why it's always ( ISLAM vs. CHRISTIANITY )

[JerryL]

Now everyone's reality is usually based on ones perception but true reality needs noone to believe in it inorder to exist. And I agree evidence is usually the best thing but is it not true we should examine ALL the evidence and all possibilities and examine the concrete facts not someones opinion.

No, not everyone's *conclusions* regarding reality are the same; and no, we should not appeal to the conclusions of others in most circumstances (It's called an appeal to authority, and it's logically fallacious).

No I am not looking for disproofs. I am just wanting to know the basis on which we define reality or truth.

Arbitration / tautology. I define reality as "the set of things real" and truth as "the state in binary logic where the equasion balances, or where the statement of fact exists in reality". How do you define them?

In science when a theory is presented it is scrutinized and tested to check validity within the natural world which is full of constants. If your thesis remains true and it has a constant physical representation of itself dealing with certain physical applications then it is accepted as fact or law then.

Not a science major I take it.

In science, when a hypothesis, fact, or law is presented it is scrutinized to see if it fits all available facts. It's then scritinized to see if it can be disproven. It is then required to offer a prediction which can be tested for and which can falsify the hypothesis. This prediction is then tested for.

If the claim is falsifiable, and if the claim meeds all the facts, and if the claim cannot be disproven, and if the claim makes predictions which can be tested for, and if they are tested for and found true, then the hypothesis can become a theorum or part of a theory.

That also can be difficult in just Googling it because you never know if the source is credibal or the individual has a real grasp on the subject because many people just look at one verse without taking in the entire context of what is being said.

True... which is why the next step is evaluating the claim. My assertion of an inconsistancy is no more useful to you than what you can google. If you find a couple bad claims in a row, move on to another website. Verify on your own.

The Question again is how do we know which one is not telling the whole truth.

fact by fact, claim by claim, through the process listed above for a hypothesis.

We can also attempt the historic standard, where the claim is judged for ordinaryness/extraordinaryness, and the supporting evidence is weighed in on the claim. If there's support sufficient in respect to the claim, and if there's no contra-indicators, then it's considered "likely".

And I never contradict the bible I let each book speak for itself.

Then you have one of two problems:
If you go for absolute reliability, nothing will meet the criteria.
If you go for a lesser standard, you risk validating two incompatable positions as true.

I am a seeker of truth it is not about me being right or wrong. is the text correct and true in all instances of what is stated and their should always a criterion on how we decide what is truth

I do it by the two processes I listed above. I've never seen a religious text that reasonably passes.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

No, not everyone's *conclusions* regarding reality are the same; and no, we should not appeal to the conclusions of others in most circumstances (It's called an appeal to authority, and it's logically fallacious).

I said reality does not need you to believe in it in order to exist and if someone reallity is not based on a tangible conclusion how can it be accepted. And brother I am not saying appeal to the conclusions of others I am saying look at what they have all the evidence, with all the knowledge we have about it and base it off that You being a intelligent person and someone who studies and is learned question everything. And not until it had proven itself to be absolutely unshakable do you accept it.

Arbitration / tautology. I define reality as "the set of things real" and truth as "the state in binary logic where the equasion balances, or where the statement of fact exists in reality". How do you define them?

I totally agree with you I need something tangible and that represents itself mathmatically in nature. All reality is as you say and I agree based on fact or what we know that has remained true without contradiction. would you agree?

Not a science major I take it.

In science, when a hypothesis, fact, or law is presented it is scrutinized to see if it fits all available facts. It's then scritinized to see if it can be disproven. It is then required to offer a prediction which can be tested for and which can falsify the hypothesis. This prediction is then tested for.

If the claim is falsifiable, and if the claim meeds all the facts, and if the claim cannot be disproven, and if the claim makes predictions which can be tested for, and if they are tested for and found true, then the hypothesis can become a theorum or part of a theory.

This is what I meant however you are much more eloquent in speech then I am. Not to mention it has been about 10 years since I have been in a lab. But literally I meant a person says this is how this happens. So they try it, test it see if it works. If it works they try another application see if it works. everyone will give the individual reasons as to why it si incorrect and all of those ideas are tested against his theory. If it fails to meet the spectics critieria on whatever application it will probably be discarded insha Allah I will ask my cousin who is in Medical Research how these things are proposed and maybe he can say it better than I

True... which is why the next step is evaluating the claim. My assertion of an inconsistancy is no more useful to you than what you can google. If you find a couple bad claims in a row, move on to another website. Verify on your own.

fact by fact, claim by claim, through the process listed above for a hypothesis.

