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Why not to be Catholic

Spiderman

Veteran Member
These people were the church. There was no one else. They were the sole representatives of the church for centuries.



The problem lies in the fact that so many fail to recognize the weeds that Jesus said were sown very early in the piece. They deny that this apostasy ever happened.

Find me a trinity in Biblical Christianity (what Jesus taught)....find me eternal hellfire....immortality of the soul....deification of Mary....purgatory....limbo....holy water.....liturgy....Mass....celibate priests and nuns....monasteries....elaborate cathedrals.....crucifixes.....a monstrance....bread in the shape of the sun....fancy garments of purple and scarlet and fish shaped hats...parading idols through the streets....a Pope living in a gold inlaid palace whilst his subjects exist in abject poverty in many lands conquered by Catholic conquistadors.
How far removed would you like to be from what Jesus Christ taught? o_O



Unfortunately the whole set up of the Catholic Church was doomed from its inception. It was never Christian to begin with. It was a fusion religion created by a pagan Emperor whose soul aim was to consolidate his divided empire with one religion. It is saturated with pagan teachings and practices that were later transferred to Protestantism because they took various aspects of the teachings of Rome and incorporated them into their many factions. Christendom is the result. Its a mess!
I can see you do not know what you're talking about. Mary was never deified. Nothing in the New Covenant condemns the religious artwork you speak of, and if you are going to use scriptures from the Old Testament , you'll have to explain why God commanded the Israelites to make a bronze Serpent , and they had to turn to it in order to be healed.

Then you have to explain where you got your authority to decide which Old Testament commands were for Christians ,and which were only for Israel , and why you only follow part of the law not the whole law.

Then you have to find the scriptures that say that the Bible is to be the sole rule of theological truth and that anything not contained in scripture is false.

Regarding Purgatory, scripture says nothing unclean shall enter Heaven. The Catholic Church's teaching that Souls must be purified before entering Heaven is not a teaching that the Bible States is untrue. Common sense would state otherwise if you truly believe that there is no sin in heaven.

Since your premise in condemning the church is unbiblical, your credibility is destroyed.
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
God is choosing citizens for his kingdom just based on being themselves.
That seems rather cruel, don't you think? To pick-and-choose who will receive eternal blessings and eternal punishment just for being yourself? We're not talking about a work crew.
Well, that's the thing. I believe that each person is tested out by being exposed to all kinds of religious beliefs.
Isn't that an unfair test though? To ask "how can we possibly know when there are so many?" but fail the test because there is no real reason other than faith in a particular religion over another? Many religions have similar claims, similar feelings and experiences, so what is the difference?
There was just one religion in the beginning and it had one Creator God and very little in the way of rules.
Christianity certainly is not this "first" religion and it's hardly the oldest. Even Judaism is not the oldest religion we have evidence for.
But something happened to challenge the position of the one God so that humans were left to choose between two.
If something can challenge god in such a profound way then god is not omnipotent.
The pretender made claims about the Creator's way of ruling so he allowed the pretender to try his best to convince humankind that he was the better god and ruler. This is why there are so many religions. The pretender was going to cater to every religious taste and try to lead people away from the true God, making things as complicated and confusing as possible.
I actually wasn't talking about other religions, but Christianity with it's thousands of denominations.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I can see you do not know what you're talking about. Mary was never deified. Nothing in the New Covenant condemns the religious artwork you speak of, and if you are going to use scriptures from the Old Testament , you'll have to explain why God commanded the Israelites to make a bronze Serpent , and they had to turn to it in order to be healed.

P-A-D, if you know the Bible, then you will know the answers to all the questions you posed here....if you don't know the answers then maybe you are listening to the wrong people.

The command by God to make the copper serpent was done according to God's will, not man's. As punishment for their complaining spirit, God sent serpents into the camps of the unfaithful Israelites. After some showed repentance, he instructed Moses to make the copper serpent and raise it up on a pole so that those who gazed on the serpent would live. (Num 21:4-9; 1Co 10:9)
The Israelites kept that copper serpent but they began to worship it as an idol. King Hezekiah made sweeping reforms in Israel and in 2 Kings 18:4 it describes how he destroyed it because of what the people were doing.
Idolatry is abhorrent to God, which is why it features in the Ten Commandments. Israel were instructed not to "MAKE" images of "anything", let alone worship them. (Ex 20:4,5)

Then you have to explain where you got your authority to decide which Old Testament commands were for Christians ,and which were only for Israel , and why you only follow part of the law not the whole law.

