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why it's always ( ISLAM vs. CHRISTIANITY )

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by TashaN, Aug 19, 2005.

  1. flacsmada

    flacsmada Member

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    I have talked to many different people on the topic of islam. Muslims mostly and your right i could be wrong but that is the thing everyone of them said. Now for my own research besides the well respected people ive talked to all muslims say they believe in a merciful god and that is what gets them into heaven, but when they boil it down the fact remains that you must do more good things than bad to be allowed into heaven as a so to speak cosmic scale. Therefore that is why i said this. Sorry if I am wrong about this, but if you don't mind telling me exactly how it is you get into heaven from your faith's perspective i would love to know, so i won't be as misinformed.
     
  2. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    Do you believe that Jesus may referring to himself when we read in the OT "You shall have no other God but me" or he was God "The Father" from your point view?

    Do Christisnas believe that they don't need to do good things as long as they acknowledge Jesus Christ as thier savior?


    Peace ... :)
     
  3. flacsmada

    flacsmada Member

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    Do Christisnas believe that they don't need to do good things as long as they acknowledge Jesus Christ as thier savior? (sorry dont know how to the the quote thing)

    I as a follower of Christ don't believe anything is needed except a heart humbled and a converstation with God. After that you can tell their "fruits" by there actions(which will show in a person indwelled with the Holy Spirit) The good things are irrelevent only the things done following God's will by listening to His voice matter. All these things aren't salvation though as i said in the first sentence salvation comes from Christ gift/price alone and all we do is acknowledge Him as Lord.
     
  4. flacsmada

    flacsmada Member

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    Do you believe that Jesus may referring to himself when we read in the OT "You shall have no other God but me" or he was God "The Father" from your point view? (someones got to show me how to do the quote thing)

    Jesus claims(and is) to be God so either(as c.s. lewis said) you think He is a lier, a lunitic, or He is Lord there is no middle grownd. I believe He is Lord and so yes He is referring to Himself and i believe Jesus and God are one being with three seporate personifications(maybe identities would fit better) either way Jesus is God and God the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God and all of them are the same being. It took me forever to figure that one out.
     
  5. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    I am a Christian, I believe Jesus is who he said he was, and that he died to pay for our sins. I find no other religion where anyone died and rose again, and told the future accurately (prophecy), to prove it true. I find no one else who paid for our sins but Jesus.

    I do not do good works to earn my way to heaven or to get saved or keep saved. I do good works because it is God IN me who works them out in me BECAUSE I have accepted the free, undeserved gift of eternal life by simply believing in, or trusting in what Jesus did on the cross for me.

    I simply find no other name given by which we may be saved, no other who ever lived that could forgive sins. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me." I love everyone regardless of their religion, and I love them enough to tell them the truth, whether they believe me or not. I will not force them by the sword or anything else to believe, I only preach the truth of God's word, take it or leave it.
     
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  6. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    Just curious how can it be cultural when he is giving you quoted scripture from the book Christians get their doctrine from.
     
  7. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    well stated joeboonda, Amen :clap
     
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  8. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately Jesus (pbuh) was not the only one in history who to have had 12 disciples, died and rose again, and reproved the world of sin. A little history will tell tyou that there were many with the same characteristics as him. Here are some:

    Adad of Assyria
    Baal of Phoenicia
    Buddha fo India
    Hesus of the Druids(very similar in spelling)
    Horus,Osiris, and Serapis of Egypt
    Krishna fo India
    Mithra fo Persia
    Odin of Scandinavians
    Thor of the Gauls
    Zoroaster of Persia

    Just to give you some detail on a couple
    Buddha was born to the virgin Maya, who was considered Queen of Heaven, He crusted a serpents. head, he had 12 disciples, He performed miracles, healed the sick, fed 500 men from a small basket of cakes and walked on water, He preached the establishment of the kingdom of righteousness. He taught chatity, temperance, tolerance and equality of all. He was transfigured on the mount. He was crucified for sin-atonement,suffered 3 days in hell and was resurrected. He was called the Good Sheoard the Carpenter, the Infinite and Everlasting. He was also called the Savior of the World and The Light of the world.