We can also attempt the historic standard, where the claim is judged for ordinaryness/extraordinaryness, and the supporting evidence is weighed in on the claim. If there's support sufficient in respect to the claim, and if there's no contra-indicators, then it's considered "likely".

Again I totally agree with you this is the only proven logical and REALISTIC method

Then you have one of two problems:
If you go for absolute reliability, nothing will meet the criteria.
If you go for a lesser standard, you risk validating two incompatable positions as true.

I do it by the two processes I listed above. I've never seen a religious text that reasonably passes.

Only if you have not really studied it yourself. Read the Qur'an from cover to cover and then see. People have been trying for years to dissect it. There are no contradicitions in it. Have you read it. And if there are some contradicitions please forward them to me. Unfortunately I have to go but insha Allah I would love to continue this discussion. Allah has blessed you with alot of wisdom for discerning what is truth the only thing left for you to do know is seek it.

Peace

 

[Malus 12:9]

Allah has blessed you with alot of wisdom for discerning what is truth the only thing left for you to do know is seek it.

I have a question on that. If I am not Islam, how can Allah still bless me with a lot of wisdom? What if this wisdom I have been "blessed" with points me towards Christianity
being the correct religion instaed of Islam/muslim? (not that I would take up on either religion)

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I have a question on that. If I am not Islam, how can Allah still bless me with a lot of wisdom? What if this wisdom I have been "blessed" with points me towards Christianity
being the correct religion instaed of Islam/muslim? (not that I would take up on either religion)

Hello again and Brother Malus just to let you know the religion is Islam the follower is a muslim. And to answer your question. Regardless of if you submit to his will or not Allah takes care of all his Creation. It is described in his names. Allah is the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate, and The Nourisher, The Responder to Prayer and the Pardoner etc. there are 99 names we give to Allah to describe his majesty and power over his Creation. He ha0s given it everything to you and provided you with all the tools you need to seek Him and submit when you decide to because you must remember you have free will. You choose what religion you want to follow. Allah will not make you submit to him. And if Allah did not want you to seek him you would not be asking me, a muslim, any question concerning him or explaining things about him. I think it is save to say you may not be on these types forum at all. Regardless the mercy and love Allah has for you is all around you. You see Allah has wants people to know him, but they have to be searching or want to know or are at least curious whatever the intention. In other words they are putting forth some type of effort to gain knowledge. And it is the knowledge of Allah that draws one closer to him. Again to clarify Allah answers all prayers of all things but remember after it is all said and done Allah will question you about the deeds you have done because he is the Most Just and the Judge. And the question will be asked did you do them solely to please him because the blessing he has given mankind is endless. And if He the Creator gave you all these things we are told to be gracious and ask Him and Him alone for all our needs and his forgivness. Because a few of his other namers are the Provider, the Sustainer and the Originator of everything. I hope this answers your question please feel free to ask me anything concerning any issue relating to Allah, Islam, and the conduct of our beloved Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) And remember if I have made any mistakes or errors in my statements realize they are from myself and shaiton and not Allah and I ask you to for give me if I may have said anything out of line and I also ask Allah to bless me with his infinite mercy. Talk to you soon Insha Allah

Peace brother

 

[JerryL]

I totally agree with you I need something tangible and that represents itself mathmatically in nature. All reality is as you say and I agree based on fact or what we know that has remained true without contradiction. would you agree?

Not a wording choice I'd use, but "yes".

Only if you have not really studied it yourself. Read the Qur'an from cover to cover and then see. People have been trying for years to dissect it. There are no contradicitions in it. Have you read it. And if there are some contradicitions please forward them to me.

Nope. Haven't read it end to end. Don't see it as standing out from any other religious text.

I notice, for example, that the Shia and Sunni can't agree on it. I notice that some see it supporting terrorism and war, and others do not. I can see that it's not clear (something I would expect from omniscient origin).

But, let's look at one expoused contradiction and work from there.
How long did it take Allah to create the world?

6 days/periods (7:54, 10:3, 11:7, 25:29),

Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm in power; He throws the veil of night over the day, which it pursues incessantly; and (He created) the sun and the moon and the stars, made subservient by His command; surely His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah, the Lord of the worlds. - 7:54
​

or 8 days/periods (2+4+2=8 41:9-12)?

