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Why I Cannot Abide Organized Religion

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
What i s "it" that is so important?

Because it is in fact subjectively important to some people. You can find the same problem in effect in atheistic existential philosophy. There is no meaning in science, the objective and the observable universe.
So unless you have a scientific method for importance, then we are all doing it subjectively, yet sometimes differently.

Now even as an atheist, I recognize the existentialism in what @PureX is saying. And I agree more with him, than some of my fellow atheists.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
No, that is not my position. What I have said is that empiricism is the only method of discovering what is true about the world. Of course the mind has other uses and modes of thinking, such as enjoying a massage or a sunset.



Now you're moving the goalpost. I've been discussing the claim that soft thinking brings enlightenment not available to the strict empiricist, and that there is no such knowledge available about reality using soft thinking. Now you're talking about the fine and liberal arts, and implying that empiricism excludes these pursuits. It does not. I am a secular humanist. We are engaged in the arts and sciences, just not the fanciful mythologies of those who don't require evidence to believe.

Soft thinking is great for enjoying a concert or skiing. It's great for enjoying a meal or a sunset. It is useless for any understanding of any of these that one may wish to accumulate. It cannot tell us if there are gods or afterlives.



I wasn't aware that you you were unaware of the benefits of critical thinking. It may be why I'm alive. I can understand what it means to say that 90+% of people dying of COVID today in a country like the US where vaccines are available to all who are eligible. Critical thinking says take the vaccine. Soft thinking allows one to come to other conclusions because he really doesn't know what is true about the world. In fact, there's a website called sorryantivaxxer.com that features the biographies of these people that refuse vaccines and are dead or dying of COVID. They are generally people who believed various charlatans by faith (soft thinking), now pleading for prayers, telling others how they are relying on God to see them or the loved one they're writing about through (soft thinking), then they die. They weren't enjoying music or a fine wine, where soft thinking belong. They were making life and death decisions, and badly because they used soft thinking.

There's a benefit to critical thinking. I doubt you need more examples.

But you still haven't provided the counterpart because you can't as I've already declared - how soft thinking about gods, for example, has ever yielded any useful idea about reality. I just gave you an example where it generated a lethal one. You have not provided any example where this other mode of thought about things unseen has generated anything but mythology and bad judgment based in believing it. That's the line I've drawn in the ground for all those who claim to have a better way of knowing - you know, the one you and so many others keep implying limits the vision of those who reject it, but never describe the vistas you are seeing or how they would be of benefit to anybody not needing the comfort of a false belief. Why? Because there are none - just the claims.

It's the same with the "spiritual but not religious" people. They tell us they're on a spiritual journey acquiring spiritual truths in their studies and meditations. Ask them what they've learned, and you'll understand that what they are doing is role-playing. It pleases them to believe that they see further as they progress on this spiritual path. Ten years later, everything is the same for them.

I wouldn't be harping on this point so much if these people weren't also trying to vaunt themselves at the expense of those who reject their methods. If you want to call them inferior, you ought to be able to show why these other ways are superior. But none do.


So the ability to appreciate beauty, to wonder, and to love are examples of soft thinking? Then I’d say we could all do with more of that.

Incidentally, at no time have I said that the use of reason, logic etc, constitutes inferior thinking; merely that they are not the only tools at man’s disposal when it comes to exploring the mysteries of existence. Use only reason, and the external senses, as the pillars of your philosophy and, like a two legged stool, you will remain unbalanced.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
So the ability to appreciate beauty, to wonder, and to love are examples of soft thinking? Then I’d say we could all do with more of that.

Incidentally, at no time have I said that the use of reason, logic etc, constitutes inferior thinking; merely that they are not the only tools at man’s disposal when it comes to exploring the mysteries of existence. Use only reason, and the external senses, as the pillars of your philosophy and, like a two legged stool, you will remain unbalanced.

What does soft thinking explain
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
So the ability to appreciate beauty, to wonder, and to love are examples of soft thinking? Then I’d say we could all do with more of that.

Incidentally, at no time have I said that the use of reason, logic etc, constitutes inferior thinking; merely that they are not the only tools at man’s disposal when it comes to exploring the mysteries of existence. Use only reason, and the external senses, as the pillars of your philosophy and, like a two legged stool, you will remain unbalanced.

Here is the problem. Imagine standing up and trying to figure out where to go. Reason can tell you something about that and external sensory experience can also do that. But they can't tell you how it is, you should move at all. And any reason to move can't be done with logic and/or external sensory experience alone. Any reason you give is not a reason in the abstract formal rational sense. It is a first person subjective evolution for which I could give another.
It is the same with reason as measure:
-a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event.
-the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgements logically.

The justification can be non-logical as what makes sense as a personal value.
In the end we are playing a variation of these problem:
What is a naturalistic fallacy? The Ethics Centre Article
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The problem is that your standard for rational desire is subjective.

There is no problem.

you confuse what makes sense objectively with what makes sense subjectively.

No, you do. I've described my epistemology to you in detail in the past.

You on the other hand are locked in some kind of epistemological tornado that has left you without any foundation for belief or knowledge. Nothing is knowable to you. Nothing is correct or incorrect. All ideas are equally valid and invalid.

I've mentioned to you that I really don't know why you say the things you do to me and others. I don't know what your point is. Are you recommending that people change the way they see it and which you disagree with to your way? I don't know, but that's certainly implied by your posting. Yet you never explain how the thinking you criticize doesn't generate valid results, or hw you recommend they process information instead and why that is to their advantage. It's the same thing I keep getting from the theists and spiritual but not religious people, who also condemn thinking like mine, but can never demonstrate how it fails or how their way of knowing is better or what its fruits are, which tells me there are none.

So the actually falsification of your theory, is that I can make subjectively different sense of being a human, yet still do the same for the objective parts of the everyday world.

My theory?

Once again, I don't know what you're telling me or why. Yes, you can process information differently. It doesn't make it as effective. As I've told you before, I see that the way you think is suboptimal. It's like you're trying to walk with one foot nailed to the floor and going in circles rather than making forward progress. You seem content with it, and therefore it is just as valid a way of thinking to you. After all, it hasn't killed you yet.

