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Why I Cannot Abide Organized Religion

Yerda

Veteran Member
My main objection to religion is in the fact that it keeps trying to become "organized" into a one-size-fits-all, top-down, authoritarian, semi-cultist subculture intent on controlling people's thoughts and behaviors...
This is a problem with how humans interact, our relationship to power and how we can use social norms to pressure others to get our way. As soon as a thing is useful someone has worked out how to use it to gain leverage over others.

Organised religion has benefits. We are story-tellers. We "read" the world and tell stories about it (to ourselves) in order to make sense of it. Organised religions create a story (and history) out of the world's "symbols" that we can use to give ourselves shared identity, purpose and meaning. When we share identity, purpose and meaning we are kin and we can cooperate without suspicion and violence. We can achieve all of the incredible things people do only if we can cooperate.

We can also only do all the truly horrible things through cooperation. Double-edged swords, and all that.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
If by resolved you only mean cease wondering, yes, faith is very good for that. If you mean correctly evaluated, then no, faith can contribute nothing.
This is what I am constantly referring to: "correctly evaluated" according to what? You seem to always be assuming that there is a discernible 'right' answer and any other answer must them be wrong, or irrelevant. But in this instance there is no discernible right answer. All the possible answers are equally likely to be right as they are to be wrong. There are only the answers that work within the context to which we apply them. Until they don't. And we cannot determine that until we apply them to our experience of existence.
Yes, if all you are looking for is a comforting placebo effect with your belief, you can get that, and it can be repeatable.
In this instance, there are no other options, as we are not going to know 'the truth of it all'. Why do you keep ignoring this? Do you think you're going to get the 'big answer'? Do you think evidence and reason are going to give it to you? Based on what? On the fact that you're a 'true believer' in evidence and reason? Then why hasn't it? Why isn't it? Why don't you have the big answer?
People can become dependent on it, and reproducibly suffer discomfort by its withdrawal as well as relief by its restoration. That is observable and repeatable. But what is that evidence of?
It's evidence of the positive effect that faith has on those who engage in it.
It's evidence of a personal need, not evidence for a deity, ...
Actually, it's a pretty universal human need. Like love, and justice, and individual autonomy, we need to feel a sense of meaning, and value, and purpose to our lives, and the lives of those we exist with. I'm both puzzled and a little frightened that you seem to think these human needs are weaknesses, and warrant your derision.
... nor of the efficacy of faith at any other purpose than reassurance.
How is being reassured in one's own value, meaning, and purpose in life a bad thing, exactly? Because I'm failing to see why you're so dismissive of it.
If you're feeling vulnerable, it can make one feel safer that he is watched over by a deity. If you fear the possibility of the extinction of your consciousness after death, faith can be comforting.
But none of us knows that any of this is so. So we're either going to have to lie to ourselves and pretend that we do know it to be so (belief), or we're going to have to hope that it's so, and trust in that hope by living accordingly, even though we can't know it to be so.

The latter requires no dishonesty. No blind presumptions. No "guesses". No denial of our skepticism. And yet it gives us a logical positive course of action: to 'act as if' our hopes will be realized, to see if they will be. A way to move forward in spite of our ignorance and vulnerability. This is the gift of faith that you so desperately want to slander and dismiss as silly and somehow false. Even as your own beloved 'evidence and reason' sits moot. Because there is no evidence available to you, nor any way for you to reason out the mystery of being without it. All you can do is sit on your hands and take potshots at those who are still looking for the answers.
I've successfully resolved with those issues without faith, and by resolved, I mean that I have no fears and insecurities that can be benefited by faith.
You aren't really foolish enough to think that those are the only two issues that faith can be applied to, are you? And anyway, it's not all about you, is it. There are 7 billion humans on this planet and most of them are facing a lot more pain and suffering and difficulty than you are. And they are doing it with a lot less help, and education, and access to effective power than you have. So I really don't see you as being any sort of yardstick for how or why mankind needs faith in God.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"correctly evaluated" according to what?

The principles of reason in the evaluation of evidence. This is the only method for determining what is true about the world.

You seem to always be assuming that there is a discernible 'right' answer and any other answer must them be wrong, or irrelevant.

You seem to never understand what you read. Why do you keep making this error after being corrected a dozen times? What should I think of the conclusions of somebody correcting me that cannot master what I tell him? I have never assumed or stated that there is always a right answer. I'm an agnostic atheist, remember? There is no answer to the question of the existence of gods.

