Why the forbidden fruit?

[YoursTrue]

This is just too far from the question of the opening post, but thanks. If you can't acknowledge that there is a problem inherant in the plot of the story, we don't really have much to discuss.

You see the problem, I don't. The problem it seems you see is that God wants his creatures to be ignorant. I don't 'see' that at all in the account. So if you think mankind has figured out the morally right thing to do, without God's guidance as revealed by His holy spirit, I'm disagreeing with that assessment. But anyway, I don't suppose you think Armageddon is going to happen either. Why bother asking questions if you think things like Sodom and Gomorrah and Noarh's flood are myths? As if they didn't really happen? Like with Abraham? Then it's like a house of cards that is going to collapse.

 

[Colt]

Well..... are you sure that's what it says?

Let's look at it:

Gen 4:14

הֵן֩ גֵּרַ֨שְׁתָּ אֹתִ֜י הַיּ֗וֹם מֵעַל֙ פְּנֵ֣י הָֽאֲדָמָ֔ה וּמִפָּנֶ֖יךָ אֶסָּתֵ֑ר וְהָיִ֜יתִי נָ֤ע וָנָד֙ בָּאָ֔רֶץ וְהָיָ֥ה כָל־מֹֽצְאִ֖י יַֽהַרְגֵֽנִי

The part to focus on is at the end. "וְהָיָ֥ה כָל־מֹֽצְאִ֖י יַֽהַרְגֵֽנִי" It literally says "And it will be any find me will slay me". "כָל" is any, not anyone, just plain any. Making it a little more readable, we can add a word "that". So the phrase is "... and it will be any [that] find me will slay me." That's it. A person isn't specificied. Cain is saying "any" not anyone.

Gen 4:15 It's basically the same thing as in the previous verse.

וַיֹּ֧אמֶר ל֣וֹ יְהֹוָ֗ה לָכֵן֙ כָּל־הֹרֵ֣ג קַ֔יִן שִׁבְעָתַ֖יִם יֻקָּ֑ם וַיָּ֨שֶׂם יְהֹוָ֤ה לְקַ֨יִן֙ א֔וֹת לְבִלְתִּ֥י הַכּֽוֹת־אֹת֖וֹ כָּל־מֹֽצְאֽוֹ

​

"כָּל־הֹרֵ֣ג" - any [that] slay
"כָּל־מֹֽצְאֽוֹ" - any [that] find him


Gen 4:16, Cain "knew" his wife and they conceived... It didn't say he found a wife. Cain could have brought a wife with him? We're not told that Adam and Eve had no other children. Yes it would have been incest, but that's not uncommon for primitive people. There is a legit theory, in my opinion, that Cain and Abel had twin sisters. Legit enough not to make assumptions. See below:

Aclima - Wikipedia.

I see, you are saying that God put some sort of "mark" on Cain so that if he encountered a bear or shark or tiger, bees' nest etc. out in the world, they would leave him alone???

 

[Colt]

Yes, Satan became a fallen cherubic angel by the time he told the first lie and that was to Eve.
The whole world did Not have to be populated for Cain to be in fear.

Cain was afraid of "anyone" out in the world. According to dybmh it was just any. Translators mislead the whole world! LoL!

 

[dybmh]

I see, you are saying that God put some sort of "mark" on Cain so that if he encountered a bear or shark or tiger, bees' nest etc. out in the world, they would leave him alone???

a tiger or bear or bees nest operating under the direction of a demon, sure. Why not?

 

[metis]

By prohibiting the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, God was essentially insisting that we remain in ignorance.

Maybe He doesn't want competition?

 

[Colt]

a tiger or bear or bees nest operating under the direction of a demon, sure. Why not?

When did the demons come into existence?

 

[Dogknox20]

In the story of Adam and Eve, God forbids them to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It seems to imply that God did not want them to know good from evil. Why would that be? And does that strike you as not wanting them to spiritually grow?

.
IndigoChild5559 Happy new year...
The simple answer is... You cannot sin if you don't know what sin is!
Children cannot sin; Animals cannot sin! Free Will gives us a choice to obey or to disobey! Adam made his choice he decided to disobey! Adam decided not to Love God!
1 John 5:3
In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
Adam and Eve were removed from the Tree of Life because they did not love! The Tree of Life is just that "It Gives Life"! Adam died because he lost access to the Tree of Life! The "Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil" means man's Innocents was lost! Man could not say; he did not know what sin was!