And all you do is this: Based on my subjective desire yours is irrational because it is not mine.

I haven't been discussing my desires. Nor have I said anything like that. Ideas are irrational when they are not derived from reasoning. Nonverbal ideas such as urges and apprehensions are always irrational, since they are not derived, but received from unseen neural networks.

However, thought, or the use of abstract symbols to process information to decide what is true, should always be rational.

Thus, we experience thirst not through reason, but the bare apprehension of the idea that one wants a drink. To this we apply reason and our understanding of what is true about the world to make rational decisions about how to proceed to satisfy that urge. Are we fasting for bloodwork? Then it should be water and not juice. Is the tap water safe to drink or should we get bottled water? This is the place where we want to avoid irrationality - in symbolic thought intended to maximize outcomes, in this case, satisfying thirst safely without messing up the blood test.

So, we have all kinds of appropriate irrational phenomena going through the theater of our consciousness, and they are often good and desirable. We use reason to cultivate them, to facilitate them, and to successfully anticipate and avoid the undesirable irrational experiences such as a hangover or shame.

That is where life has meaning - in the irrational experiences such as the various pains and pleasures we experience. I do not diminish the importance of irrational thought. I just exclude it from my processing those impulses such as noticing which behaviors effect which outcomes. One can think of these two as the paint and the brush, where the pigments and the portrait are experienced irrationally as something beautiful or off putting or whatever, and the brush represents the thinking faculty, which manages the pigments in an effort to paint a beautiful panorama for the consciousness, one dominated by the desirable irrational ideas such as contentment. So important are these experiences that when the anhedonia of depression is severe and prolonged enough, and the pigments from our palette have all disappeared, life loses meaning, and suicide may follow. That's how important the irrational is. Just keep it out of thought, where it does damage.

That's my "theory," by the way, and it manifested in this thread as me telling another poster that bias is only undesirable when it's irrational. When you're biased against pedophiles or bullies, your bias is rational and constructive, and if and when it informs your actions, they will be salutary. Those rational biases will make the world a better pace if you can effectively reduce pedophilia or bullying. They are rational because they were derived from considering evidence and coming to useful conclusions.

On the other hand, if your bias is irrational, such as antisemitism or atheophobia, meaning not based in evidence, your ideas will likely be wrong and often destructive. Avoiding black cats, which is irrational, probably won't harm you, but it also does nothing for you. Avoiding a vaccine if you're eligible is irrational if the virus is more dangerous than the vaccine, but rational if it were the other way around. That's my point. Bias can be good if it's derived rationally, by the successful interpretation of evidence. It's what we call learning - set of ideas about what is true about the world (hopefully; when done improperly, we add wrong ideas and mistake them for learning). Rational bias is not something to be avoided, but a desirable result of rational thought.

Now look at your words again. What? Does what you wrote represent me or what I am saying to you and others at all? Does it contain any useful ideas? It doesn't appear to. And that is what I mean by this epistemological nihilism of yours impeding your intellectual progress, and I would also dare say your happiness, since as I discussed, learning is acquiring new ways to successfully manage experience and facilitate desirable (irrational) experiences, to avoid avoidable dysphoric states such as shame and regret.

Not all ways of thinking are equally productive. Yes, you can process your world differently, and live according to whatever mental map you wind up with. And you can say that it is just as valid, using the word subjectivity a lot, but does it serve you optimally? Can you critically evaluate what you have read here, understand what is being told to you, benefit from whatever parts you agree with but hadn't considered, and specifically identify and rebut (not merely disagree or dismiss, but give a sound argument for why you believe the idea is flawed, what you would replace it with, and why) that which with you disagree. If you can, we can have a discussion with an exchange of information and ideas, one we'd both enjoy and benefit from.

This is my spiritual journey, one of learning. This is the wisdom one can acquire forsaking holy books, gurus, and navel contemplation in search of truth and meaning, and turning to one's own faculties. This is my way of seeing further, and it's based purely in the application of reason to evidence, that method decried by those choosing that other path that they claim gives them special and valuable insight, and having nothing useful to show for their efforts. I would have them consider the palette and brush metaphor in praise of reason as a tool to manage the palette of passions. That's an idea that one can actually use to facilitate reaching a higher understanding of one's self and how the mind can work to achieve the goals others seek with methods that generate nothing useful. Will you join me, or continue to give me warnings about my flawed thinking based in your epistemological nihilism that seems to do nothing for you?

I've long defined intelligence as knowing how to get what you want, and wisdom as knowing what will bring happiness, that is, knowing what to want, what will bring contentment, or the closest state to Buddhahood or nirvana possible. The answers come from careful contemplation of experience (evidence), and the proper understanding of what it tells us about the world and ourselves.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It's the same with the "spiritual but not religious" people. They tell us they're on a spiritual journey acquiring spiritual truths in their studies and meditations. Ask them what they've learned, and you'll understand that what they are doing is role-playing. It pleases them to believe that they see further as they progress on this spiritual path. Ten years later, everything is the same for them.

Could you enlarge on your comment about role playing?

Sure. They're playing a part.

I have local friends that play guru. They see themselves as spiritual. They like to say namaste a lot. They post deepities on Facebook. They like to refer to spirit guides. And like so many other, they assume an air of wisdom and a fey demeanor. It's part of the costume. It's how they represent themselves. It's a look they like.

I used to do something similar as a hospice medical director. Unlike with the treatment of the non-terminal, it really wasn't necessary for me to meet them to do my job. Medicine is pretty simple when you're not trying to diagnose what symptoms mean, but merely treating them. I would never treat pain in an otherwise viable patient with morphine, for example, without examining the patient. What if he were also in respiratory distress, and the morphine diminished his respiratory drive, or he had a ruptured appendix, and analgesia might mask the symptoms as they evolved and made it apparent that this was a surgical emergency. That's malpractice.

But in a terminally ill patient on hospice, the goal is comfort only, and it can be done over the phone. Pain? Morphine. Nausea? Compazine. Insomnia? Ambien. Anxiety? Ativan. This is the kind of prescribing that is terrible medicine anywhere but hospice, and which people point to "all they want to do is prescribe a pill for everything." Well, yeah. When you have three days to live and you're vomiting from your illness, that's what will bring you relief quickly.

