy is to build a temple in Canaan and the Messiah is to come and take the throne and destroy Gods enemies. This DOES happen but not how the Jews expected. The promise land was NOT actual land at all it was in your heart.

Nowhere does it say the Messiah is to take the throne in Moses. At best you are talking about Isaiah. If you feel otherwise, QUOTE.

4.The topic of the Canaanites IS on topic of Jesus's Death. Your saying that the Canaanites were evil?...

Yes I am.

Moses was the only one that said that btw!

It's referenced elsewhere too, like Joshua and in Judges.

Are you saying that the women and children's death was justified?

Yes, the entire seed had been corrupted, their "iniquity was complete", the population itself had gone sour.

According to history the Canaanites where made up of peacful City States( they didnt even have a military).

What history is this? I have a feeling you are talking about things you have absolutely not researched whatsoever and I'm suspecting you got it from some unsourced youtube video. Or Karen Armstrong.

Are the Canaanites any more evil then the Jewish people by killing children?

They ate their children. They did worse than kill and eat them. The whole race had become polluted through their disgusting practices.

5. Ive had many many bible studies in my life. it is hard to remember where alot of the my info is from so I will have to search.

Okay, get searching.

 

[Shermana]

That is true about the traditions, Ive never said that it wasnt. I was saying that there was other reasons as well. He challenged Moses's Prophecy on the Messiahs coming.

Quote the exact verses which you feel give you this view. I've NEVER once come across this view, please also cite the link that gave you this idea. Or kindly admit you came up with it purely on your own.

1. How can the Messiah come and sit on the throne built in other peoples blood? Jesus says no no no if any innocent person is going to still there blood in the name of god its his own blood. Jesus built the promise Land on his own blood rather then the blood of others!

Please quote exactly what verse you feel Jesus said this.

2. The irony of the situation is that the temple is NOW destroyed and on its place sits a christian church and an islamic temple. The Irony is so thick that the Jews are back at square one. They took the land in force and in blood and ...NOW...the only way to take that land back is by blood...Oh the irony!

Might makes right is the philosophy behind every single culture and country on Earth, I see no wrong with it. The Jews lost their land because they angered their god, so he let others have the right of might.

 

[Skyrim25]

Quote the exact verses which you feel give you this view. I've NEVER once come across this view, please also cite the link that gave you this idea. Or kindly admit you came up with it purely on your own.



Please quote exactly what verse you feel Jesus said this.



Might makes right is the philosophy behind every single culture and country on Earth, I see no wrong with it. The Jews lost their land because they angered their god, so he let others have the right of might.

I used alot of my own words in but I will try my best to explain it...

1. This is a question for you...Do you know what the Prophecy of the Messiah even is? Here is how it is supposed to go down..
1) The people are to be delivered to the Promise Land first.
2) Second they are to build a temple on that Promise Land as per God even giving them the measurements to it(so to speak anyway).
3) Next they wait for the Messiah and they watch for the signs for his coming (many different versions of these signs so its hard to tell which ones are the right ones but thanks to Revelations we know now what those sign were).
4) After that he is to walk into the temple and claim the throne within.
5) He is to be a warrior of sorts and bring down the enemies of Israel...AFTER...it has formed its own nation btw. The High priests condemned Jesus because he did not "fit the bill" of a Messiah they expected( he was to come in on a horse but instead comes in on a donkey) They were also outraged at the fact that he said "Iam" when asked "are you the son of God?". Jesus spoke against the High Priests because there law and traditions(made by Moses) was with fault by Jesus. Moses was to blame for the state of the Jewish people that put Jesus to death. They were Moses's people that judged him by Moses's law and it was Moses's people that said "Crucify him".
He did deliver them to the Promise Land, it was not the one that Moses talked about. Jesus talked of a Promise Land that was in you and in your heart. There is where the temple is and its there that the throne is set.
The Canaanites payed in innocent blood for the salvation of the Israelites to happen(Promise Land). Jesus corrects this by being judged and killed in the same law that the Canaanites where judged and killed by for the sake of salvation. Jesus follows the SAME EXACT PATH the Canaanites did for the salvation of the Jewish people...instead of taking the throne built on innocent blood(which is blasphemy if Jesus takes the throne as the Messiah is supposed to) he spills his own innocent blood on the same land and takes a different throne and it was done by mercy and forgiveness(forgive them, for they know not what they do). This solidifies beyond doubt that the true Promise Land as being the heart itself as the heart is pure as "milk and honey"(Promise Land). It also solidifies God's sorrow for the Canaanites and that they are not forgotten by Him. God forgave the Jewish people for there sins of transgression brought forth by Moses's own law itself!