Of course, you never respond to these comments. You never try to rebut them. You don't acknowledge that you read them. There is no evidence you have. You just ignore it and come back repeating the error. It's a staple in the apologists' toolkit: Point refuted a thousand times - RationalWiki

All the possible answers are equally likely to be right as they are to be wrong.

Nope. Guesses are much more likely to be wrong than right when there are many more ways to be wrong than right, as with picking lottery numbers.

we are not going to know 'the truth of it all'. Why do you keep ignoring this?

Why do you keep ignoring that I have never ignored that, and stated the opposite explicitly many times as I have again in this reply, undoubtedly to be missed again, ignored again, not answered again, and the mistake it intended to correct repeated again.

Do you wish to be taken seriously? Would you like to change the minds of even critical thinkers Acknowledge that you can understand what you read by paraphrasing properly. Rebut that which you disagree with with a specific rebuttal that, if correct, invalidates what you disagree rather than simply disagree or ignore. Make arguments instead of bare claims. Provide supporting evidence for you claims if you want them to be considered.

This is never going to happen between us, is it? You refuse to do your part. And all that's left for me in such a discussion is to critique your debating etiquette and habits. Your unsupported opinions are of no value to me. The empiricist doesn't care what you believe, but what you know and can demonstrate to be correct. None of your opinions to me have a shred of support, and none of my arguments in rebuttal of those claims have been rebutted by you. You don't do that. You just disagree without argument and repeat yourself.

Do you think you're going to get the 'big answer'? Do you think evidence and reason are going to give it to you?

Still?

What I've said is that reason applied to evidence is how questions that can be answered are correctly answered, that many questions are unanswered and likely unanswerable, and that as a secular humanist, I have accepted that and am not troubled or distracted by them at all. Read that about fourteen times and try to understand what it says so that you can one day not make this same mistake regarding what I have told you repeatedly.

It's evidence of the positive effect that faith has on those who engage in it.

You ignore the evidence of the detriment of faith.

Actually, it's a pretty universal human need. Like love, and justice, and individual autonomy, we need to feel a sense of meaning, and value, and purpose to our lives, and the lives of those we exist with. I'm both puzzled and a little frightened that you seem to think these human needs are weaknesses, and warrant your derision.

What I consider undesirable is meeting those needs with comforting fictions. I understand that many cannot do better. What you don't understand is that many can. You see that approach as deficient, too small a vision, what you disparagingly call scientism and a materialist paradigm.

Look, I don't diminish you for needing a god belief. I never have. In fact, I've said several times that I wouldn't deprive you of that if I could unless I could also replace it with something better, which would require your understanding and cooperation to do, something that just never happens.

Yet you and many like you are continually implying that your predicament is actually superior, and that those who have avoided it are too small in their thinking. I've given you the apt metaphor (which you also and predictably have failed to comment on every time) of the person with poor vision who one day gets glasses, can see, and excitedly tells everybody they need a pair. Then someone like me says that his vision is find without correction, and in fact, glasses actually degrade his vision. Then the guy with glasses start demeaning the guy with good vison for his disinterest in glasses, who responds, "Isn't it better to not need glasses to see than to need them to read? I'm happy for you, but I don't have that need." And this is followed by more objections worded as being too limited in vision. Then I ask, "Tell me what you see that I don't" and guess what? Bupkis. Diddly squat. He sees less than I do.

So who's the one with limited vision after all? Can you see the arguments in front of you? Do you know what a rebuttal is? Is there any of it you can refute, or will it all me either no comment or a wave of the hand followed by either nothing or words that don't make your case or weaken mine? Can you do better than that? If not, why not? If so, same question: why not?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
The principles of reason in the evaluation of evidence. This is the only method for determining what is true about the world.
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE! And we are not trying to determine what is "true about the world" (regarding value, meaning, and purpose), because WE CAN'T KNOW THAT! Are you beginning to see why this conversation keeps going in circles? (I suspect not.)
 

lukethethird

unknown member
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE! And we are not trying to determine what is "true about the world" (regarding value, meaning, and purpose), because WE CAN'T KNOW THAT! Are you beginning to see why this conversation keeps going in circles? (I suspect not.)
Value, meaning, purpose? Those are human constructs that people apply individually as they see fit. However, facts matter when applying these constructs, that's where evidence comes in handy.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE! And we are not trying to determine what is "true about the world" (regarding value, meaning, and purpose), because WE CAN'T KNOW THAT! Are you beginning to see why this conversation keeps going in circles? (I suspect not.)

I've told you why no progress is being made. You steadfastly refuse to respond to most of what is written to you, and you misunderstand what is written to you. There is never any back-and-forth beyond me rebutting you and you repeating yourself without addressing the rebuttal. How could any progress be made like that? Dialectic is a cooperative effort between two or more critical thinkers. This is not that. Look at how little of the post you responded t appears in your response. That's why no progress is made.

And once again, since you've never bothered to rebut it - just dismiss it and repeat your rebutted definition that you never respond to - faith tells you nothing about value, meaning, or purpose. Faith is guessing. You have never rebutted that because you cannot. You cannot demonstrate a single thing believed by faith that isn't merely a guess. You just continue to glorify the decision to believe what you would like to be true with lofty Hallmark card kinds of praise, just like the religions that depend on people guessing that their god among all actually exists, and that their religion among all is correct, because they cannot offer a scintilla of evidence in support of that. That's a guess. That's guessing. And very low probability guesses at that, extremely likely to be wrong.

Your method of deciding what is true about the world has given the world thousands of mutually exclusive religions all claiming by faith that they have the truth. The empiricist's method has given the world one periodic table of the elements. The religions, all being wrong guesses, are all useless. They give no supportable answers, just guesses. The science is correct and very useful.

That's the pattern with faith versus empiricism over and over and over. Faith gave us astrology, sterile. Empiricism made it into astronomy. Very useful.

Faith gave us alchemy, another useless wrong guess believed because people wanted it to be true, not because there was any reason think it was. Empiricism converted it to chemistry.

Faith gave us creationism, including the Genesis creation myth, also a guess, also wrong, also useless. Empiricism gave us evolutionary theory.

Faith tells one that all opinions are equal, a wrong and bad guess, and that if you want to believe that the vaccine is more dangerous that the virus, it's true, because of the belief that guesses can yield truth as well as empiricism, which they really don't understand anyway.

Faith says that the US presidential election was rigged and Trump won, a horribly wrong guess that has cost lives and is threatening to undo American democracy.

Faith includes guessing that global climate change is a hoax, and choosing to ignore it, yet another error, yet another bad guess.

You, like the clergy, want to glorify this horrible error of thought by using words like hope and trust. How about a guess? That's all it is, guess believed to be true. None of the people listed above - the creationist, the antivaxxer, the climate denier - think in terms of any possibility that they are incorrect. That's what faith is - guessing, but treating the guess like an established fact.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Value, meaning, purpose? Those are human constructs that people apply individually as they see fit. However, facts matter when applying these constructs, that's where evidence comes in handy.
The point is that the evidence is not available to us in advance. At least not the kind of evidence that you're looking for. So basing these very important constructs on evidence and reason is not possible by the method you and others here seem to think is the only effective method of establishing the truth of anything. Yet this is when faith becomes very useful to us. Because faith provides a way forward when "evidence and reason" cannot. Faith allows us to determine a course of action based on what we hope to be true, not on what we can presume to be true based on evidence. And then when we act on that hope, we will gain some sort of result that we can then use to help us determine the viability of, if not the 'truth of' what we had hoped to be the meaning ans purpose of our reality.

But you all continue to mislabel faith as an irrational, unfounded belief so you can disparage and dismiss it. Why? Because real faith transcends the limitations of your beloved "evidence and reason" paradigm? That's not a very reasonable response. Is it because you are so resentful of religion and of religion's stupid insistence that faith is believing in whatever they say regardless of how silly it sounds? I can understand the resentment, but at some point one has to get past that, don't you think? Otherwise you just keep playing into it, like feeding a troll. Or is the problem that you have become 'blind believers', yourselves. Only instead of religion, you blindly believe in "scientism", and so just can't allow any other method of seeking truth, or of finding it, stand?
 

lukethethird

unknown member
The point is that the evidence is not available to us in advance. At least not the kind of evidence that you're looking for. So basing these very important constructs on evidence and reason is not possible by the method you and others here seem to think is the only effective method of establishing the truth of anything. Yet this is when faith becomes very useful to us. Because faith provides a way forward when "evidence and reason" cannot. Faith allows us to determine a course of action based on what we hope to be true, not on what we can presume to be true based on evidence. And then when we act on that hope, we will gain some sort of result that we can then use to help us determine the viability of, if not the 'truth of' what we had hoped to be the meaning ans purpose of our reality.