It's not really medicine (if I use the stethoscope at all, it is also only for show, since there is nothing in the heart, abdomen, or lungs that I might hear that is going to change the comfort care I prescribe), but only a physician can prescribe these drugs (all of our nurses and even the nurses aids could do the same, but not legally).

But some patients needed to see a physician for peace of mind, and the nurses would request a wizard consult, meaning that they were asking me to make a visit to just stand there looking like a doctor in a tie, long white coat, and a stethoscope that I didn't need except as a prop. That was role-playing - the wizard. This somehow was reassuring, which made it palliative therapy in itself.

I also did a little role playing in the office with viable patients. Occasionally, it is possible to do a thorough job without touching a patient. Maybe all I need are the vital signs and to ask a few questions. But an experienced physician understands the psychological benefit of the laying on of hands, and never fails to touch the patient, generally with a stethoscope. The patient needs that to believe that you were thorough. Role playing.

This guy is role playing, also guru (Tor, who appears at about 0:44). He feigns a higher understanding of health care using various props and rituals, offering meaningless advice. Check out the outfit and the demeanor:

Seinfeld - George, Kramer, and Jerry meet Tor Eckman, the holistic healer
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
What does soft thinking explain


Read It Ain’t Necessarily So’s posts; it’s his term, not mine.

Critical thinking has given us vaccines, for which I’m grateful. And nuclear weapons, for which I’m somewhat less grateful. What has been called magical, or soft, thinking has given us John Milton and William Blake, Emily Dickinson and Lev Tolstoy, for each of whom I thank God every day. Michaelangelo was clearly well versed in both critical and magical thinking.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Sure. They're playing a part.

I have local friends that play guru. They see themselves as spiritual. They like to say namaste a lot. They post deepities on Facebook. They like to refer to spirit guides. And like so many other, they assume an air of wisdom and a fey demeanor. It's part of the costume. It's how they represent themselves. It's a look they like.

I used to do something similar as a hospice medical director. Unlike with the treatment of the non-terminal, it really wasn't necessary for me to meet them to do my job. Medicine is pretty simple when you're not trying to diagnose what symptoms mean, but merely treating them. I would never treat pain in an otherwise viable patient with morphine, for example, without examining the patient. What if he were also in respiratory distress, and the morphine diminished his respiratory drive, or he had a ruptured appendix, and analgesia might mask the symptoms as they evolved and made it apparent that this was a surgical emergency. That's malpractice.

But in a terminally ill patient on hospice, the goal is comfort only, and it can be done over the phone. Pain? Morphine. Nausea? Compazine. Insomnia? Ambien. Anxiety? Ativan. This is the kind of prescribing that is terrible medicine anywhere but hospice, and which people point to "all they want to do is prescribe a pill for everything." Well, yeah. When you have three days to live and you're vomiting from your illness, that's what will bring you relief quickly.

It's not really medicine (if I use the stethoscope at all, it is also only for show, since there is nothing in the heart, abdomen, or lungs that I might hear that is going to change the comfort care I prescribe), but only a physician can prescribe these drugs (all of our nurses and even the nurses aids could do the same, but not legally).

But some patients needed to see a physician for peace of mind, and the nurses would request a wizard consult, meaning that they were asking me to make a visit to just stand there looking like a doctor in a tie, long white coat, and a stethoscope that I didn't need except as a prop. That was role-playing - the wizard. This somehow was reassuring, which made it palliative therapy in itself.

I also did a little role playing in the office with viable patients. Occasionally, it is possible to do a thorough job without touching a patient. Maybe all I need are the vital signs and to ask a few questions. But an experienced physician understands the psychological benefit of the laying on of hands, and never fails to touch the patient, generally with a stethoscope. The patient needs that to believe that you were thorough. Role playing.

This guy is role playing, also guru (Tor, who appears at about 0:44). He feigns a higher understanding of health care using various props and rituals, offering meaningless advice. Check out the outfit and the demeanor:

Seinfeld - George, Kramer, and Jerry meet Tor Eckman, the holistic healer


All the world’s a stage, the men and women merely players. They have their exits and their entrances, and in his time a man plays many parts.

What part are you playing now, do you think?
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Here is the problem. Imagine standing up and trying to figure out where to go. Reason can tell you something about that and external sensory experience can also do that. But they can tell you how it is, you should move at all. And any reason to move can't be done with logic and/or external sensory experience alone. Any reason you give is not a reason in the abstract formal rational sense. It is a first person subjective evolution for which I could give another.
It is the same with reason as measure:
-a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event.
-the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgements logically.

The justification can be non-logical as what makes sense as a personal value.
In the end we are playing a variation of these problem:
What is a naturalistic fallacy? The Ethics Centre Article


And sometimes we just have to trust our instincts and our intuition. If we relied only on reason to inform our every step, we would suffer “analysis to paralysis”, and never move a yard in any direction.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So the ability to appreciate beauty, to wonder, and to love are examples of soft thinking?

No. I've been clear about what I mean by soft thinking, and it is not appreciating beauty. Did you read post 266? I explain there that what I mean by soft thinking is thinking using language, but not critical thinking - faith-based belief. Appreciating beauty is not thinking as I have defined it.

at no time have I said that the use of reason, logic etc, constitutes inferior thinking; merely that they are not the only tools at man’s disposal when it comes to exploring the mysteries of existence.

You have implied that not adding soft thinking to critical thinking constitutes inferior thinking, but I can't get you to give an example how. You imply that you see further and that this is beneficial, but you don't say how. You keep coming back to aesthetics and creativity, intuitions, which are different than thought. Thought can be applied to them, and should be, and it ought to be all rigorous, none of it soft, vague, or fuzzy.

Have I shared my music with you? This is where I get creative and passionate. This is not what I am referring to with the term soft thinking. That's not thinking at all. It's pure feeling and muscle memory (the chords and scales).