The Jewish people that lost there land was caused by there own transgressions(sword) and now they have never seen peace since then, they have been transgressed(sword) upon by everyone ever since they wronged the Canaanites...Irony!!!!!! "Those who live by the sword die by the sword"-Jesus

 

[Skyrim25]

Shermana,

One other thing that I would like to point out is the fact that Moses is not allowed to enter the Promise Land by God. I think that this is symbolic...

God talks to Moses and tells him to speak to the rock and it will give water to his people.
1.The rock is usually symbolic of the word of God.
2. The water is usually symbolic for "spirit" or for "life giver"

Instead of talking(talking symbolizing the word of God and the spirit brought forth by peace) to it he strikes it twice. This means that he tried to get the word of God and or spirit to his people through violence.

If Canaan is the Promise Land then because of Moses the land is now a land of blood and not "water" at all. This leads to Jesus's death as well.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

What is, on practice, the importance of being in a relationship with God in this context?

It allows the Holy Spirit to work through you.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Forgiveness is "forgiveness of sins", correct?

If you still must pay a debt for sins, then that debt cannot be considered forgiven.

EDIT:
No verses are needed-- it's the definition of forgiveness that would indicate atonement is unnecessary (or vice versa: that if atonement was performed, then "forgiveness" has not occurred.)

It's not a matter of verses; it's a matter of the meaning of the terms "forgiveness" and "atonement".

Atonement means to "pay back" what you owe. Forgiveness means to cancel what you owe. Once a debt is cancelled, it no longer needs to be paid back. If you have to pay it back, it wasn't really cancelled. If you need to atone for it, it wasn't forgiven.

If the penalty of your sins are forgiven then why do you still die?

 

[Willamena]

Actually, from reading the scriptures I see that the Christ's payment for sin covers all the sins of the world...past, present, future, As long as anyone remains alive in this physical world they will at times sin, even believers, yet the scriptures say...

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

If it covers past, then the debt is essentially wiped out before it is made. If it covers future, then it is the "get out of jail free" card.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Wait, if you are going to ask him a verse for that, then i require you to post a verse to backup your first quote here as well.

There are no verses that offer the forgiveness of sins to eradicated the debt which is death.

On the other hand there is for atonement (from Romans 5, KJV Highlights mine);
[11] And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
[13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
[14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
[15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
[16] And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.


The atonement came as a free gift from Christ through His death.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

there are no verses that offer the forgiveness of sins to eradicated the debt which is death.

On the other hand there is for atonement (from Romans 5, KJV Highlights mine);
[11] And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
[13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
[14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
[15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
[16] And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.


The atonement came as a free gift from Christ through His death.

It's weird to see Jesus described as a man in this verse.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

But if Jesus was murdered and not sacrificed, would that negate everyone who say that Jesus died for us?

And IF Jesus died for us, then the question is back on the table again of why the horrible death was necessary for God to be able to... forgive...

Jesus wasn't murdered. He offered his own condemnation (Mark 14 KJV);
[61] But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
[62] And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
[63] Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
[64] Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

It's weird to see Jesus described as a man in this verse.

Only a man could pay the penalty of sin.