But you all continue to mislabel faith as an irrational, unfounded belief so you can disparage and dismiss it. Why? Because real faith transcends the limitations of your beloved "evidence and reason" paradigm? That's not a very reasonable response. Is it because you are so resentful of religion and of religion's stupid insistence that faith is believing in whatever they say regardless of how silly it sounds? I can understand the resentment, but at some point one has to get past that, don't you think? Otherwise you just keep playing into it, like feeding a troll. Or is the problem that you have become 'blind believers', yourselves. Only instead of religion, you blindly believe in "scientism", and so just can't allow any other method of seeking truth, or of finding it, stand?
I don't have a problem assigning value, meaning, and purpose the way I see fit, religious faith plays no part in it. Reason and sound logic works fine for me. BTW, I am not seeking truth, that's a religious thing.
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
I don't have a problem assigning value, meaning, and purpose the way I see fit, religious faith plays no part in it.
What you are calling "religious faith" is not not really faith, it's blind presumption pretending to be faith. Faith is not blind presumption. Religions are misrepresenting it when they claim that faith is blindly presuming that the religion's dictum is truth. I understand your indignation in this regard, but don't let religion mislead you just so you can maintain your resentment. And don't assume that everyone associated with religion is so misled about the reality of faith vs. the delusion of blind belief. Because they are not all so confused.
Reason and sound logic works fine for me. BTW, I am not seeking truth, that's a religious thing.
I think the problem is that you ARE seeking truth but you can't have it in regard to the question of existential meaning and purpose by the method your bias has you locked into.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
What you are calling "religious faith" is not not really faith, it's blind presumption pretending to be faith. Faith is not blind presumption. Religions are misrepresenting it when they claim that faith is blindly presuming that the religion's dictum is truth. I understand your indignation in this regard, but don't let religion mislead you just so you can maintain your resentment. And don't assume that everyone associated with religion is so misled about the reality of faith vs. the delusion of blind belief. Because they are not all so confused.
I think the problem is that you ARE seeking truth but you can't have it in regard to the question of existential meaning and purpose by the method your bias has you locked into.

I have no resentment towards religion, I only ridicule religion because it's there and someone has to.
I have no idea what you mean by seeking truth anyways, sounds like a deepity kind of thing new agers are hung up on.
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Do we need spiritual unity?
In my view spiritual “unity” isn’t a choice or a perceived need; it simply *is*. We are one — with ourselves, with each other, with the world. It’s when we insist on our perspective being the only perspective that we turn from reality. The distinctions we make are rather arbitrary and don’t serve much good, other than to point out differences.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Use only reason, and the external senses, as the pillars of your philosophy and, like a two legged stool, you will remain unbalanced.

:D:D:D:D

230px-David_Carradine_as_Caine_in_Kung_Fu.jpg


It's like I'm back in the 70's, when people thought the vapid platitudes were cool. If you use unevidenced emotional superstition, then you have to demonstrate your conclusions are valid. Logic has already demonstrated its efficacy.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Read It Ain’t Necessarily So’s posts; it’s his term, not mine.

Critical thinking has given us vaccines, for which I’m grateful. And nuclear weapons, for which I’m somewhat less grateful. What has been called magical, or soft, thinking has given us John Milton and William Blake, Emily Dickinson and Lev Tolstoy, for each of whom I thank God every day. Michaelangelo was clearly well versed in both critical and magical thinking.
Literature art music, and creative imagination, are not soft thinking. Soft thinking is assigning some supernatural agency to them. Humans like many many other species are awesome. We don't need any deity for that.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
You, like most atheists, seem to be obsessed with the concept of "belief".
Ah, another of your sweeping psychic notions on what "most atheists" think or believe. Tell us how we are all biased again, that was pretty funny. :rolleyes: :D
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I am not interested in anyone's "irrational bias".

Only your own, judging from your posts.

your criteria for viable evidence seems to only be evidence that manages to convinced you, personally,

I couldn't care less what an atheist believes. Many of them don't even know, themselves.

YOU are not the definer of what "evidence" is. You just think you are because you are ruled by your own biased ego rather than by logic.

Isn't ad hominem considered irrational anymore? Maybe I've simply lived too long...
 
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