    Horus the Sun God of Egypt was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave, his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by the three wise men. He was a child teacher in the Temple and was baptized when he was 30 years old. He had 12 disciples. He performed miracles and resurrected El-Azar-us from the dead(similar to Lazarus). He walked on water and was transfigured on the mount. He was crucified, buried in a tomband resurrected. He was Called The Way, THe Truth, The Light, The Messiah, God's Anointed Son, The Son of Man, The Good Shepard, The Lamb of God, and The Word. He was the Fisher of men and his personal epithet was "Iusa"the "ever-becoming son of "Ptah", the "Father"

    Mithra the Sun God of Persia was born on December 25th, He wsa considered a great teacher and master. He had 12 disciples and performed miracles. He was buried in a tomb and after 3 days he rose again. His resurrection was celebrated every year. He was called the Good Shepard and he was considered the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redemmer, The Savior, The Messiah. He was identified with the Lion and the Lamb. His sacred day was Sun-day to commemorate the worship of the "Son" I mean Sun. Mithra had a principal festival to commermorate the Spring Solistce which was later to becomeEaster at which time he was resurrected. And his religion as a part of their dogma had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper."

    As you can see all of these religions precede Jesus in time but all of these religions were just Sun worship which if we know as people who are the followers of the Semitic faiths that this is worshipping Lucifer. If you look into Astro-theology all these things will become much clear. Keep in mind all of these supposed God's were son's of God and they worshipped them according to the position of the Zodiac. Now the Bible condemns this but there is a mention of it in the scriptures I can't remember the verse now but I will find it for you. But go to Malachi 4:2 and read the verse concerning the Sun or Son and it is not a typo. The only religion which does not worship anything as a part of the Creators creation is Islam. Because the first commandment in Exodus in to not worship any God other than God. Nothing from the likeness of the Heaven(sun,moon,stars,etc.) the Earth(living creatures, men, plants etc.) or in the Sea(fish, whales, aquatic plants,etc.) and If you listened to Jesus he said to keep the commandments till all be fulfilled but the dogmas of most religions adhere to certain things which are in a direct contradiction to this very important Commandment. Because God not Jesus says in Isaih 43-10 that he is your only saviour. Research all you can and Insha Allah if you want to know the truth Allah will guide you to the answers.
     
  9. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    Please give me the verses where Jesus says he is God and if Jesus and God are one Being who was he talking to according to the scriptures on the cross. I am just curious was he talking to himself. And Jesus also says the father is greatere than I. And if you have the Trinity figured out please explain it to me and give me an example in mathematics where 1+1+1=1 or 3=1, Three seperate things existing together but totally seperate from themselves and one relying on the other for power and one being sent by the other.
     
  10. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    I second Glasgwchick's comment; amen.
     
  11. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    The only way to truly understand is to ask if you want to know I am sure myself or any of the brothers would be glad to tell you about it. If not there is a movie you can rent, download or purchase called The Message starring Anthony Quin it gives you good historical accounts on how and why Islam (submission to God) came. But if you are interested please let me know. The only way to know is to ask.
     
  12. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    I'm sure if there were a right proportion of people here, the argument could be ISLAM vs. HINDUISM. But that all depends where you are. Theres a large western audience in this forum.
     