Look...
Revelation 2:7
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

IndigoChild5559 The Good Thief on the cross ended up in a Garden he will live forever because he will have access to the "Tree of Life"!
God did not want them to know good from evil because knowing opens the door to sin... Sin brings death!
17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

 

[pearl]

In the story of Adam and Eve, God forbids them to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It seems to imply that God did not want them to know good from evil. Why would that be? And does that strike you as not wanting them to spiritually grow?

God planting a garden in Eden and growing every kind of tree that is “pleasant to the sight and good for food.” This garden includes both the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. After creating man, He puts him in the garden and commands: “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die” (Genesis 2:16-17). God does not prohibit man from eating the fruit from the tree of life, until they commit the first sin by disobeying God’s commandment not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He places a cherubim along with a flaming sword to guard 'the way' to the tree of life and makes sure that man does not eat from the tree of life and live forever (Genesis 3:22-24).

 

[metis]

When did the demons come into existence?

When were you borne?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Maybe He doesn't want competition?

It seems horribly petty, but that kind of appear to be what's going on. Genesis 3:22 sort of continues in that vein: "Now the Lord God said, "Behold man has become like one of us, having the ability of knowing good and evil, and now, lest he stretch forth his hand and take also from the Tree of Life and eat and live forever." It appears to me from the text like God's concern is that mankind NOT be like him. This stands in contrast to the God of Genesis 1, who made us in his image.

Keep in mind that this is not how I myself experience God. The God I know from my prayers is not petty. But this God of Genesis 3 does seem to be that way.

So moving to the next question, what do we do with that? I mean, the story is supposed to teach us important truths.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You see the problem, I don't. The problem it seems you see is that God wants his creatures to be ignorant. I don't 'see' that at all in the account. So if you think mankind has figured out the morally right thing to do, without God's guidance as revealed by His holy spirit, I'm disagreeing with that assessment. But anyway, I don't suppose you think Armageddon is going to happen either. Why bother asking questions if you think things like Sodom and Gomorrah and Noarh's flood are myths? As if they didn't really happen? Like with Abraham? Then it's like a house of cards that is going to collapse.

What I'm looking for in a post is two things. The first is that it acknowledges that there is a problem with God looking like he wants to hold us back. The second is a suggestion what can be done with this. If you can't acknowledge the problem, you can't offer a solution.

I ask because myths are teaching stories.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Cain was afraid of "anyone" out in the world. According to dybmh it was just any. Translators mislead the whole world! LoL!

I am wondering which verse or verses you have in mind________________ Genesis 4:15

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What I'm looking for in a post is two things. The first is that it acknowledges that there is a problem with God looking like he wants to hold us back. The second is a suggestion what can be done with this. If you can't acknowledge the problem, you can't offer a solution.....

In Job it might look like to some that God is holding us back but the challenge issue comes from Satan.
'Touch our flesh.... '(Loose physical health) and we would Not serve God under adverse conditions - Job 2:4-5
What can be done is already done. For example: both Job and Jesus under adverse conditions proved faithful to God.
Jesus proved to be that promised 'seed' (Messiah) at Genesis 3:15
Thus, through Jesus as Messiah there will be ' healing ' for earth's nations - Revelation 22:2
Healing to the point that No one will say, " I am sick......" - Isaiah 33:24
Earth and its people will be happy-and-healthy as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.
In other words, through Messiah then God will undo all the damage Satan and Adam brought upon humanity.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

When did the demons come into existence?

Seems as if Satan was the beginning or the start of demon existence.
Satan is referred to as that 'original serpent ' in Eden at Revelation 12:9
The word ' father' means: life giver.
So, by Jesus referring to Satan as the ' father of the lie ' makes Satan the life-giver / the starter of the lie/sin.

 

[Colt]

I am wondering which verse or verses you have in mind________________ Genesis 4:15

Yes, that will do.

 

[Colt]

Seems as if Satan was the beginning or the start of demon existence.
Satan is referred to as that 'original serpent ' in Eden at Revelation 12:9
The word ' father' means: life giver.
So, by Jesus referring to Satan as the ' father of the lie ' makes Satan the life-giver / the starter of the lie/sin.

