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why it's always ( ISLAM vs. CHRISTIANITY )

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by TashaN, Aug 19, 2005.

  1. Malus 12:9

    Malus 12:9 Temporarily Deactive.

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    Question: Does it really matter what or how we think of Jesus?

    Christians have their ways of believing how Jesus was/is.
    Islam have their ways of believing how Jesus was/is.

    Now, this is the kind of debate that can go on forever. By reading over this thread
    (and yes it is an interesting one), I have seen that no amount of quotes or statements will
    change the other person's opinion/belief on Jesus.

    One will say this, another will say that, but in the end, everyone will seeimingly still maintain their original opinion on Jesus.
     
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  2. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    The answer to that question depends on the reality. If Jesus was the God, and if the only way to heaven is belief in Jesus as God (as held by many Christians), then belif Jesus was a prophet condems you to hell. If, on the other hand, Jesus was a prophet, then elevating him to God is idolotry and you are going to hell.
     
  3. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    Very well stated Jerryl, so what did he say he was I guess is the question. Because hsi people called him and prophet and others call him God who is correct.
     
  4. Malus 12:9

    Malus 12:9 Temporarily Deactive.

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    Yeah, but to each person, their way of believing Jeseus is real to them.
     
  5. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    So? What does that have to do with anything?

    Assuming the fundamentalist Christian (for example), all but one of those "ways of eblieving in Jesus" will result in an eternity of suffering in hell.

    Does it really matter if you spend eternity in paradise or suffering unbearable torment?
     
  6. Malus 12:9

    Malus 12:9 Temporarily Deactive.

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    Question: Does it really matter what or how we think of Jesus?
    The answer to that question depends on the reality. If Jesus was the God, and if the only way to heaven is belief in Jesus as God (as held by many Christians), then belif Jesus was a prophet condems you to hell. If, on the other hand, Jesus was a prophet, then elevating him to God is idolotry and you are going to hell.

    That is how you see it right? It's the real way YOU see it. I see it a different way.



    And what does THAT have to do with anything. Geez, if you really want to look intelligent, why are you always trying to correct me? :biglaugh: Go argue with Jayhawker or
    michel or someone who knows what they are talkin about, lol.

    And what religion are you?:areyoucra
     
  7. Darkdale

    Darkdale World Leader Pretend

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    J = Jesus
    G = God
    B = Belief in Jesus as God
    H = Heaven
    P = Jesus was a Prophet

    Assumption "A"
    If Jesus is God, then those who believe Jesus is God go to Heaven.
    J = G --> B = H

    Assumption "B"
    If Jesus is a Prophet, then it is not true that Jesus is God and People that Believe Jesus is God do not go to Heaven.
    P -> ~(J = G) & (B = ~H)

    Therefore? hmm What's our conclusion? Can anyone help me set up a proof to see if this passes the test of logic? Are these Premises accurately represented?

    Therefore.... damnit, I can't think of a logical conclusion to this dilemma. Jayhawk? Michael? Anyone?

    If these two propositions are true, what logically follows?

    It's been a few years since I've taken polyadic calculus.
     
  8. Malus 12:9

    Malus 12:9 Temporarily Deactive.

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    I don't believe people will go to heave, or hell, regardless of their beliefs.

    J = G --> B also -->0

    I think the answer you want is P G and B-->H, but also P-->H
     
  9. Darkdale

    Darkdale World Leader Pretend

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    I need a conclusion that would follow from the above assumptions being true, However, to do this, I think I have to make another assumption, such as:

    Jesus is God. or Jesus is a Prophet. or Jesus is neither God or a Prophet.

    *edited* Thinking about it, if I don't assume one of the above three, then I don't have enough information to work the problem. But whether or not one of the above three is true is the problem, so logic isn't going to help. damn.
     
  10. Dentonz

    Dentonz Member

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    It's been a day since my last post on this subject, so I'm a little behind. I didn't say that Muslims believe Jesus was a fool. What I said was, Jesus said he was God. He never said he was a prophet. So if a man says that he is God and he's not then he is a liar and a fool. So, I ask again. How can someone' s true faith teach them to believe a false prophet?