Jesus said he did not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it. In introducing the laws under which Christians were to live, he said...

Matt 22:35-40:
"And one of them, versed in the Law, tested him by asking: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets."

What do you see there? The "law of love" does not allow for the disciples of Christ to break the commandments of God. What was no longer required of Christian believers was observance of the ceremonial laws, dietary laws an prescribed sacrifices, because all of these things were fulfilled in Jesus. The law of love would still preclude murder, adultery, theft, etc. so the principles of the law still apply. Gentiles were under no obligation to keep the Mosiac Law.

Then you have to find the scriptures that say that the Bible is to be the sole rule of theological truth and that anything not contained in scripture is false.

When Jesus was teaching he often said "It is written" when referring to the word of God. What was "scripture" to those in the first century, was the OT because this is the only scripture they had up until that time. The teachings of Jesus and the apostles were used for Christian instruction and later became part of "All scripture" that is "inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness" (2 Tim 3:16, 17 RSVCE)

Since it is God who chooses what is contained in his word, anything outside of that is the word of men. There is nothing from outside the scriptures that is to 'teach us, reprove us, correct us, and to train us'. If there is, please show me where I will find such instruction....or the appointment of men who claim to be on a par with Christ and his apostles, who didn't put themselves in that position. Their words are not God's words.

Jesus said we would know who his real disciples were by their conduct. History is certainly not kind regarding the conduct of the Catholic Church.

Matt 7:15-20:
“Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men."

Regarding Purgatory, scripture says nothing unclean shall enter Heaven. The Catholic Church's teaching that Souls must be purified before entering Heaven is not a teaching that the Bible States is untrue. Common sense would state otherwise if you truly believe that there is no sin in heaven.

Do you know what the Bible's teaching is on the "soul"? If you did, then you would not even have to wonder about such a thing as purgatory. There is no teaching of an immaterial part of man that leaves the body at death. This is a pagan idea adopted when Greek culture was influential. The Bible's teaching is that the soul is mortal. It dies along with the body. (Ezek 18:4; Eccl 9:5, 10) There is no immortal, immaterial part of man to enter a place like purgatory in the first place.

I know that this is hard to wrap your head around when you have been taught all your life to believe that we don't really die....but that is exactly what God told Adam....NOT that he would go to a place of eternal punishment, but that he would return to where he was before God created him. (Gen 3:19)
Can I ask you where you were before your parents conceived you? Why is it so unthinkable to consider that you might return to that same state of non existence? Why is "sleeping in death" such a bad thing?

Eccl 9:10:
"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going."

"Sheol" is the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek "hades". So there is no activity in hades...no thought, knowledge or wisdom in the place to which we all go....the common grave.
Hades or "hell" as a place of conscious eternal torment is not a Bible teaching.

Yet Jesus promised his disciples everlasting life...how? By a resurrection, which means a return to life from the sleep of death. (John 5:28, 29) If you understand what the resurrection is, you will see what a ridiculous teaching an 'immortal soul' is. Jesus resurrected Lazarus...so where did Jesus say Lazarus was? Read John 11:11-14.

Since your premise in condemning the church is unbiblical, your credibility is destroyed.

I believe that my premise is completely Biblical. It is what makes the whole story of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, logical. Humans were designed to live on earth, not heaven. God already had a huge spiritual family in heaven...millions of them. He designed man to live on earth forever. But along with free will came a few 'bugs' that needed to be ironed out, so God allowed ample time for all things to be tried and tested. What God purposed in the beginning, he will carry out. (Isa 55:11)

By taking a chosen "few" to heaven to rule with Christ in his Kingdom, God ensures that we have the best rulers possible.....those who know what it is like to be human. Even as Jesus was. (Heb 4:15)

I am sorry if you find my posts challenging but please don't close your mind...the truth lurks in unlikely places sometimes. Don't forget who rules this world.....nothing is as it first appears. (1 John 5:19)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
That seems rather cruel, don't you think? To pick-and-choose who will receive eternal blessings and eternal punishment just for being yourself? We're not talking about a work crew.
Why is it cruel? God is a reader of hearts. He does not coerce people to believe in him nor to obey him. He does not want those with selfish motives to just use what he is offering to benefit themselves....he wants real devotion and commitment based on our heart's desire to know our Creator, to love him and to serve him loyally no matter what is presented as propaganda from his adversary. Those who get the reward will have earned their place in his kingdom by the exercise of their own faith in his provision for salvation....the blood of his son, who suffered extreme persecution and death without wavering. We are told to imitate him.

Isn't that an unfair test though? To ask "how can we possibly know when there are so many?" but fail the test because there is no real reason other than faith in a particular religion over another? Many religions have similar claims, similar feelings and experiences, so what is the difference?

What is unfair? Most people are looking to serve only themselves. God has no time for those who are only interested in number one. As he surveys humankind, he is looking for those who are unselfish, who care about others before themselves....who look to God for their rules rather than wanting to make their own. They are humble and compliant by nature, yet they demonstrate unshakable faith.

In the Bible there are two verses which cement for me the way God deals with us.
The first one is John 6:44:
"No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him"
This confirms to me that it is God who invites people to become footstep followers of his son. Without this "drawing" no one comes to understand God's truth.

The other is in 2 Thess 2:9-12: which speaks about those whom God's adversary is able to deceive. He calls them....
"those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."

The ones who are deluded are those who want to be. These are the ones who either craft heir own ideas and then graft them over scripture to suit themselves, or invent their very own belief system. Since they have no love of the truth, but only love their own version of it, God allows them to keep the delusion they have chosen. Is that unfair? I don't think so.

Christianity certainly is not this "first" religion and it's hardly the oldest. Even Judaism is not the oldest religion we have evidence for.

The "religion" that the first humans were to practice was not really a religion at all. It was a simple and beautiful existence uncomplicated by unnecessary rules and regulations.
Humans were to rely on their Creator to guide and direct their lives in all things, but free will gave them the opportunity to express individuality and choice in everything they did. This was of course, within the parameters set by the Creator. A knowledge of evil was kept from them for their own good. The Creator kept this knowledge to himself because he knew it would not benefit man in the least. Had the first humans trusted their Creator to know better than they did, things would have turned out very differently.

If something can challenge god in such a profound way then god is not omnipotent.

Not necessarily so. There is God's wisdom to be considered in the way he dealt with rebellion, both in his spirit sons and now in his human children. Free will carries undesirable possibilities.
The rebel who started all this never once questioned God's power....he knew better than to do that. What he challenged was God's right to set reasonable limits for his intelligent creation, and questioned his motives in keeping a knowledge of evil to himself.

If God had merely exercised his power, then what would have been achieved? "Poof" and the rebels are gone...but the questions would have remained. What was to stop another 'satan' from starting this up all over again? The only way to settle the issue once and for all, was to hand rulership over to the adversary are give him every opportunity to prove himself to be the better ruler. This is what the devil said God had done. (Luke 4:6,7) So what has been proven beyond a shadow of doubt? That humans under influence from God's adversary cannot rule this earth in any way that benefits anyone. We are not designed to rule ourselves...when you give humans power over other humans, it just corrupts them...do we not see this demonstrated every day of our miserable lives under human governments? Only God's kingdom can give us back what Adam lost. Which is why Jesus taught his disciples to pray for it.

I actually wasn't talking about other religions, but Christianity with it's thousands of denominations.
Religion is not something God introduced into the world....humans did this. God sees all false worship under one umbrella....."Babylon the great". It is a global religious empire created by the devil to take worship away from the true God. In the last book of the Bible we have God's command to his "people" (i.e. those who worship the true God in an acceptable way) He says....

Rev 18:4, 5:
Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind."

If we fail to heed this command, we will have no future.

The demise of Babylon the great is a huge event described by the angel.....

Rev 18:21-24:
"And a strong angel lifted up a stone like a great millstone and hurled it into the sea, saying: “Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again. 22 And the sound of singers who accompany themselves on the harp, of musicians, of flutists, and of trumpeters will never be heard in you again. And no craftsman who practices any trade will ever be found in you again, and no sound of a millstone will ever be heard in you again. 23 No light of a lamp will ever shine in you again, and no voice of a bridegroom and of a bride will ever be heard in you again; for your merchants were the top-ranking men of the earth, and by your spiritistic practices all the nations were misled. 24 Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

"Babylon the great" as the devil's agency is the cause of all the bloodshed down through time as those of one religious faith slaughtered those who believed in different gods.
It was religious persecution that Jesus and his apostles faced and he told them that it was to be expected. (John 15:18-21)

When God's Kingdom "comes" his will can then "be done on earth as it is in heaven".

Bring it on!!!!
 

SSDSSDSSD3

The Great Sea Under!
I already have a religion, though if I were not to believe Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was God on Earth, I probably could never let myself believe that Jesus Christ was Lord and Savior. (Despite I do believe that Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was God, it can't be equated to just changing my belief in believing that Jesus is God). Also the Bible makes very little appeal to me, with all of the Old Testament.
 
I can't get past the deification of Mary and the necessity of an intermediary between me a God for the remission of my sins.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Your job is to speak the truth? so up until 1870 God let all believers go astray and finally brought the fullness of truth by founding your denomination , a major "Johnny-come-lately" for Christianity.

When Jesus comes as judge of all the earth, he will completely reject "many" who claim him as their "Lord". Do you know why Jesus says that he "NEVER" knew these ones and why he calls them "workers of lawlessness"? (Matt 7:21:23)
It is because they are part of the weeds of false Christianity that were sown in the very early centuries. This is something Jesus and his apostles foretold. (Matt 13:36-43; 2 Pet 2:1-3; Acts 20:29, 30)

So for many centuries the "wheat" were struggling for existence among the "weeds". If they dared to question the conduct of the church, they were tortured and burned at the stake as heretics. The most heinous and unchristian conduct was in evidence in the church for centuries. Their power thoroughly corrupted them.

But God inspired Daniel to write his book over 500 years before Jesus was born. In it he writes about "the time of the end" and tells Daniel to seal up the book because nothing in it would be understood before then. Almost another 2,000 years passed before the "time of the end" was discerned. Even in Christendom, there is belief that we are living in the last days of this present age. The signs are all there. What was foretold for this time was an abundance of knowledge and a cleansing and refining of God's worshippers. (Dan 12:4, 9, 10)

What I would expect to see in this time period is a fresh start and a refining and cleansing process in the Christianity practiced by a "few"......though not the majority. (Matt 7:13, 14) 'Mainstreamers' would just continue on their merry way oblivious to the need to carry out this cleansing process.....ignoring the knowledge that God was providing in the world.

You know that you are speaking the truth how?

Jesus said we would "know the truth and that the truth would set us free"...I never knew what that freedom meant until I left Christendom with my sister. We both studied the Bible and came to the same conclusion. This is the truth!

Do those who reject your faith know that they are rejecting the truth?
No. Jesus likened these last days to the time of Noah.

Matt 24:37-39:
"For as the days of Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, 39 and they knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away, so too will be the coming of the Son of Man."

It wasn't as if they weren't warned...it was just that the warning came from a source that was not respected. They chose instead to ridicule and humiliate Noah for trying to tell them to change their ways. The flood came suddenly, without a chance to survive it. So it will be when Christ comes as judge.

But everyone has to make up their own minds.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
BTW, most theologians I have read are quite certain that "Babylon the Great" was and is a reference to the Roman Empire, which makes sense in its context and was also a cloaked term that they know was used to reference it. There is another variation whereas Paul says he's writing from "Babylonia" in Koine Greek, which is a cloaked reference to Rome, the city. This methodology of using ancient symbols is very "Jewish" and can be found throughout the Tanakh as well as in the Christian scriptures, especially Revelations.

However, if one is just reading their English-language Bible, they're likely to miss the play on words. Another such narrative that involves a play on words (and a name in this case) can be found with Jesus' question to Peter saying "Who do you say that I am?", and then Jesus' response.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
So I recently discovered I'm the only one on this website that defends Catholicism, so I figured I could start a thread on Catholicism we all could appreciate.

State your primary reason not to be Catholic. Last person to post wins :p

I personally think that there is too much focus on liturgical rubrics,Dogma, and legalism rather than focusing on Simplicity , humility, modesty, and charity. (as seen in St. Francis of Assisi , Mother Teresa, and Jesus Christ.)

I believe for me the call is to not be anything but a servant of Jesus.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
You're not the only one who defends Catholicism on this board. It's just that the other Catholics aren't very active, except for @Shiranui117. There's also @kepha31, @First Baseman, @Quiddity and a few others who chime in sometimes.

Anyway, my reasons for not really wanting to continue being Catholic are the sexual ethics teachings which I find harmful, guilt and shame inducing and non-scientific (I'm fairly liberal sexually, am not a heterosexual and am transgender), the clergy being male-only and its requirement of celibacy for all clergy, the various crimes and genocides committed in the name of the religion, the corruptions and the scandals which the hierarchy is still having issues getting a hold of letting alone rooting them out, the Vatican being entrenched in gutter politics the world over, Catholicism's unhealthily sadomasochistic and death-obsessed tendencies, the whole relic and "miracle" racket, certain theological issues (which have more to do with Christianity as a whole rather than Catholicism specifically), etc. Those are the glaring issues for me.

It appears to me that you don't just have issues with The RCC but also with God. Good luck because I believe no-one ever wins an argument with God.
 
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