Say: What! do you indeed disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two periods, and do you set up equals with Him? That is the Lord of the Worlds. And He made in it mountains above its surface, and He blessed therein and made therein its foods, in four periods: alike for the seekers. Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth: Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said: We come willingly. So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.
​

http://www.secularislam.org/guide/mirza.htm

 

[Melody]

Do Christisnas believe that they don't need to do good things as long as they acknowledge Jesus Christ as thier savior?


Peace ...

No Christians believe that if we acknowledge Christ as our saviour, repent of our sins and accept his sacrifice as atonement for our sins then that is all it takes *but* it that our works will be a reflection of that faith.

Show me a "Christian" who continues on the same path they had before accepting Christ and I'll show you someone who probably is only fooling themself that they've accepted Christ.

 

[Melody]

And if you have the Trinity figured out please explain it to me and give me an example in mathematics where 1+1+1=1 or 3=1, Three seperate things existing together but totally seperate from themselves and one relying on the other for power and one being sent by the other.

I have no trouble believing that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one....but then I don't limit God's nature or abilities to the limits of human understanding.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Not a wording choice I'd use, but "yes".

Again your English writing skills are better than mine even though it is my first language. Sad Huh have not been in school for a long while.

Nope. Haven't read it end to end. Don't see it as standing out from any other religious text.

I notice, for example, that the Shia and Sunni can't agree on it. I notice that some see it supporting terrorism and war, and others do not. I can see that it's not clear (something I would expect from omniscient origin).

No we agree on the Qur'an which is God's word we differ unfortunately in what is accepted from the Prophets sunnah(things he said, did, or said was o.k) they have certain practices that the sunni do not acribe to. Certain ritual which were never performed by the prophet.

But, let's look at one expoused contradiction and work from there.
How long did it take Allah to create the world?

6 days/periods (7:54, 10:3, 11:7, 25:29),

Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm in power; He throws the veil of night over the day, which it pursues incessantly; and (He created) the sun and the moon and the stars, made subservient by His command; surely His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah, the Lord of the worlds. - 7:54
​

or 8 days/periods (2+4+2=8 41:9-12)?

Say: What! do you indeed disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two periods, and do you set up equals with Him? That is the Lord of the Worlds. And He made in it mountains above its surface, and He blessed therein and made therein its foods, in four periods: alike for the seekers. Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth: Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said: We come willingly. So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.
​

The only errors I see in the translation is where you stated above He blessed therin and made therein its foods in four periods but you left out Equal ie all equal periods of time and as it says Allah created the earth in two days so because he states he was putting the mountains on it he was still molding the planet together ie. still creating it because Allah states in Qur'an he uses the mountains as pegs in a bed holding the crust together being part of the contiued creation. So he created and finished creating the earth and putting everything on it in terms of its physical structure in 2 periods and the remaining 2 periods he added the sustenance because in the verse. So it took a total of 4 periods for the earth to be created with the provisions of sustences.

where you stated So he ordained them 7 heaven in two periods. But what it really means is He completed and from their creation as seven heavens in two days. So as you can see it took 2 days to create the earth and finish it and 2 more days to add the foods equaling the total period as stated in the verse 4 equal periods with the competion of mountains and adding of sustenance. and 2 days on the heavens joining them all together. And that is the only problem because you must remember it is translated from Arabic. And it is hard if you do not know Arabic or the semantics of how the Arabic language is it is difficult. But just to be sure I will call one of recognized scholars in my area just to make sure. I hope this helps please let me know if it is still unclear.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I have no trouble believing that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one....but then I don't limit God's nature or abilities to the limits of human understanding.

So my dear sister I have to ask the question then who was Jesus talking according to the scriptures on the cross. If he is God would he not be talking to himself. And who was he praying to? Himself? How can this be when one clearly calls on the other. This is what i do not understand so If you could explain it to me I would really appreciate it. Jesus says himself that the God of Israel is one God not three God tells you he is one God. But someone who is neither Jesus nor God says these three things are one. Now I am not going to say God is lying or Jesus is lying. What do you think for it is very unclear to me. How can something seperate from something else be the same thing. I would love to have you explain this to me when you have time so that I may get a better understanding of this belief system.

 

[JerryL]

The only errors I see in the translation is where you stated above He blessed therin and made therein its foods in four periods but you left out Equal ie all equal periods of time and as it says

I don't see how equal / unequal changes the claim. In point of fact, it seems that "uneqal" would me more consistant.