    To clarify, I am a christian I believe that Jesus is God. And the only writings I know about on the subject of Jesus is the Holy Bible. If you believe any of the Bible to be truth, you have to believe the whole thing or the whole thing is in vain.
     
  11. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    i do respect all religions but would you mind to help me out in here by telling me where did Jesus said that he is a God in the bible?

    our prophet Mohammed told us about the injeel and that we don't have to accept it all and we don't have to reject all too as many christians do so nowdays becuse they just believe in the most logical and accurate for them and they leave the rest as many told me so in RF.
     
  12. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure I follow. How do you see it?

    Let's assume for a moment that the Bible is literally correct; that there is a singular God who created everything, and had a son on Earth, and that when we die, if we believe in the Jesus of the Bible, we go to eternal paradise; and if we do not, we go to eternal suffering.

    Now your question: "Does it really matter how we think of Jesus".

    Given that the above is true, thinking of Jesus as the real son of God means eternity in paradise, and thinking of him any other way means eternity in hell. Whether that distinction really matters is not something I can answer for you.

    You assert that you see this a different way. Given my presupposition, what difference do you see? If there really is a Jehovia, and he really had a son Joshua, and the only way to heaven is to believe in his sacrifice, and the only alternative is hell; how do you see the importance of that belief differently from me?

    (I can reverse all this for a Muslim position if you like).

    I think the reality is that you don't believe either is the case. You have your own belief (panthiest perhaps?) which makes belief in Jesus moot. That's fine if you're right, but you have asked others for their answers; which will be based on the assumption that they are right.

    Exactly my point. If you are right then it does not matter; but, If you are wrong and the Christians are rightthen you are going to spend eternity in hell.

    Your question: Does it really matter how we think of Jesus
    The Answer: That depends on who'se right.
     
  13. Malus 12:9

    Malus 12:9 Temporarily Deactive.

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    According to the Christians, yes. I shall await their valid proof that I am going to go in the hell that which they believe.
     
  14. Malus 12:9

    Malus 12:9 Temporarily Deactive.

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  15. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    Please give me the verse where he says I am God. and if Jesus was God who was he praying to and talking to. Was he praying to himself.
     
  16. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    I doubt it will do any good... but how about these verses?

    Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, "you shall not tempt the Lord your God" in reference to Himself.


    Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God when He declares, "You heard it said...but I say to you.."

    Matt. 7:21-22; Luke 6:46 - not everyone who says to Jesus, "Lord, Lord." Jesus calls Himself Lord, which is God.

    Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48 - Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sins.

    Matt. 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 - Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath." He is the Lord of God's law which means He is God.

    Matt. 18:20 - Jesus says where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them.

    Matt. 21:3; Luke 19:31,34 - Jesus calls himself "Lord." "The Lord has need of them."

    Matt. 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:70 - Jesus acknowledges that He is the Son of God.

    Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said He is with us always, even unto the end of the world. Only God is omnipresent.

    Mark 14:36 - Jesus calls God "Abba," Aramaic for daddy, which was an absolutely unprecedented address to God and demonstrates Jesus' unique intimacy with the Father.

    Luke 8:39 - Luke reports that Jesus said "tell how much God has done for you." And the man declared how much Jesus did.

    Luke 17:18 - Jesus asks why the other nine lepers did not come back to give praise to Him, God, except the Samaritan leper.

    Luke 19:38,40 - Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. If these were silent, the very stones would cry out.

    John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. The Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God. This is why Jesus was crucified.

    John 5:21-22 - Jesus gives life and says that all judgment has been given to Him by the Father.

    John 5:23 - Jesus equates Himself with the Father, "whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."

    John 6:38 - Jesus says, "For I have come down from heaven."

    John 8:12 - Jesus says "I am the light of the world." - 1 John 1:5 - God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.

    John 8:19 - Jesus says, "if you knew me, you would know my Father also."

    John 8:23 - Jesus says that He is not of this world. Only God is not of this world.

    John 8:58 - Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I AM." Exodus 3:14 - "I AM" means "Yahweh," which means God.