The guitar solo begins about 3:32. There is no thinking then, just nonverbal "singing" with my hands. You are incorrect to assume that this dimension is absent from my life because reject soft thinking as a means of determining what is true in the world. This is a song by the Grateful Dead that my wife (on bass) and I performed in a coffee house (drums are synthetic). The guitar solo is a purely creative act. It's improvised - never the same, not pre-planned. But it is not an example of soft thinking. Thanking God for it might be.


Use only reason, and the external senses, as the pillars of your philosophy and, like a two legged stool, you will remain unbalanced

So you keep saying. I'd say that I'm about as balanced as one can be. What can you add to my life with your special way of knowing that you think will make me more balanced? I keep making this comment because you and others keep reasserting the superiority of such thinking that you can't demonstrate, and it is my purpose to make this point by continually challenging others to explain what the value of what they are recommending is and having them not be able to offer any.

I offered the allegory of the people who could count but not add, who met a man who claimed to have a special way of knowing that allowed him to see more. He could add. If the others wanted to know how many sheep the merger of two flocks whose numbers had been counted, they had to count them altogether. They could only discover that merging a flock of 36 with one of 47 produces a flock of 83 by counting. The man says, I can see that the count will be (36+47=)83. The locals are stunned at this prophecy when it proves to be accurate. Truly, this man had a special way of knowing, and was able to demonstrate it. That never happens on these threads.

Critical thinking has given us vaccines, for which I’m grateful. And nuclear weapons, for which I’m somewhat less grateful. What has been called magical, or soft, thinking has given us John Milton and William Blake, Emily Dickinson and Lev Tolstoy, for each of whom I thank God every day. Michaelangelo was clearly well versed in both critical and magical thinking.

Nope. I wish you'd get that right. Creativity is not soft thinking. Soft thinking refers to one thing and one thing only - a faith-based approach to deciding what is true, which I consider guessing. That's it. Just that. If you want to critique me, understand me. Disagree with what I am saying, not what you mistake me for saying. That only leads to a straw man, where you equate me with Mr. Spock, an unfeeling, dimensionless reasoning machine. I'm Kirk - the synthesis of the Apollonian and Dionysian traditions: "In Greek mythology, Apollo and Dionysus are both sons of Zeus. Apollo is the god of the sun, of rational thinking and order, and appeals to logic, prudence and purity. Dionysus is the god of wine and dance, of irrationality and chaos, and appeals to emotions and instincts. The Ancient Greeks did not consider the two gods to be opposites or rivals, although they were often entwined by nature."

That's balance.

What part are you playing now, do you think?

Teacher.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Faith is the willingness to believe without sufficient evidence. Ideas believed by faith may inform actions, but those actions are not faith.
You, like most atheists, seem to be obsessed with the concept of "belief". But faith does not require belief. In fact, faith is how we move forward when we don't have any 'belief in' any probable outcome.
The strict empiricist also frequently has to make best guesses based on limited knowledge, but he doesn't use faith. He uses evidence.
You can't seem to grasp the idea that sometimes THERE IS NO EVIDENCE upon which to determine any sufficient degree of reasoned probability. And even when there is, the "strict empiricist" is still trusting in and acting on the unfounded hope that his reasoning will produce the correct assessment. (And that's called 'faith'.)
This is your counterexample to my rational bias that one should look both ways before crossing - that blind people can't do that?
Yes, because you don't seem to be able to grasp that at some point there isn't sufficient information for your rational bias to operate. An then you have to operate on faith.
Of course you failed to comment on the distinction between rational and irrational bias, the central point of my post. This is why we never make progress in discussions. It's just you making claims, me rebutting them, and you ignoring that and moving on to things like the above. No problem. It just means that rather than having a discussion with you, I can only comment on how you respond and how it ignores what what written to you.
I am not interested in anyone's "irrational bias". I am not interested in arguing with or about anyone's interpretations of religious mythology, or dogma. We humans have very different life experiences, needs, and intellectual capacities from and with which we 'reason' all kinds of amazing and sometimes 'crazy' things. And none of us have the capacity to validate or invalidate much of it. It makes us who we are. And you and I are no exceptions in this regard.

So when I see the conversation going in that direction, I ignore it. As far as I am concerned, we're all deaf, numb, and blind men trying to cross a busy highway.
And you will ignore that comment as well. You will not address the validity of lack thereof (if that's how you feel) of my thesis. You will still ignore the claim that not all bias is undesirable, only irrational bias. You will not discuss why you do that. You will not discuss the claim that you fail to answer responsively, You'll just move on and post something irrelevant such as that blind people can't see both ways, or not respond at all.
Your thesis always seem to be that you will always have sufficient information to make a reasonable (and correct) determination because even insufficient information is considered sufficient information, somehow.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
faith does not require belief. In fact, faith is how we move forward when we don't have any 'belief in' any probable outcome.

You use the words differently than I do. A belief is anything one considers to be true to some degree (one may consider a belief certain, very probable, probable, etc..). If it is arrived at empirically and confirmed empirically, it is a fact. If it is arrived at any other way, it is believed by faith. By this reckoning, faith is a category of belief. I understand that this is nothow you use these words, but if you intend to address my use of them, you should understand what I mean when I use them.

You can't seem to grasp the idea that sometimes THERE IS NO EVIDENCE upon which to determine any sufficient degree of reasoned probability.

And why would you say that after I've posted the opposite many times. Many questions cannot be answered for lack of evidence. It's why I call myself an agnostic. I have posted that there is no way to assign a probability for the existence of a noninterventionalist god like the deist deity. There is absolutely no way to say what the likelihood of that is.

Where do you get these ideas about me? Not from my writing.

And even when there is, the "strict empiricist" is still trusting in and acting on the unfounded hope that his reasoning will produce the correct assessment.

Reason always provides the best assessment, even when that assessment is that there isn't enough evidence to know as with the deist god. What's the alternative? Faith - guessing what is true or what will happen.

because you don't seem to be able to grasp that at some point there isn't sufficient information for your rational bias to operate. An then you have to operate on faith.

Nope. I never have to act on faith, because I don't have to have any beliefs believed by faith. You seem to be confusing making probabilistic choices with faith, or unjustified belief. I'm a bridge player, and we frequently are making probabilistic guesses based on no or incomplete information. Making such choices is not faith. It is not unjustified belief. Which opponent holds the queen of diamonds. I'm declaring and holding AJ7 of diamonds with KT4 - I can win all three tricks if I can place the queen properly and finesse in the right direction in this 2-way finesse situation. We have 22 of the combined 40 high card points (points for aces, kings, queens, and jacks) leaving 18 for the opponents.