Allah states in Qur'an he uses the mountains as pegs in a bed holding the crust together

Yes, this "flat earth held down by mountains" is it's own error... but it's not the one bing discussed.

So he created and finished creating the earth and putting everything on it in terms of its physical structure in 2 periods and the remaining 2 periods he added the sustenance because in the verse. So it took a total of 4 periods for the earth to be created with the provisions of sustences.

You look at the same passage and interprete it in two different ways; Making two concurrent while leaving the third consecutive.

To make an analogy.

It took me two days to build my house, four days to furnish it, and two days to do the landscaping.

How many days did it take me to complete my house? You say "six", because you assume that building and furnishing overlapped, but furnishing and landscaping did not.

Other than "to make it match", how do you justify your choice to do that?

Don't like that one? How about unbelievers?

Quran-2:256: There is no Compulsion in religion….

Quran 9:
Allah and His Apostle are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.

Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the polltax (jiziya) with the hand of humility.

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them and take them captive, and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush….

8:65 O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand.
​

Of course, we can all understand it clearly and there's no disagreement because:

44:58: Verily, We have made This Quran easy in the tongue, in order that they may give heed.
​

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I don't see how equal / unequal changes the claim. In point of fact, it seems that "uneqal" would me more consistant.

Yes, this "flat earth held down by mountains" is it's own error... but it's not the one bing discussed.

Ask a geologist or a seismologist and have them show the the properties of a mountain of mountain range. Because infact the mountains do hold the crust together Go to www.harunyahya.com he has great video documentaries that shed much more light on these subject on all types of subjects. And everything is free there are about 60 vids most dvd quality and alot of audio check it out you may find it interesting.

You look at the same passage and interprete it in two different ways; Making two concurrent while leaving the third consecutive.

To make an analogy.

It took me two days to build my house, four days to furnish it, and two days to do the landscaping.

How many days did it take me to complete my house? You say "six", because you assume that building and furnishing overlapped, but furnishing and landscaping did not.

As I said I will ask my brother in religion who speaks fluent arabic to explain it to me better remember the Qur'an was revealed in arabic so the translator is trying to give it in the same context but you know that is sometimes difficult in language. I will ask him and give you better clarification. I am not a scholar I am a student. My teachers will be better at explaining this point and I will go and check some of my others books of reference it may take me some time but I will get you the clear information insha Allah.

Other than "to make it match", how do you justify your choice to do that?

Just let me ask my brothers it is how I see it and you know sometimes the way I see it is incorrect. I have to see it the way our Prophet and his Companions and the respected Scholars of Islam see it they have the most knowledge about all the books. So let me ask them as I said let me ask them for if I do not know I always ask as I stated earlier if it is not clear I will ask the respected scholars in my area to get better clarification for not just you but for myself as well. Please be patient with me.

Don't like that one? How about unbelievers?

Quran-2:256: There is no Compulsion in religion….

Quran 9:
Allah and His Apostle are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.

Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the polltax (jiziya) with the hand of humility.

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them and take them captive, and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush….

8:65 O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand.​

this all makes more sense if you knew the history of The Prophet and what was done to him and his followers up until the time these verses of the Qur'an were revealed because it was over the course of 23 years he recieved revelations and it was only up until their was nothing else to do but fight the ones who were oppressing them. the disbelievers whom Allah is referring to are those disbelievers who torrtured, imprisoned, oppressed, forced from their own lands and murdered the companions of the Prophet. Not you or just anyone else who does not accept Islam if you would learn who the Prophet was and his character and how he treated all people especially those who were not of his faith it would become more clear. We cannot convert people by the sword this is not what out Prophet did and we are to do only as he did if he did not do it it is not permissable but you know as I do there are always people in the religion who always transgress the limits. So again if you have not killed any muslims stopped them from praying,stopped them from fasting, starved their families or just oppressed them you are not a disbeliever. The only one who decides that is Allah and asa you can see there is a certain criterion for what is a disbeliever.
​

Of course, we can all understand it clearly and there's no disagreement because:

44:58: Verily, We have made This Quran easy in the tongue, in order that they may give heed.
​

and as I said it is easier if you understand the arabic and some brothers are better in speech than I am. so please allow me the chance to ask them. I will get your answers insha Allah and I am only telling you what I know. There are muslims out there who are much more advanced in knowledge then I am that is what I meant in an earlier post by asking the scholars or getting all references from the most knowledgable source.

 

[TashaN]

or 8 days/periods (2+4+2=8 41:9-12)?

Say: What! do you indeed disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two periods, and do you set up equals with Him? That is the Lord of the Worlds. And He made in it mountains above its surface, and He blessed therein and made therein its foods, in four periods: alike for the seekers. Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth: Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said: We come willingly. So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.


​

Hi JerryL, regarding to your confusion about this verses and how it mentioned in here as 8 and the verse before 6 days.

Actually we all know that it's 6 days from the first verse you mentioned.

Nevertheless, because my first language is arabic so i would like to explain somthing about arabic and i hope that it may clear things for you.

the letter ( و ) means ( and ) & ( ثم ) means i guess ( Then ) in english and it's very important in arabic and it's a special case which it normal to use among arabs.

when God says: and do you set up equals with Him? That is the Lord of the Worlds. And He made ... ( here And ( و ) means that together or somthing releated to each other )

but when God says:... alike for the seekers. Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor ... ( here Then ( ثم )means somthing new or somthing different that the one before but not like what and do that means somthing equal to it or releated to it).

 

[JerryL]

Ask a geologist or a seismologist and have them show the the properties of a mountain of mountain range. Because infact the mountains do hold the crust together Go to www.harunyahya.com he has great video documentaries that shed much more light on these subject on all types of subjects. And everything is free there are about 60 vids most dvd quality and alot of audio check it out you may find it interesting.

Umm. No... and "go ask a geologist" is not a cite.

There are basically two methods by which mountains can be created: they can be grown by volcanic actifity or they can be caused by an upthrusting of the tectonic plate.

Now there are several causes and types of upthrusting. The subduicting of one plate under another can cause a buildup (like the wake in front of a boat), or the collision of two plates can cause material to rise (the Hymilayias were created this way when India collided with Asia), or they can "buckle" (generally making hills).

In none of these instances do they anchor anything to anything else.

Ask a geologist or a seismologist and have them show the the properties of a mountain of mountain range. Because infact the mountains do hold the crust together Go to www.harunyahya.com he has great video documentaries that shed much more light on these subject on all types of subjects. And everything is free there are about 60 vids most dvd quality and alot of audio check it out you may find it interesting.

If you are fully fluent in neither English nor Arabic, you have set quite a task for yourself.

Just let me ask my brothers it is how I see it and you know sometimes the way I see it is incorrect. I have to see it the way our Prophet and his Companions and the respected Scholars of Islam see it they have the most knowledge about all the books. So let me ask them as I said let me ask them for if I do not know I always ask as I stated earlier if it is not clear I will ask the respected scholars in my area to get better clarification for not just you but for myself as well. Please be patient with me.

You may also want to ask why a devout Muslim would have difficulty with a perfect, divinely written book which claims to be "easy in the tongue"

this all makes more sense if you knew the history of The Prophet and what was done to him and his followers up until the time these verses of the Qur'an were revealed because it was over the course of 23 years he recieved revelations and it was only up until their was nothing else to do but fight the ones who were oppressing them. the disbelievers whom Allah is referring to are those disbelievers who torrtured, imprisoned, oppressed, forced from their own lands and murdered the companions of the Prophet.

So there was not a single non-Muslim anywhere in the region who was not doing so? Not one?

What about those with whom they had peace agreements? The passage goes on to say "honor the agreement till it's done then go kill them if they don't convert" [paraphrased].

We cannot convert people by the sword this is not what out Prophet did

Except in book 9 of the Quran, where people were killed unless they converted.

So again if you have not killed any muslims stopped them from praying,stopped them from fasting, starved their families or just oppressed them you are not a disbeliever.

Actually, it says "slay the idoloters".

But it still begs the question. You'd not kill the opressors who converted to Islam, but would kill an opressor who (for example) converted to Buddism and stopped opressing. It was not "stop or die" it was "convert or die"... and again, I can find no reason to believe that a 5-year-old opressed them; and yet I see no exceptions by age.

 

[JerryL]

the letter ( و ) means ( and ) & ( ثم ) means i guess ( Then ) in english and it's very important in arabic and it's a special case which it normal to use among arabs.

It's being hard to delve into; but you may have a valid response. Perhaps it would be more useful to move to a different contradiction (though my favorites are with reality, not internal).

 

[TashaN]

Don't like that one? How about unbelievers?

Quran-2:256: There is no Compulsion in religion….

Of course anyone can choose whether to enter to Islam or not and for a simple example i can't force Jerryl to enter to islam or to force anyone in my family for example too to enter to islam unless they really want it.

Quran 9:


Allah and His Apostle are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.

Here you will find that God makes it clear for human beings to believe or to not do so because no Compulsion in religion (direct message to prophet to not force anyone to convert to islam) but if they refused to believe so in the hereafter God will punish them but God will leave them to enjoy in thier life until death knock thier door.

Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the polltax (jiziya) with the hand of humility.

this verse occured when prophet Mohamed (PBUH) was in the middle of a war between muslims and non muslims and he ordered him to fight because he was waiting the order from God to fight when non muslims started to gather to attack muslims at that time. Then ( and we still in the condition of war only ) he told prophet Mohamed to take jiziya from non muslims and ( to not kill them if they surrender ) bevcause at that time any king was just destroying his enemy and colonizing thier land, women and money. Nevertheless, In islam we can't do like that but ( as long as muslims are powerfull and can destroy and make them convert by force but they didn't do so ) but they make peace with them if they refused islam, making a deal with them to not attack muslims and to pay the tax ( all in the condition of war ) because as history books tell us that jews were living side by side with muslims in madina ( a city in saudi arabia now ) and he didn't harm them because they didn't attack muslims.

However, nowdays millions of christians ( arabs ) are living among us since thousand of years and no one killed them as many think so wrongly about Islam.

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them and take them captive, and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush….

Here we can see that God mentioned the sacred months because arabs in general whether muslisms or non muslisms weren't fighting in these holy months and there was a deal between muslims and non muslims to not fight in these holy months too but the problem came when non muslims gathered in these holy months side by side with other groups of non muslims to fight muslims so then God told prophet Mohamed to HOLD until these months passed then to attack them directly after that.

However, you forgot my friend to finish the verse because you in Quran we can't take few words from the Quran out of the whole verse and the complete verse is:

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful".

Direct order from Allah the most mercifull to stop fighting once they repent.

8:65 O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand.

"in the condition of war only at the time of Prophet Mohamed (PBUH)"



Peace ...

​

 

[TashaN]

You may also want to ask why a devout Muslim would have difficulty with a perfect, divinely written book which claims to be "easy in the tongue"

my brother here is just trying to be humble and to find the best way to explain for you because in Islam the one who is not capable to give advices in religion trying to bring ideas and conclusions from his mind only which may not be the right answer or doubt it at least so he should ask guidance from people whom have this knowldge and the scholars to not assume or explain which is not really what islam says.

But it still begs the question. You'd not kill the opressors who converted to Islam, but would kill an opressor who (for example) converted to Buddism and stopped opressing. It was not "stop or die" it was "convert or die"... and again, I can find no reason to believe that a 5-year-old opressed them; and yet I see no exceptions by age.

It wasn't convert or die at all and as i told you in my pervious post that we still have Arabs-Christians in the middle of muslims contires and no one killed them.

It was only at that time in the condtion of war and prophet was asking them to convert to Islam or to pay tax and it wasn't at all as you just explained claiming that it's convert or die.

 

[JerryL]

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful".

Direct order from Allah the most mercifull to stop fighting once they repent.

Repent from what? What if their religion doesn't have regular prayers and charity? It seems this passage is saying "repent of their idolotry" (which is to say "convert"). Note also that all those are in the same passage.

"Kill the infedels" but "don't fight on the holy months, wait till after" and "don'ty violate your treaty, wait till it expires".

 

[TashaN]

Repent from what? What if their religion doesn't have regular prayers and charity? It seems this passage is saying "repent of their idolotry" (which is to say "convert"). Note also that all those are in the same passage.

"Kill the infedels" but "don't fight on the holy months, wait till after" and "don'ty violate your treaty, wait till it expires".

Hi again JerryL,

as i explained for you in my pervious post this happened in a special event during the time of Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) when the enemies gathered to fight and God ordered Prophet Mohamed to Hold until the holy months passed then to reply to non muslims attack whom breaked the deal they made with muslims to live in peace especially in these holy months. Then, muslims went to fight them asking them to be muslims and if they did so then muslims should leave them in peace.

the prayer and charity in the verse means the regular acts that muslims do like praying and charity.

 

[JerryL]

Right. God said "there is to be no compulsion in religion", but then, at a special time, God say "make them convert or die". It's hyocritical and contradictory to the standard.

 

[Ori]

Right. God said "there is to be no compulsion in religion", but then, at a special time, God say "make them convert or die". It's hyocritical and contradictory to the standard.

Thats a bold statement, be careful...