    John 10:18 - Jesus says He has the power to lay down His life and take it up again - Gal. 1:1 - God raised Jesus to life.

    John 10:30 - Jesus says, "I and the Father are one." They are equal. The Jews even claimed Jesus made Himself equal to God. Jesus' statement in John 14:28, "the Father is greater than I," cannot contradict John 10:30 (the Word of God is never in conflict). Jesus' statement in John 14:28 simply refers to His human messianic role as servant and slave, which He, and not the Father or the Holy Spirit, undertook in the flesh.

    John 10:36 - again, Jesus claims that He is "the Son of God."

    John 10:38; 14:10 - "the Father is in me and I am in the Father" means the Father and Son are equal.

    John 12:45 - Jesus says, "He who sees Me sees Him who sent Me." God the Father is equal to God the Son.

    John 13:13 - Jesus says, "You call me Teacher and Lord and you are right for so I AM."

    John 14:6 - Jesus says "I am the way, and the truth and the life." Only God is the way, the truth and the life.

    John 16:15 - Jesus says, "all things that the Father has are Mine." Jesus has everything God has which makes Him God.

    John 16:28 - Jesus says that "He came from the Father and has come into the world."

    John 17:5,24 - Jesus' desire is for us to behold His glory which He had before the foundation of the world.

    John 20:17 - Jesus distinguishes His relationship to the Father from our relationship by saying "My Father and your Father."

    Rev. 1:8 - God says He is the "Alpha and the Omega." In Rev. 22:13, Jesus also says He is the "Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end." The only possible conclusion one can reach is that Jesus is equal to the Lord God.

    Rev. 1:17 - Jesus says again, "I am the First and the Last." This is in reference to the God prophesied by Isaiah in Isaiah 44:6, 41:4, 48:12.

    Rev. 1:18 - Jesus, the First and the Last, also says "I died, and behold, I am alive for evermore." When did God ever die? He only did in the humanity of Jesus Christ our Lord and God. Rev. 2:8 - Jesus again says, "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life." When did God die and come to life? In our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
     
  17. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    I think he needs more Scott. That wasn't enough..:biglaugh:

    ~Victor
     
  18. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Hehe.... how about some Old and New Testament Parallels of God the Father and God the Son:
    Exodus 3:14 - God says "I AM who I AM" - John 8:58 - Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I AM" in reference to Himself.

    Deut. 4:2; 12:32 - the Lord God commands that we not add or take away from His word - Rev. 22:18-19 - Jesus so commands us not to add or take away from His word.

    Deut. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6 - the Lord kills and makes alive again and raises up - John 5:21 - the Son raises and gives life.

    Deut. 32:39 - neither is there any that can deliver out of God's hand - John 10:28 - nor shall any pluck out of Jesus' hand.

    Deut. 32:43 - rejoice, ye heavens, with Him, and let all the angels of God worship Him - Heb. 1:6 - the "Him" is Jesus the Son.

    2 Sam. 22:3 - God is the horn of salvation - Luke 1:68-69 - Jesus is the horn of salvation.

    Psalm 19:7 - the law of the Lord is perfect - Gal. 6:2 - fulfill the law of Christ.

    Psalm 24:10 - the Lord is the King of glory - 1 Cor. 2:8 - Jesus is the Lord of glory.

    Psalm 45:7 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. God calls someone else God. This someone else is His eternally begotten Son - Heb. 1:9 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. cf. Heb. 1:8, 10.

    Psalm 62:12 - the Lord God renders to each according to his work - Matt. 16:27; Rev. 22:12 - Jesus so renders to each according to his work.

    More?
     
  19. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    So where is the verse where he said clearly I am God worship me. These verses are implied not literally because different Christians look at them differently. And if Jesus is God who was he praying to and talking to on the cross according to the scriptures
     
  20. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    You explain to me why I need one... use the Bible please, to keep things on equal footing.:)
    Every Muslim interprets every verse of the Koran the same way? :rolleyes:
    God the Father.... he is God the Son, second person of the Divine Trinity.... did that help?
    :D
     
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