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Why the Jesus sacrifice?

Koldo

Koldo

Outstanding Member
sandy whitelinger said:
there are no verses that offer the forgiveness of sins to eradicated the debt which is death.

On the other hand there is for atonement (from Romans 5, KJV Highlights mine);
[11] And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
[13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
[14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
[15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
[16] And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.


The atonement came as a free gift from Christ through His death.
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Why do christians still die if the debt has been paid?
 
sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Ingledsva said:
An increase of sin did not come in with the law. It doesn't say that. The law came because of the increased sin.

Rom 5:19 For just-as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 (For) Law also came in alongside; with the purpose that, along with the increase of sin, that it could-thus then supersede sin, with abundant grace.
*
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While the Law came because of sin all it did was define it which is where "Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound." (Romans 5:20 KJV) has it's meaning.
 
sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Shermana said:
So all the parts where Jesus mentions Moses as a real prophet and the Law of Moses being binding and seeing a vision of Moses must be interpolations in your view? Same would go for when Jude mentions Moses too, right?

It seems like we have a new form of revisionism every single day. It definitely speaks volumes that everyone seems to want to rip him apart from his Jewish context into their own baseless construction, you don't see that with many other prophets now do ya!
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Nope. Romans clearly points out the separation of the flesh and mind. The Mosaic Law rules the flesh and the the law of faith rules the mind. The death of Christ allow the flesh of a Christian to be symbolically separated from their mind while alive and permanently after the resurrection. Therefore there are two separate laws and Christians are dead to their flesh and the Mosaic Law.
 
Koldo

Koldo

Outstanding Member
sandy whitelinger said:
Because the body, which is where sin dwells dies. Christians will be resurrected in a new body free of sin.
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In both cases the person dies though.
Neither the atonement nor the forgiveness prevent the debt from being paid.

The wages of sin is death. It isn't the inability to rebirth.
 
sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Falvlun said:
I fail to see how this helps your argument any.

After all, even those who accept Christ's atonement still die.
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The penalty of sin, death applies to all sinners. Christ's atonement applies to the resurrection. The body of a Christian, according to Romans, is where sin dwells and as such must die.
 
sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Koldo said:
In both cases the person dies though.
Neither the atonement nor the forgiveness prevent the debt from being paid.

The wages of sin is death. It isn't the inability to rebirth.
Click to expand...
You are applying the atonement to the wrong situation. It applies to the resurrection.
 
Koldo

Koldo

Outstanding Member
sandy whitelinger said:
In the mind.
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Yes, i thought so. But that's not what i meant.
Guide to what place? To fulfill what purpose?

sandy whitelinger said:
The Bible doesn't speak of his motivations.
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Indeed it doesn't. But what i am trying to get at is: Why would anyone care about being forgiven if only the atonement can remove the penalty of sin? What difference would it make to the individual? Is his life going to improve in any way?
 
sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Koldo said:
Let's make it simple: What IS the atonement?
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Our reconciliation with God (Romans 5 KJV):
[8] But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
[9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
[10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
[11] And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
 
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