Right-hand opponent (RHO) opened, indicating 12+ points, and left-hand opponent has been discarding diamonds (if you hold the queen, you want to hold two more diamonds so that it doesn't drop under the A and K). Who's likeliest to hold the queen? The first fact makes it twice as likely that RHO holds the queen, and the second reduces the chance that LHO has the queen from 1 in 3 to more like 1 in 5 (LHO could have started with the queen and four other diamonds, and is safely discarding diamonds even when holding the queen). So how do we pay? We finesse RHO for the queen based pure reason applied to incomplete information, and make a probabilistic choice that will correct more often than wrong. There is zero faith in any of that. Hope yes, but not faith.

I don't know if a non-player can follow that or not. Apologies if it was inscrutable. Even so, perhaps it illustrated my point anyway. If this is what you are calling faith, then it is what I call reason. Faith is just guessing that RHO hold the queen because your horoscope said so, you believe it for no reason, and are surprised to be wrong.

We humans have very different life experiences, needs, and intellectual capacities from and with which we 'reason' all kinds of amazing and sometimes 'crazy' things. And none of us have the capacity to validate or invalidate much of it.

Um, disagree. We can validate some ideas - correct ones - empirically and allow them to become beliefs (facts). Others we cannot, and they should not become beliefs (guesses). You're projecting your own experience onto me. You're a faith-based thinker, willing to believe by faith. Every time you do that you have probably made a mistake, and will come to a wrong conclusion, conclusions that cannot validate if they are wrong, as most unevidenced guesses are.

Why do you think you know the limits of empiricism and reason when you contaminate your thinking with faith-based thinking?

Your thesis always seem to be that you will always have sufficient information to make a reasonable (and correct) determination because even insufficient information is considered sufficient information, somehow.

Am I really that hard to understand? You get it wrong every time. Is there any point in my correcting you again?
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
No. I've been clear about what I mean by soft thinking, and it is not appreciating beauty. Did you read post 266? I explain there that what I mean by soft thinking is thinking using language, but not critical thinking - faith-based belief. Appreciating beauty is not thinking as I have defined it.



You have implied that not adding soft thinking to critical thinking constitutes inferior thinking, but I can't get you to give an example how. You imply that you see further and that this is beneficial, but you don't say how. You keep coming back to aesthetics and creativity, intuitions, which are different than thought. Thought can be applied to them, and should be, and it ought to be all rigorous, none of it soft, vague, or fuzzy.

Have I shared my music with you? This is where I get creative and passionate. This is not what I am referring to with the term soft thinking. That's not thinking at all. It's pure feeling and muscle memory (the chords and scales).

The guitar solo begins about 3:32. There is no thinking then, just nonverbal "singing" with my hands. You are incorrect to assume that this dimension is absent from my life because reject soft thinking as a means of determining what is true in the world. This is a song by the Grateful Dead that my wife (on bass) and I performed in a coffee house (drums are synthetic). The guitar solo is a purely creative act. It's improvised - never the same, not pre-planned. But it is not an example of soft thinking. Thanking God for it might be.




So you keep saying. I'd say that I'm about as balanced as one can be. What can you add to my life with your special way of knowing that you think will make me more balanced? I keep making this comment because you and others keep reasserting the superiority of such thinking that you can't demonstrate, and it is my purpose to make this point by continually challenging others to explain what the value of what they are recommending is and having them not be able to offer any.

I offered the allegory of the people who could count but not add, who met a man who claimed to have a special way of knowing that allowed him to see more. He could add. If the others wanted to know how many sheep the merger of two flocks whose numbers had been counted, they had to count them altogether. They could only discover that merging a flock of 36 with one of 47 produces a flock of 83 by counting. The man says, I can see that the count will be (36+47=)83. The locals are stunned at this prophecy when it proves to be accurate. Truly, this man had a special way of knowing, and was able to demonstrate it. That never happens on these threads.



Nope. I wish you'd get that right. Creativity is not soft thinking. Soft thinking refers to one thing and one thing only - a faith-based approach to deciding what is true, which I consider guessing. That's it. Just that. If you want to critique me, understand me. Disagree with what I am saying, not what you mistake me for saying. That only leads to a straw man, where you equate me with Mr. Spock, an unfeeling, dimensionless reasoning machine. I'm Kirk - the synthesis of the Apollonian and Dionysian traditions: "In Greek mythology, Apollo and Dionysus are both sons of Zeus. Apollo is the god of the sun, of rational thinking and order, and appeals to logic, prudence and purity. Dionysus is the god of wine and dance, of irrationality and chaos, and appeals to emotions and instincts. The Ancient Greeks did not consider the two gods to be opposites or rivals, although they were often entwined by nature."

That's balance.



Teacher.


Yeah, I’ve heard some of your playing before. Anyone who plays like that has to be a pretty cool guy, in my book.

You and I just see the world differently, is all; and we speak different languages, in a sense. But that’s okay. It is what it is.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
You use the words differently than I do. A belief is anything one considers to be true to some degree (one may consider a belief certain, very probable, probable, etc..). If it is arrived at empirically and confirmed empirically, it is a fact. If it is arrived at any other way, it is believed by faith. By this reckoning, faith is a category of belief. I understand that this is not how you use these words, but if you intend to address my use of them, you should understand what I mean when I use them.
I understand it. But it's wrong. Faith is not belief. Faith is what we do when we don't know what to believe. I realize that a lot of religion preaches this misconception, and a lot of people accept it without thinking. But it IS a misconception. Faith is based on hope, and trusting in that hope through action. But this does not support your bias, and so you continue to ignore it. Because you really despise the idea that evidence and reason cannot see you through every dilemma. Or this is how it appears to me. And it's why we keep 'talking past' each other. It's like talking to republicans that want to blame the government for the corruption of government by rich capitalists because they just can't accept that capitalism could the problem. They are true believers and what they truly believe is that their belief is the truth. So it must be the truth even if it's not.

You're a true believer in the power of "objective evidence" to resolve all dilemmas regarding the truth of things. So anyone who would choose to do so using faith (trust in hope) must be a fool because they are deliberately defying the paradigm you hold so dear. But the truth is that there is no "objective evidence" because deciding what is and isn't "objective evidence" is in fact a subjective process. And so is the criteria one chooses to assess that evidence (reason). It's all subjective, and "believing" that it's not doesn't change that. But once you're a believer, as with all true believers, you can't see that, anymore.

You keep trying to explain your belief to me, but I already understand it. I just don't accept it as you have. I'm not a "believer". Because I understand that our beliefs are just a presumption of self-righteousness that we can't honestly or logically claim. So I'm not much interested in what we believe we know. I'm more interested in how we deal with our not knowing once we find the wisdom and courage to face it.
Reason always provides the best assessment, even when that assessment is that there isn't enough evidence to know as with the deist god. What's the alternative? Faith - guessing what is true or what will happen.
Faith isn't "guessing what is true or what will happen". It's choosing to act on what we hope to be true, and will happen. And it often works for us because in acting on that hope, we can sometimes bring the outcome that we'd hoped for into being.
We can validate some ideas - correct ones - empirically and allow them to become beliefs (facts).
Facts are only true relative to other facts. There is no need to "believe in" them. We can simply let them stand within their context. I don't get this obsession with 'belief' (the presumption of righteousness). We don't really need to believe anything, do we? We could just accept the apparent validity within the given context and leave it at that. When the context changes, and the apparent validity fails, we move on.
 
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mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I understand it. But it's wrong. Faith is not belief. Faith is what we do when we don't know what to believe. I realize that a lot of religion preaches this misconception, and a lot of people accept it without thinking. But it IS a misconception. Faith is based on hope, and trusting in that hope through action. But this does not support your bias, and so you continue to ignore it. Because you really despise the idea that evidence and reason cannot see you through every dilemma. Or this is how it appears to me. And it's why we keep 'talking past' each other. It's like talking to republicans that want to blame the government for the corruption of government by rich capitalists because they just can't accept that capitalism could the problem. They are true believers and what they truly believe is that their belief is the truth. So it must be the truth even if it's not.

You're a true believer in the power of "objective evidence" to resolve all dilemmas regarding the truth of things. So anyone who would choose to do so using faith (trust in hope) must be a fool because they are deliberately defying the paradigm you hold so dear. But the truth is that there is no "objective evidence" because deciding what is and isn't "objective evidence" is in fact a subjective process. And so is the criteria one chooses to assess that evidence (reason). It's all subjective, and "believing" that it's not doesn't change that. But once you're a believer, as with all true believers, you can't see that, anymore.

You keep trying to explain your belief to me, but I already understand it. I just don't accept it as you have. I'm not a "believer". Because I understand that our beliefs are just a presumption of self-righteousness that we can't honestly or logically claim. So I'm not much interested in what we believe we know. I'm more interested in how we deal with our not knowing once we find the wisdom and courage to face it.
Faith isn't "guessing what is true or what will happen". It's choosing to act on what we hope to happen. And it often works for us because in acting on that hope, we can sometimes bring the outcome that we'd hoped for into being.
Facts are only true relative to other facts. There is no need to "believe in" them. We can simple let them stand within their context. I don't get this obsession with 'belief' (the presumption of righteousness). We don't really need to believe, anything, do we? We could just accept the apparent validity within the given context and leave it at that. When the context changes, and the apparent validity fails, we move on.

Yeah, I am still learning from you and learn to claim faith and not belief if relevant.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You're a true believer in the power of "objective evidence" to resolve all dilemmas regarding the truth of things.

I believe that there is no other path to truth about reality than the proper interpretation of evidence. I've already explained to you that your words above misrepresent my position - you know, the one you keep saying you understand. For starters, I do not believe that all questions can be resolved using empiricism, just that those that cannot be resolved this way cannot be resolved by any method.

So anyone who would choose to do so using faith (trust in hope) must be a fool because they are deliberately defying the paradigm you hold so dear

I'd say it's the other way around. People advocating soft thinking as a means of deciding what is true about the world consider rigorous thinkers to be short-sighted because they won't support the paradigm faith-based thinkers use to justify their beliefs. Isn't that why so many faith-based thinkers are decrying this epistemology? It rejects theirs, and they want validation for it, so they condemn the lack of this soft thinking. Isn't that what you like to call self-righteousness? They're trying to make themselves right in the eyes of those who think otherwise.

And yes, faith is guessing. Trusting in hope doesn't have any meaning. One can hope, and one can trust, but what does trusting in hope mean? Nothing. It sounds like something you probably got out of the New Testament, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." That's also just fluff attempting to glorify the mindless choice to believe something because you hope it's true. I hope the US pulls out of its tailspin, but I have grave concerns. With faith, one can believe it will, and commit to that. As I said, that's guessing.

With faith, one can believe that the virus is more dangerous than the vaccine. Is this what you mean by trusting in hope - walking the streets unvaccinated because you have guessed that you will be OK? I have links to two sites that document the demise of the unvaccinated through their Facebook posts. They're more instructive than lumped fatality statistics. One sees how they think before they get sick and throughout the course of their illness to death. Watch their thinking evolve as they go from reporting mild symptoms to the ICU. They want you to pray for them. Some are angry about not getting ivermectin in the hospital, another faith-based guess. Some express regret before becoming intubated, which is when their social media posting generally stops, as many are in induced comas. Then the family takes over the posting. Pray for her and her six children, we're told. Then the "we regret to inform those that loved her that she has passed on to be with the Lord," then the GoFundMe for the funeral. That's the trust in hope you were referring to, isn't it?

https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/

How is your God belief any different than what I just described, apart from your faith being unlikely to be lethal? It's not. You believe something because you hope it is true just like those people. I need more before believing.

But the truth is that there is no "objective evidence" because deciding what is and isn't "objective evidence" is in fact a subjective process.

You've been listening to our resident epistemological nihilist. One can make accurate assessments about the nature of sensory experience that allows one to accurately predict the outcomes of situations. If you try to make it more complicated than that, you simply undermine the foundation of your thinking. Forget objective versus subjective. Think observable and reproducible. For get absolute truth, ultimate truth, and the like. Such ideas add nothing.

Belief informs decisions and drives actions. Actions then influence events in the external world, and those effects lead to repeatable consequences. This is what is meant by objective evidence. Don't trouble yourself about what's really out there or how the neural mechanisms distort it, just how well those beliefs allow one to predict outcomes. We expect similar decisions made under similar circumstances to lead to similar outcomes. The ultimate measure of the veracity and usefulness of a proposition is its capacity to inform decisions under the expectation of desirable consequences.

Forget ultimate reality. Forget pure objectivity. All we need to know is that we have desires and preferences, we make decisions, and we experience sensory perceptions of outcomes. If a man has belief B that some action A will produce desired result D, if B is true, then doing A will achieve D. When that happens, we add belief B to our fund of knowledge. It's a keeper. If A fails to achieve D, then B should be rejected. This is empiricism.

And what I have described is the correspondence theory of truth, truth being the quality facts possess, facts being linguistic strings (sentences) that accurately map some aspect of reality, which is determined empirically. There is no other path to truth than this. Ideas which do not conform to this formulation are not considered truth. If they're not falsifiable, they are considered neither correct nor incorrect, but "not even wrong."

This is an effective epistemology (strict empiricism). Belief by faith is not. Why? Because faith is not a path to truth. False ideas are held as easily as correct ones by this method, and since there are orders of magnitude more wrong ideas than correct ones, the odds of being correct by faith are as small as the number of possible errors is large, just as the number of losing lottery numbers (hundreds of millions) is orders of magnitude larger than the number of winning combinations (one).

Worse, even if one guesses correctly, he can never know until his guess is confirmed or disconfirmed empirically. With a lottery ticket, this means waiting for the drawing.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm not much interested in what we believe we know

I am. Obviously.

I'm more interested in how we deal with our not knowing once we find the wisdom and courage to face it.

I am also interested in that. That's a large part of my interest in faith. I refer you once again to the evolving biographies of the unvaxxed as they get sicker despite their faith. Will they ever develop the wisdom and courage to recognize that they made a mistake and acknowledge that? Some do. I respect them more. At least they finally looked at evidence, applied reason t it and came to a sound conclusion, perhaps for the first time since they initially refused a vaccine.

Others maintain faith. They (or others on their behalf) insist that they are not dying from COVID. Many blame the doctors for trying to kill them for being unvaccinated and taking up a needed bed, or by refusing them some faith-based remedy.

Faith isn't "guessing what is true or what will happen".

Yes it is, if the guess is believed. The beliefs that we hold that have been empirically confirmed are very different from the ones we hold without that evidence, the difference being that the former are confirmed hypotheses (facts) and the latter not (guesses). Notwithstanding the dependence of the religions on people making and believing these guesses (unevidenced beliefs) and its insistence on venerating faith as a virtue and demeaning reason -'the foolishness of those falsely thinking they are wise' - such beliefs are just guesses, and there is nothing virtuous about believing a guess. Au contraire. Epistemological virtue comes from eschewing faith-based guessing, from the desire to believe only true things and avoid adding false ideas to one's mental map.

It's choosing to act on what we hope to happen.

That comes after faith. Refer back to belief B (faith in this case) informing action A - like believing the election was a hoax by faith (belief B), then storming the Capitol (action A).

And that's the dangerous part - choosing to act on a faith-based belief. I told you how it harmed me in my Christian days. Though willing to immerse myself in faith, I still had critical thinking skills that I had agreed to ignore (suspension of disbelief) for a time, but it became clear simply by seeing how belief B that informed action A led to disaster D.

Belief B is probably harmless if it doesn't inform any action A. For example, if you believe by faith that there are angels in heaven, as long as it doesn't lead to making choices, what difference does it make if one holds such a belief. It's like inactive DNA in a genome. It just sits there affecting nothing. But let the faith-based belief in angels inform choices, such as to drive recklessly because you think a guardian angel is watching over you, well, that's like me marrying badly because I thought the Lord wanted me to, or refusing the vaccine.

And this is probably why you have no problem with faith. Yours doesn't inform decisions as best I can tell. You don't do anything that relies on the god you believe exists actually existing.

I don't get this obsession with 'belief' (the presumption of righteousness).

Belief is the presumption of correctness, which is determined empirically in the way I outlined above (is that what you mean by righteousness - rightness?). Does belief B reliably lead to desired outcome D in a way that other beliefs cannot? If yes, it is correct. Where do you see obsession there?

We don't really need to believe, anything, do we? We could just accept the apparent validity within the given context and leave it at that.

Accepting the apparent validity of an idea is belief in that idea. I think you make this unnecessarily complicated to the detriment of clarity.

And yes, we do need belief. We cannot function without it.

We need belief to inform our decisions in the service of achieving desired outcomes. And as I've noted, we should confirm that an idea does this before believing it, because we only want correct beliefs in our mental map of reality, lest we drive over a metaphorical cliff because it wasn't on our map (not desired outcome D).
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I believe that there is no other path to truth about reality than the proper interpretation of evidence.
I know, but you're wrong. There are many pathways into and through reality, but none of them will get us to the "truth about reality". Because the truth is the whole of it, and we can only know the parts that our chosen paths traverse.
I've already explained to you that your words above misrepresent my position - you know, the one you keep saying you understand. For starters, I do not believe that all questions can be resolved using empiricism, just that those that cannot be resolved this way cannot be resolved by any method.
Yes, I know you believe this. But again, you're wrong. Some of those questions can be resolved through faith. But you refuse to acknowledge the efficacy of faith. Instead, you insist on mislabeling it as an "unfounded belief" so that you can dismiss it.
I'd say it's the other way around. People advocating soft thinking as a means of deciding what is true about the world consider rigorous thinkers to be short-sighted because they won't support the paradigm faith-based thinkers use to justify their beliefs. Isn't that why so many faith-based thinkers are decrying this epistemology?
A lot of religious adherents are as confused as you are about what faith is. They also think it's unfounded belief. And as long as you keep focusing on them, you'll be able to maintain your own similar misconception. But is that really how you want to negotiate the issue? What'd be the point?
It rejects theirs, and they want validation for it, so they condemn the lack of this soft thinking. Isn't that what you like to call self-righteousness? They're trying to make themselves right in the eyes of those who think otherwise.
I think they're trying to make themselves 'righteous' in their own eyes (i.e., to 'believe'), but they have to eliminate the validity of all other possibilities to make that belief feel 'real'. Kind of like what you're doing with your belief in "the proper interpretation of the evidence".
And yes, faith is guessing.
"Guessing" infers that there is a 'right answer' to guess at. Faith accepts that all the possible answers are equally likely to be right and equally likely to be wrong. So that the only proper course of action is to choose the possibility that you would most hope to be 'right', act as if it is, and see what comes of it. Let the results determine the efficacy of the choice.
Trusting in hope doesn't have any meaning. One can hope, and one can trust, but what does trusting in hope mean?
It means trusting in what one hopes to be so even though one cannot know, believe, suspect, or otherwise determine it to be so; enough to act accordingly.
I hope the US pulls out of its tailspin, but I have grave concerns. With faith, one can believe it will, and commit to that. As I said, that's guessing.
No, it's trusting. No guesses are required. Only action in accordance with that trust is required by faith. (Faith without works is dead.)
With faith, one can believe that ...
Faith is not about belief. It's about what can happen when belief is not a reasonable, available possibility. You keep trying to insert the deliberate ignorance of reasonable, available possibilities and then call it faith. But when these exist, we don't need to rely on faith. We can choose to act on the information and evidence that's available to us, and on our trust in their efficacy. It's when these are not available to a reasonable degree that faith becomes an option. And in most human being's experiences, this happens most often in the area of determining our response to questions regarding existential meaning and purpose.
Belief informs decisions and drives actions.
So do intuition, instinct, emotion, chance, habit, biology, necessity, and hope (faith), ... and a lot of other potential motivations.
Actions then influence events in the external world, and those effects lead to repeatable consequences. This is what is meant by objective evidence.
Then acts of faith lead to "objective evidence", according to you, because they lead to repeatable consequences.
The ultimate measure of the veracity and usefulness of a proposition is its capacity to inform decisions under the expectation of desirable consequences.
Yes. This is why the vast majority of human beings on Earth choose faith in God as a viable, useful proposition to maintain. When they act on that faith in the course of their lives they find repeatable evidence of the positive efficacy of that proposition.

But they can't get that evidence 'up front', as you seem to want to demand. They have to act on their hope, without any advance evidence of it being efficacious, to gain efficacious results (or not).
If a man has belief B that some action A will produce desired result D, if B is true, then doing A will achieve D. When that happens, we add belief B to our fund of knowledge. It's a keeper. If A fails to achieve D, then B should be rejected. This is empiricism.
What he believes is irrelevant to this discussion. But ...

Right or wrong, if he already "believes" then he has no need of faith. He has his belief, instead. The problem for your believe, though, is that what he believes is based on his own less than complete information set, and on his own less-than-perfect capacity for assessing that information set. So he can 'believe' that he's right all he wants. But that doesn't logically make him one iota more or less right than he would have been had he chosen to remain skeptical, but to trust, anyway. All that 'belief and bluster' gains him nothing but a big blind spot (in most instances).
And what I have described is the correspondence theory of truth, truth being the quality facts possess, facts being linguistic strings (sentences) that accurately map some aspect of reality, which is determined empirically. There is no other path to truth than this. Ideas which do not conform to this formulation are not considered truth. If they're not falsifiable, they are considered neither correct nor incorrect, but "not even wrong."
No one is suggesting that anyone ignore facts. But facts are only bits of information that are true relative to other bits of information. They represent only contextual (relative) truth. They do not represent the whole truth. And when we pretend (believe) that they do, we fool ourselves into thinking that we know things that we don't actually know. This is a dishonest intellectual path that leads to an unhealthy way of life.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
you're wrong. Some of those questions can be resolved through faith. But you refuse to acknowledge the efficacy of faith. Instead, you insist on mislabeling it as an "unfounded belief" so that you can dismiss it.

If by resolved you only mean cease wondering, yes, faith is very good for that. If you mean correctly evaluated, then no, faith can contribute nothing.

And as long as you keep focusing on them, you'll be able to maintain your own similar misconception. But is that really how you want to negotiate the issue? What'd be the point?

Once again, you claim misconception for me, but can back that with nothing. Perhaps you believe that by faith, which would account for the lack of evidence you've provided. Let me rebut that in a like manner. Nuh-uh. It's your misconception. There's my entire case - a bare claim with no effort to support it with evidence.

the only proper course of action is to choose the possibility that you would most hope to be 'right', act as if it is, and see what comes of it.

Disagree again. Are you aware of risk management principles in making decisions? Those aren't the criteria. I hope to never be in an automobile accident, but I don't make insurance purchasing decisions as if my hope will be reality.

Do you never feel a need to justify your claims, or is it enough for you to merely assert them? Maybe I should have ended the response at "Disagree again."

Then acts of faith lead to "objective evidence", according to you, because they lead to repeatable consequences.

You misunderstood again.

I don't see the value in correcting you further. Let me answer as you do: You're wrong. That's the whole answer. You're wrong. Pretty convincing, huh? If you like, I can repeat it several more times without ever addressing your claims or objections or justifying mine.

When they act on that faith in the course of their lives they find repeatable evidence of the positive efficacy of that proposition.

Yes, if all you are looking for is a comforting placebo effect with your belief, you can get that, and it can be repeatable. People can become dependent on it, and reproducibly suffer discomfort by its withdrawal as well as relief by its restoration. That is observable and repeatable. But what is that evidence of? It's evidence of a personal need, not evidence for a deity, nor of the efficacy of faith at any other purpose than reassurance. If you're feeling vulnerable, it can make one feel safer that he is watched over by a deity. If you fear the possibility of the extinction of your consciousness after death, faith can be comforting. I've successfully resolved with those issues without faith, and by resolved, I mean that I have no fears and insecurities that can be benefited by faith.
 
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