  13. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    How can you say that why should Muslims believe in these things when the one you claim to worship never stated these dogmas you believe in. Allah says the closest to us in our religion is the Christians the only real parting of the ways is that you give divinity to Jesus. You also said we go to Heaven on our deeds no Muslim even the prophet will not get to Paradise on his deeds it is only through the Creators infinite mercy that one can achieve this goal. But you achieve it by submitting to his commands, ie. performing your obligatory duties praying, fasting, being kind to others, giving charity, taking care of those who are in need and constantly putting the Creator and your brothers in sisters ahead of one's self. And even you as a christian are my brother we must give 70 excuses for our brother before you try to pass judgement which means no matter how we are treated by our brother we must always forgive him. Also the Qur'an was not written by Muhammed (pbuh) a man who could not read or write, and it was actually more than 1400 years ago when the revelation was given to him. And you also stated that the bible was written by many authors very soon after Jesus (pbuh) when in actuality the oldest scriptures are dated more than 300 years after Jesus and none of the 250,000 manuscripts in the Vatican which is where are the manuscipts are kept are the same. All written by different authors who's identity's are unknown and they contradict each other. You also state that Christianity was founded on the belief of atonement. When actuallity this belief did not come about till 325 a.d. at the Council of Nicea when Emperor Constantine changed the views to the Trinity from the unitarian belief ie. the belief in one God and Jesus as a prophet. The sriptures make alot of claims and alot of these claims contradict themselves. There are many contradictions in the bible. And yes if you base your belief on what is contained in the bible all the things you said are true about the atonement etc. the problem is the bible says other verses to. Muslims believe as the bible says in Isaih 43:10 God almighty is one and the only one to worship and the only one who can save you and yes the bible says Jesus is the saviour but someone is lying because both statements can not be correct. That is the muslims confusion on the issue and that is why the Qur'an came to clear up the contradictions made. Because Allah says in the Qur'an that any book from him would be totally free of all contradictions. The bible in it current forms has been changed many times most Christians do not know but the original King James had 80 Books and in 1885 the Bishop of Cantebury took out the considered "Apocrypha" scriptures. Who gave this man the right to alter your word of God. We just feel that no man has the right to change God's word and scholars will tell you that many of the claims in dogma such as trinity, atonement, crucifiction were never stated by Jesus himself or any of his disciples. If you have these scriptural references please forward them to me. There are many things Christians do not know about there religion because and maybe you are the exception they do not know or study or really read the bible. So many and as I said you may be an exception do not even know really what the bible says or who stated it or when it was stated. The Christians argue on who is correct Mormons say this JehovahW. say this Catholics, Protestant all haveing different books with different dogmas all claiming to be the book of God. If Jesus is God which many believe and I am not saying you ascribe to this dogma and the bible is his words why in the red letter bible out of 66 books formerly 80 chapters only 7 have red letters in them. We just want the Christians to accept the Truth given to man by God. If you mix truth with one percent falsehood is it still the truth. Muslims say no and we say God does not inspire books filled with truth and falsehood causing confusion because your bible states in Corinthians that God is the author of confusion but of peace if you have an arabic translation of the bible it will state peace as Islam. Study and ask questions find out from the scholars in your religion because they are considered to be the experts. May Allah Guide you and give you the desire to search for the truth

    Salam
     
  14. Malus 12:9

    Malus 12:9 Temporarily Deactive.

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    I wish to ask on that.

    My mother has a large range of Bible videos. Why would they be considered wrong compared to your Anthony Quinn movie?
     
  15. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    The movie I am refering to is not bible based. It is a movie based on and approved by Islamic scholars and historians based on the life of Prophet Mohammed(pbuh). I am not sure which movies you are refering to where they may be wrong. I just may not be aware of any other moive about Islam and specifically the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). This movie details his life and how his prophetic mission started and the reasons behind it based on authentic and carefully scrutinized hadiths and of course Qur'an. I do not recall me saying that any other movie is wrong and if I did I must apologize. Please forgive me for my error if I did state that and may Allah forgive me as well. Since you stated you have no real knowledge of Islam and its teachings the only real way someone can learn about true Islam is to read Qur'an and learn about the man, Prophet Mohammed (pbuh),who gave us God's word. And if you did not want to read all the various hadiths and Qur'an or ask a Muslim brother and you wanted a faster medium inorder to gather the information this movie is the best for you. Because you must remember Allah states in the Qur'an there are 73 different groups of Muslims, 72 groups of Christians, and 71 groups of Jews only one is going to paradise and it is the one who believes in his word and his commands and obeys and follows the teachings of his Beloved Prophet(pbuh). Again I apologize for any mistakes I may have made and belief that they are from myself of the accursed one Shaiton and not from Allah. May Allah give you the zeal to seek knowledge in all these things.
     
  16. Malus 12:9

    Malus 12:9 Temporarily Deactive.

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    But Mohammed dude, do you think it is not the Islamic people that are making the Islam vs Chritianity debates?
     
  17. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    I believe that it is both parties due mostly to a lack of understanding about each other. It is an abligation on both faiths to convey the message. Christians as well as both Muslims are both told by their respected Messengers (pbut) to convey the message. Let us not try and generalize and say Islamic people start the debates because if that were true and muslims other than the brothers who are were giving out the message more people in this country and elsewhere would be better informed about Islam. The problem I see is that most people when they feel their faith is being questioned they automaically go on the defense and I mean on both sides it may not be always the case in these forums but in everyday life I am always having to explain and sometimes defend to non-muslims what the true belief system fo Islam is about based on the Qur'an and the authenic sunnah of our prophet. People often base their opinions on what we see people do today and not on what was given to us by our Messenger. We judge each other based on the actions of a few fanatics who really are not good representations of what the true Message of each religion. I do not believe people should debate I believe people should discuss these differences and try to get to the truth of the matter. As Allah says in the Qur'an come invite your bretheren so that we may come together and discover the truth together. Christians and Muslims both should not be afraid to discuss these differences no one is humble enough to say I am wrong or what I have been taught is wrong. It is the same problem displayed throughout history when God, Almighty sent the prophets to the people most people will reject the message. But whenever something is discussed their should be a different goal in the discussion. It should not be who is right because truly no one's opinion really matters, the facts should be based on the books, scriptural and historically proven documents to see which religion is correct and not which person is correct. And I also think some people are scared to question what they always thought was the truth. I myself question everything and am not afraid to admit I am wrong but I am also a student of religion and it is amazing how very little the Christians and Muslims I meet know very little about their own religions but they will be the first to defend it even with a limited understanding. I always try to surround myself with people of knowledge and try to see what the experts who have dedicated their lives to scrutinizing whichever religions they follows text. These are the people we should be listening to discuss religion the one's with the most knowledge. But everyone feels they are a scholar and it is really sad on both parties because not everyone can be right someone has to be wrong and if matters such as these are discussed with no arogance and a sincere desire to discover what the truth is then and only then can all the different religious groups to an agreement on which is telling the truth and which is being decieved. Because I believe that is the devils greatest tool. Mixing 99% truth with 1% lie because on any scale once you mix truth with and degree of falsehood it becomes as such.

    P.S. Both groups believe in Hell and no one from either group wants thier brother or sister to have to sustain that so that I believe is what it is all about. If I saw some impending doom my brother could not see I would definitely try to save him wouldn't you.

    Salam
     
  18. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    So what do we base the criterion of truth on. How do we tell if a scripture is true or decieving because I really believe no text is an outright falsehood I could never get a man to take poison if I just put the bottle in front of him. So is the criterion of truth. Should there be contradicitions changes made over time. Statements made be people appointed by God going against God's word. How Dear Brother know that someone has the truth. I am curious because everyone always says this one is wrong ie. religion and that one is wrong but what are the examples as to why a religion is untrue.

    Example someone lies, contradicitons in events, historical record of corruption etc. I am curious as to what your critierion is.
     
  19. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    Reality. But that's not the question you really want to ask. The question you are really asking is...
    You want to know what the criteria for evaluating claims is. I'm gonna go with "evidence". In particular, I'm looking at support relative to extraordinaryness of claim, external corroboration, and (hopefully) falsifiable predictions.

    Sounds like you are asking for disproofs.. which is rather backwars. The real question is "how do we know a claim to be true". The simple fact with regards to the religions at hand is "there's no support that they are".

    If you want internal inconsistancy, I'd siggest googling the very subject "condradictions in the quran / bible". If you want inconsistancy between the two, they should be obvious. Do you get to heaven by following the laws of God as laid down by Muhammed, or do you get to heaven by simple belief in Jesus? Or do you assert "either would work", in which case you've contradicted at least teh Bible (which says "only though belief in Jesus").
     
  20. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    Now everyone's reality is usually based on ones perception but true reality needs noone to believe in it inorder to exist. And I agree evidence is usually the best thing but is it not true we should examine ALL the evidence and all possibilities and examine the concrete facts not someones opinion.

    No I am not looking for disproofs. I am just wanting to know the basis on which we define reality or truth. In science when a theory is presented it is scrutinized and tested to check validity within the natural world which is full of constants. If your thesis remains true and it has a constant physical representation of itself dealing with certain physical applications then it is accepted as fact or law then. but if under many circumstances your initial thoughts do not agree with what is known to be true then it is often rejected and is not considered a truth.

    That also can be difficult in just Googling it because you never know if the source is credibal or the individual has a real grasp on the subject because many people just look at one verse without taking in the entire context of what is being said. I always try to get my information from the scholars of that particular field who have dedicated their lives to the scrutiny of the text. They have taken all the different applications into effect from the sources that are original what is actually being said.
    The Question again is how do we know which one is not telling the whole truth. And I never contradict the bible I let each book speak for itself. If it is what it says it is then let it prove itself and likewise for any other religion. I am a seeker of truth it is not about me being right or wrong. is the text correct and true in all instances of what is stated and their should always a criterion on how we decide what is truth
     
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