I agree that the rebel supporters in the celestial world fell when the crafty beast fell which was before he tricked Eve.

 

[YoursTrue]

What I'm looking for in a post is two things. The first is that it acknowledges that there is a problem with God looking like he wants to hold us back. The second is a suggestion what can be done with this. If you can't acknowledge the problem, you can't offer a solution.

I ask because myths are teaching stories.

A problem with GOD looking like he wants to hold us back? What? lolol...sorry, I tend to laugh sometimes at the ridiculous. No offense intended.

 

[YoursTrue]

What I'm looking for in a post is two things. The first is that it acknowledges that there is a problem with God looking like he wants to hold us back. The second is a suggestion what can be done with this. If you can't acknowledge the problem, you can't offer a solution.

I ask because myths are teaching stories.

The problem was not with God, and it's a pity that you think so.

 

[pearl]

The story is concerned with the 'tree of knowledge' of good and evil. Good and evil is a merism, a literary figure by which totality is expressed by the first and last is the series or by opposites. Ps 139:2, 'You know when I sit down and when I stand up' or all my physical movement.
"To know' in Hebrew is experiential, and relational not only intellectual.
Eating of the fruit of the tree imparts a mastery of life and an autonomy that is inappropriate to the earth creature created from dust. The man would cease to be finite and human.
"New Jerome Biblical Commentary'

 

[Clear]

post one of two

@IndigoChild5559 asked : "In the story of Adam and Eve, God forbids them to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It seems to imply that God did not want them to know good from evil. Why would that be? And does that strike you as not wanting them to spiritually grow?" (O.P.)

I am impressed with @Brian2 s’ ability to consider options and concepts and the intuitive implications of God having placed Adam and Even in a Garden with the very tree of moral wisdom (c.f. enoch) and sentience he, at least temporarily, does not want Adam and Eve to partake of. Additionally, he places a wily and evil Satan in a position to influence the naïve and unexperienced Adam and Eve.

For examples :

Brian2 observed : "They weren't ready for that knowledge, and we see what the results were." (post #13)

Brian2 also observed ; "God is the one who put the tree in the garden. He did not have to. It means that God did not want them to eat the fruit then, but we do not know what God would have allow them to do in the future had they been faithful." (post #20)

There is nothing, per se, that is inherently wrong with having knowledge of good and evil nor the wisdom to understand the difference.
Brians' observation that it may be the TIMING of gaining this knowledge that was the problem is like he's read the Kabbalahic observation that God would have ultimately given Adam and Eve that knowledge, just not yet.

The fall of mankind does not seem to be a situation where a Wiley Satan tricks and therefore ruins an Omniscient God’s initial plan (thereby necessitating a hastily prepared “plan B”), but instead, an omniscient God would have known the fall would have happened and it would have happened according to an omniscient and omnipotent Gods plan. (I suppose one could argue God is not omnipotent and omniscient….)


The principle that all is happening according to Gods initial plan is reflected in much of the early Judeo-Christian literature. For example, it was the Prophet Sedrach’s observation to God the Father that : “It was by your will that Adam was deceived, my master” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 5:1-7). The second principle was the early doctrine that Adam partook of the “TREE OF WISDOM” (1st Enoch 32:3-6). It was not simply the tree of "knowledge”.

The implications of both ancient principles was the basis of an entirely different paradigm. Combined and paraphrased, this ancient doctrine was : “IT WAS ACCORDING TO GOD’S WILL THAT ADAM ACQUIRED WISDOM”.


The fact that the original plan called for a savior to redeem meant that it was known from the very beginning that man would both fall and need a redeemer to save them from the fall. Early texts such as Jewish Zohar confirm this doctrine that it was known from the beginning that some of the spirits born into mortality would do evil (and thus a redemptive mechanism was going to be needed) :

"At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, .... Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. ” (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)

For example, Christian Diognetus relates the principle that Gods plan INCLUDED moral knowledge and sentience when he explained :

"And when he (God) revealed it (his plan) through his beloved Child and made known the things prepared from the beginning, he gave us to share in his benefits and to see and understand things which none of [us] ever would have expected.” (Diog 301:8-11)

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS