Why not to be Catholic

[Katzpur]

If you don't mind could you write a bit on some specifics about why you feel this
way about J.W. & Protestants?

Well, for starters, I probably should have been more specific when I said Protestants. I was really thinking more of the really conservative, fundamentalist groups who are always telling me I'm not "a real Christian" because I'm a Mormon. I suppose this would include a lot of the evangelical Baptist and Lutheran groups as well as many non-denominational Christians. I don't like their belief that a person is instantaneously and permanently "saved" at a specific moment that he accepts Jesus as his Savior, and that it doesn't matter how a person lives their live as long as he believes in Jesus. That just doesn't fly with me. To me, these people (as a whole -- I realize there are many exceptions) are the least Christlike of any group of Christians around.

I have a LOT of respect for the J.W. people, but not so much for the dogma.

I have a number of issues with JW doctrine, but because both JWs and Mormons are so often demonized by other Christians, I used to always stick up for them when people started bashing them. I was always the first to defend them, and yet I've never had the favor returned. When Jehovah's Witnesses come to my door, they are always very polite. I take their Watchtower and read it, because I like to learn about what other people believe. But quite honestly, it's because of the JWs on this and other forums I post on that I have changed how I think about the people themselves. They seem to have a very self-righteous attitude and aren't very good at even trying to understand anybody else's position. That has turned me off to them. As far as their doctrines and practices are concerned, the shunning of people who leave the church is what turns me off most.

I tend to respect PEOPLE of all faiths but may no feel so about the faith itself.
For instance I respect the religious people that handle deadly vipers but question
their intelligence. ( whoooooo-boy!)

I may strongly disagree with the teachings of different Christian denominations, but I respect people's right to believe as they want. I love people who are staunchly committed to their own beliefs but who can be respectful and open-minded towards other people's beliefs. To me, most Catholics fit into this description. Most conservative Protestants and JWs I've personally interacted with do not.

 

[jeager106]

I must agree with your position about people being instantly and forever saved no
matter how they live their lives. What a crock. It gives some the excuse to live poorly
and feel "saved" anyway. Seen those types, self righteous thru and thru.
Some Protestants and most all J.W.'s do reek of self righteousness
to the point of being obnoxious.
Self delusion takes many forms.
Is there really one and only one true Christian path?

 

[PackJason]

Is there really one and only one true Christian path?

There are over 30 thousand different christian denominations, so you better choose wisely.

And this is of course ignoring all of the other religions and their denominations around the world.

 

[Father Heathen]

State your primary reason not to be Catholic.

The irrational and unsubstantiated beliefs that have lead to inequality and discrimination, and the institution itself covering up the sexual abuse of children and protecting the priests that preyed upon them.

 

[Spiderman]

Regarding Pedophile Priests , from the research I've done , I don't see higher percentage of Catholic priests that are pedophiles overall compared leaders of other faiths. Among Public School teachers the percentage is far far higher as well.

Those priests vowed to the church and to God that they would not do such hideous acts, so there is nothing in Catholic Doctrine that encourages such behavior. The Catholic faith severely condemns it , so I do not blame the Church , but rather individuals choosing not to adhere to their faith.

There will always be scandal in any hierarchy.

 

[PackJason]

Regarding Pedophile Priests , from the research I've done , I don't see higher percentage of Catholic priests that are pedophiles overall compared leaders of other faiths. Among Public School teachers the percentage is far far higher as well.

The difference of course being that the Catholic Church covered it up for decades and still hides and protects the Pedo-wizards.

 

[Spiderman]

The difference of course being that the Catholic Church covered it up for decades and still hides and protects the Pedo-wizards.

In the Diocese where I grew up , the Bishops took away the faculties of any priest that was accused , meaning guilty until proven innocent.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I have to say, one reason I would use as not to be Catholic is priest pediphile event. As if one sin by a hand full of priest defines the actual teachings of the Church. The church istitution (or government organization) is not Catholicism and definitely not Christianity. What this pedo-reason says is that because a hand full of priest molested children, then all priest will and the Church---teachings and congregation (THAT is the Churc) supports itl

It does not.

Think of this. I went to NY with my friend with her Church to St. Peter (I think) Cathedral in New York City). Before Mass, I went to confession.

In the booth, the priest is standing on one side of the wall and I am on the other. The only way I can talk to him is through this:

There is no way a priest could molest me or any boy for that matter when the confessional booth is about this small:

If anything, Id suffercate because there is a real door not a curtain that close us in the confessional with walls I cant stretch out fully before touching both sides.

In other words, not all priests can physically molest boys given the type of confessionals (especiallyt he old fashion ones) in many of these Churches.

Also, saying the reason one leaves the church is because of pedophiles is like my leaving the Church because one priest droped the Eucharist. Believe me, some Catholics will walk out on Mass just because of that.

In my opinion, thats not a logical reason one would blame the Church and leavve it because of the priests. Maybe they have a personal problem with priests, but as a Church--the actual Body of Christ and the faith itself not a political organization--that is so wrong

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Regarding Pedophile Priests , from the research I've done , I don't see higher percentage of Catholic priests that are pedophiles overall compared leaders of other faiths. Among Public School teachers the percentage is far far higher as well.

Those priests vowed to the church and to God that they would not do such hideous acts, so there is nothing in Catholic Doctrine that encourages such behavior. The Catholic faith severely condemns it , so I do not blame the Church , but rather individuals choosing not to adhere to their faith.

There will always be scandal in any hierarchy.

Id like to add, to be a priest you have to get a criminal check as well as see if you have been convicted of child melestation. They check if you have had any sexual promiscuity in the pass, I think,two or three years of being a priest.

The Church-the Body of Christ and its doctrines--do not cover up pedophils.

In my opinion, if the cover up is true, its through Church government. Not the priests and not Catholicism. There is a difference (to all readers).

 

[metis]

There is no guilt like Mormon guilt! You both lose.

OK, you're on, so prepare for battle, Wimp! We gotta few thousand years of finely-tuned guilt and whining, and you guys ain't nothing but immature novices!

 

[Tarheeler]

OK, you're on, so prepare for battle, Wimp! We gotta few thousand years of finely-tuned guilt and whining, and you guys are nothing but immature novices!

My wife is the office manager of a small accounting firm in Manhattan; she keeps everyone in line, including the boss, with a Jewish mom's guilt trip.
They never stood a chance.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The history of the Catholic Church is not pretty. It is rife with murder, torture, abuse, cruelty and human tradition masquerading as Christian truth.

To begin with, there was no earthly priesthood in first century Christianity. Those chosen to rule with Christ were going to be priests in heaven. (future. Rev 20:6)

There was no ritual, no veneration of Mary, no holy water, no rosary beads, no Pope, no monks, nuns or monasteries, no distinctive clothing or religious titles.

There were no cathedrals, no idolatry, no liturgy and no Mass.

IOW.....there is very little that Catholicism has in common with what Jesus started. It is a man made institution.

True, but there is hardly a single denomination, Protestant or otherwise, that would make sense to Jesus today. Many Protestant denominations have just replaced their preacher on billboards for the statues in Catholic churches.

In the same way, I see the Church learning from it's past, maturing, and seems to have come a long way. My experience with Catholicism has been Priests and Nuns who are very kind, rational thinkers, educated, articulate, insightful, and compassionate.

Indeed, it'll get there. They have only had about 2000 years or so. Better late than never

Christ told St. Francis of Assisi "rebuild my house, for it has fallen into ruin.". My hope is that there will be more people like him who will try to help the church from within rather than leave.

Indeed.

Now, for myself, not being Catholic is a bit like why I won't be a Southern Baptist, a Muslim, or any other largely de facto (I admit that at least lip service to equality may be paid) tribute to chauvinism. We are all human beings, no matter what gender you are (even outside the usual but arbitrarily created binary preferences). No one has any right to tell God not to favor certain people just because of their genitalia. It's not like Jesus is ever portayed like a bear or something. You never see him sweaty doing hard labor. You never see him doing many "manly" things. And has been noted in another thread, women were far more loyal and competent than the men were. We simply didn't deserve to get the shaft when credit was due.

 

[Spiderman]

Condemning?
I think that is simply your point of view.
I didn't invent those web sites. They have been up for years and years and Catholicism
has been debated for many centuries.

I copied and pasted some sites with a particular point of view.
Who said these sites printed.......................well.................gospel. No pun intended.
I stated facts about Catholicism. These things have been well known for a very long
time.
Even Pope Francis now denies the existence of hell as a place of eternal
torment.
“Through humility, soul searching, and prayerful contemplation we have gained a new understanding of certain dogmas. The church no longer believes in a literal hell where people suffer. This doctrine is incompatible with the infinite love of God. God is not a judge but a friend and a lover of humanity."

One wonders what happened to all those "evil souls" that the Church said
went to hell for various reasons???????

I'm NOT anti Catholic. Just pointing out the Church changes doctrine to better
suit evolving truths. It's as it should be.
Like eating meat instead of fish when the Church said no meat to be eaten.
Never did understand that one.[/ke many mistakes in make many mistakes in finding what he believes

if he didn't Define a Dogma ex cathedra He did not change Doctrine.

OK, you're on, so prepare for battle, Wimp! We gotta few thousand years of finely-tuned guilt and whining, and you guys ain't nothing but immature novices!

Jews also make the best comedians.

 

[Deeje]

I have to say, one reason I would use as not to be Catholic is priest pediphile event. As if one sin by a hand full of priest defines the actual teachings of the Church. The church istitution (or government organization) is not Catholicism and definitely not Christianity. What this pedo-reason says is that because a hand full of priest molested children, then all priest will and the Church---teachings and congregation (THAT is the Churc) supports itl

It does not.

Think of this. I went to NY with my friend with her Church to St. Peter (I think) Cathedral in New York City). Before Mass, I went to confession.

In the booth, the priest is standing on one side of the wall and I am on the other. The only way I can talk to him is through this:

There is no way a priest could molest me or any boy for that matter when the confessional booth is about this small:

If anything, Id suffercate because there is a real door not a curtain that close us in the confessional with walls I cant stretch out fully before touching both sides.

In other words, not all priests can physically molest boys given the type of confessionals (especiallyt he old fashion ones) in many of these Churches.

Where is there an accusation that Priests molested boys in the confessional? To the best of my knowledge, priests preyed on boys in Catholic institutions like orphanages and boarding schools. Their stories would make you sick. I have heard them first hand. The physical cruelty of the nuns is also a very common story. Pregnancy among the nuns was also common because the priests would tell them that they were married to the church and that they were the church. Who was going to argue? Lime pits were often found at the back of these places to dispose of the infants conceived in this way. Others were sent to orphanages. These are facts I have heard from people involved.

It isn't that the church condoned the pedophilia per se, but that it became a haven for homosexuals and pedophiles. These men became priests because of easy access to vulnerable children who could not complain about what was happening to them, not because they wanted to serve God. When a pedophile was discovered, he was often moved on to another parish where more children were to become his victims. Alter boys were apparently a prime target.

This was a systemic problem in Catholic institutions all over the world. It was not isolated incidents here and there.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Where is there an accusation that Priests molested boys in the confessional? To the best of my knowledge, priests preyed on boys in Catholic institutions like orphanages and boarding schools. Their stories would make you sick. I have heard them first hand. The physical cruelty of the nuns is also a very common story. Pregnancy among the nuns was also common because the priests would tell them that they were married to the church and that they were the church. Who was going to argue? Lime pits were often found at the back of these places to dispose of the infants conceived in this way. Others were sent to orphanages. These are facts I have heard from people involved.

It isn't that the church condoned the pedophilia per se, but that it became a haven for homosexuals and pedophiles. These men became priests because of easy access to vulnerable children who could not complain about what was happening to them, not because they wanted to serve God. When a pedophile was discovered, he was often moved on to another parish where more children were to become his victims. Alter boys were apparently a prime target.

This was a systemic problem in Catholic institutions all over the world. It was not isolated incidents here and there.

My point is Church government may or may not have covered up a hand full of priest who commited those crimes.

The Church doctrine and Christianity does not teach those handful of priests to do those things. Sorry to say, if the Popes are going against their own doctrine, I cant accuse them since it isnt my faith.

I can say that the point of the confessionals is that the issue is the sins of the handful of priest convicted not the Church and most definitely not Christianity (Jesus teachings).

 

[Deeje]

My point is Church government may or may not have covered up a hand full of priest who commited those crimes.

It wasn't a handful.

The Church doctrine and Christianity does not teach those handful of priests to do those things.

The Catholic Church does not teach what the Bible teaches at all. It never has. It is the product of the weeds of Jesus parable and the reason why he can say at the judgment..."I never knew you. Get away from me you workers of lawlessness!" (Matt 7:21-23) What does "NEVER" mean? Whose laws have they broken?

Paul spoke of those in his day who were trying to make themselves equal to the apostles....he spoke of these men as: "false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works." (2 Cor 11:13-15)

The works speak for themselves.

I can say that the point of the confessionals is that the issue is the sins of the handful of priest convicted not the Church and most definitely not Christianity (Jesus teachings).

Bringing reproach on God by conduct or teachings that are unchristian is not going to go unpunished. In her long and inglorious history, Roman Catholicism has brought nothing but reproach on God in many more ways than most others have.

Exodus 20:7: from the Complete Jewish Bible says:
“You are not to use lightly the name of Adonai your God, because Adonai will not leave unpunished someone who uses his name lightly."

As part of the Ten Commandments, this is not simply using God's name verbally but engaging in any activity that is associated with God's reputation among mankind. Bringing reproach on God by the practice of evil will bring due recompense. Do we see a repentant church? Or do we see a nice bit of PR used to deflect attention away from the continual scandal?

Can we forget the inquisition? And a succession of very wicked Popes?

Writing in A Protestant Manifesto, Winfred E. Garrison wrote: “Just how tangled this complex of power and piety can become is well illustrated by the career of that same Pius V whose attempt to depose Queen Elizabeth was an important element in the revolutionary movement which brought on the ‘martyrdom’ of some of its underground agents. He had been an officer of the Inquisition for fifteen years and so zealous that he became Grand Inquisitor before he was made pope. In the supreme office he continued his war on dissent and deviation with every possible weapon. He strengthened the machinery and stiffened the rules of the Inquisition, established the Congregation of the Index for systematic censorship, hounded hundreds of printers out of Italy, encouraged Philip II to exterminate Protestantism in the Netherlands and applauded the bloody tactics of the Duke of Alva, ordered the extermination of the Huguenots (but died three months before the St. Bartholomew’s Day massacre), denounced the emperor’s compromise with the Lutherans, tried to organize a coalition of the Catholic German states for a war of religion against the Protestants, and was a party to the plot to drive Elizabeth from the throne of England. Now he is a ‘saint’, canonized in 1712.”

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Asides from its political nature, greed, and corruption, the hellfire and brimstone nonsense, and a god that is somehow supposed to look like us, I do not believe that any religion that humans have come up with is correct. If there is a god, how can we even begin to determine the nature of such an entity or entities when we don't even factually know if there is intelligent life on other planets?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It wasn't a handful.



The Catholic Church does not teach what the Bible teaches at all. It never has. It is the product of the weeds of Jesus parable and the reason why he can say at the judgment..."I never knew you. Get away from me you workers of lawlessness!" (Matt 7:21-23) What does "NEVER" mean? Whose laws have they broken?

Paul spoke of those in his day who were trying to make themselves equal to the apostles....he spoke of these men as: "false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works." (2 Cor 11:13-15)

The works speak for themselves.



Bringing reproach on God by conduct or teachings that are unchristian is not going to go unpunished. In her long and inglorious history, Roman Catholicism has brought nothing but reproach on God in many more ways than most others have.

Exodus 20:7: from the Complete Jewish Bible says:
“You are not to use lightly the name of Adonai your God, because Adonai will not leave unpunished someone who uses his name lightly."

As part of the Ten Commandments, this is not simply using God's name verbally but engaging in any activity that is associated with God's reputation among mankind. Bringing reproach on God by the practice of evil will bring due recompense. Do we see a repentant church? Or do we see a nice bit of PR used to deflect attention away from the continual scandal?

Can we forget the inquisition? And a succession of very wicked Popes?

Writing in A Protestant Manifesto, Winfred E. Garrison wrote: “Just how tangled this complex of power and piety can become is well illustrated by the career of that same Pius V whose attempt to depose Queen Elizabeth was an important element in the revolutionary movement which brought on the ‘martyrdom’ of some of its underground agents. He had been an officer of the Inquisition for fifteen years and so zealous that he became Grand Inquisitor before he was made pope. In the supreme office he continued his war on dissent and deviation with every possible weapon. He strengthened the machinery and stiffened the rules of the Inquisition, established the Congregation of the Index for systematic censorship, hounded hundreds of printers out of Italy, encouraged Philip II to exterminate Protestantism in the Netherlands and applauded the bloody tactics of the Duke of Alva, ordered the extermination of the Huguenots (but died three months before the St. Bartholomew’s Day massacre), denounced the emperor’s compromise with the Lutherans, tried to organize a coalition of the Catholic German states for a war of religion against the Protestants, and was a party to the plot to drive Elizabeth from the throne of England. Now he is a ‘saint’, canonized in 1712.”

Um. Im talking about Catholic doctrine and Church devotion not the horridness of Church goverment all the acts that misrepresent what the Church actually teaches.

Find in Church doctrine does it say molesting boys is okay.
Find it in their Bible that your scripture is different than their scripture and that it says molesting boys is okay?

The problem is not with the Church--the Body of Christ which includes Catholics and every other Christian.

The problem is what the Church feels she has the authority to control and so forth. Thats been since the 1800s on back. Its terrible.

It is not Catholic teaching.
The handful of priest (out of thousands of priests) and Popes sins do not represent the Church. Christ represents the Church.

 

[Katzpur]

Um. Im talking about Catholic doctrine and Church devotion not the horribleness of Church goverment all the acts that misrepresent what the Church actually teaches.

Find in Church doctrine does it say molesting boys is okay.
Find it in their Bible that your scripture is different than their scripture and that it says molesting boys is okay?

The problem is not with the Church--the Body of Christ which includes Catholics and every other Christian.

The problem is what the Church feels she has the authority to control and so forth. Thats been since the 1800s on back. Its terrible.

It is not Catholic teaching.
The handful of priest (out of thousands of priests) sins do not represent the Church.

This current dialogue you're having, Carlita... Don't expect anything productive out of it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This current dialogue you're having, Carlita... Don't expect anything productive out of it.

Oh well.