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What do You Think Science is...

Yazata

Active Member
What do You Think Science Is?

I'm not convinced that science has a single essence that can be captured in a few words. I perceive it as a collection of closely related cognitive practices that arose in particular cultural contexts and are thus rather contingent.

But attempting to do just that, I guess that it's observation of physical reality (I don't really accept that the 'social sciences' are in fact sciences) using the conventional physical senses. (It doesn't recognize any putative spiritual senses, knowledge obtained through meditation or anything like that.)

Physics (the first modern science) goes beyond description by trying to correlate regularities observed with the senses by use of mathematics (which is arguably kind of an inconsistency, since mathematics is far more conceptual and isn't really something observed with the senses). So physics produces as its product mathematically formulated relationships between empirically observable variables.

The biological sciences are rather different in that they rarely result in those kind of mathematical formulations. Biologists remain far more descriptive, describing what they find inside organisms (anatomy and histology) and how organisms interact with their environment (ecology in the scientific sense, before activists hijacked the word). Where physics produces explanations by fitting observed events into mathematical regularities, biology is more likely to produce explanations by constructing 'mechanical' models of interacting parts. Biologists are also very fond of producing reductive explanations in terms of chemistry. An overarching framework tying all of the biological sciences together into a conceptual whole is probably the idea of evolution by natural selection.

As opposed to religion?

Again, I don't believe that religion possesses a single defining essence. I follow Wittgenstein in thinking of it as a family resemblance concept. Religions that we are familiar with display a variety of attributes. We observe similar cultural formations in foreign cultures that display many of the same attributes. But probably not every one. There may not even be a single property that all religions possess and that only religions possess. There probably isn't. But if some foreign cultural formation sufficiently resembles what we already think of as a religion, we will call that foreign cultural formation a religion too.

What are some of the qualities that seem particularly common among religions? A very basic one might be the idea that human beings should attune themselves somehow with whatever is thought of as ultimately real. The ultimately real might be conceptualized many different ways, though its often personalized in terms of deities (one or many). That attunement often has a very obvious moral component and we often encounter the idea of morality being somehow divinely revealed. A basic thing about religion as opposed to science is that religion has a prescriptive should component that it wears on its sleeve, it presents a prescription for how people should live their lives in attunement with whatever reality's ultimate principles are imagined to be.

Interestingly, science in its contemporary popular manifestations is veering closer to religion in the way that it's turning into moral exhortation. Pick up a copy of Scientific American these days, and the reader might think that he or she has stumbled into a meeting of 17th century Puritans. Perhaps it's inevitable, as religion recedes in cultural significance in the modern world, replaced by science as the grand cultural authority, that science will expand to fill the cultural space once occupied by religion and thereby become more religion-like.
 
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Audie

Veteran Member
Well of course, if someone claims they can fly unaided to the moon, but only when no one can see or detect them, am I supposed to imagine that this "testimony" is evidence for the experience they claim to have had?

You often do this, and you're not alone, in assuming that people who don't see religious claims as evidence, must therefore be biased against them, even though they apply that standard universally to all claims.

I don't disbelieve claims that are unsupported by sufficient objective evidence, just because I'm biased against them, but precisely because I would have to accept conflicting claims that used the same standard of subjective anecdotal experience, or use subjective bias to arbitrarily select some or one to believe or disbelieve. Bias is what I am keen to avoid, when I subject all claims to the same standard.
I used to listen to " coast to coast"

These people would talk in great and
serious detail about bigfoot, their trips into
the hollow earth,, astral projection,, remote viewing, greys and reptoids, shadow people,
elves, chupacabra, " out of body"etc, on and on.

If people like to believe nonsense like that,
let them.
Its not your deficiency that is involved.

Maybe they would trust the judgment of a military leader who just goes about believing things.
Not in my country, I hope.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Like someone telling all atheists, that they must hold a belief that no deity exists, even after they specifically explained they do not.
Or going on and on about " scientism" in RF
but rejecting the glaring evidence against its existence, and blaming the audience for
not accepting his " evidence" that it really
really is there.

Hey, there is a Wall St bull statue of SOLID PLATINUM right beside the bronze one!

Squint like I do and you will see it too!
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
Correction: via science, we can seek to understand HOW different people have different reactions to food in terms of a 'taste experience'. But not WHY. One of the reasons that 'scientism' so often occurs is that people confuse and conflate these two very different paths of inquiry.
I don't see that "how" and "why" require different paths of inquiry, I'd even say there is a lot of cross-over between the two. For example, we have a good idea of why some things taste bad as it often corelates with substances that are rotten or poisonous and we've also come to understand how those things create the sensation of tasting bad.

But by "more reliable" all we really get is more predictably functional. NOT necessarily more knowledgeably accurate. A LOT of people do not understand this, and don't want to understand it. More fuel for the 'scientism' cult.
Not necessarily more accurate but more likely to be accurate. This really isn't about scientific method though, just simple common sense - if you gather more information and assess it in more structured ways, you're more likely to come up with accurate conclusions. Nothing is guaranteed of course, but that is true in general, not only of science.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I believe you believe what you want whether there is evidence or not.

If you approach any field of human enquiry with that degree of contempt prior to investigation, in all likelihood you will succeed only in confirming your own prejudices. This is as true in the sciences as it is in religion or philosophy, the arts, or any other voyage of discovery to which man may apply his mind or soul.

I'm sorry, but it's not possible to hit the "Winner" rating more than once. :D

Nicely put though.
@RestlessSoul the evolution theory - the notion that all life descended from one common ancestor - for example, is not based on investigation that led to that conclusion, but a conclusion that led to the theory.
Those who believe the philosophy won't admit that though.
They claim that religion uses that approach, when they adopt that method.

Religion, contrary to the claim. does go where the evidence leads, by determining if something is a conclusive fact, and using that as a basis. Psalms 10:4 puts it this way...
"In his haughtiness, the wicked man makes no investigation; All his thoughts are: “There is no God.”" (Psalm 10:4)
It cannot be said any clearer than that.

We know for a fact that haughtiness prevents one from being reasonable, and willing to look at things reasonably... In other words, arrogant pride blinds.
We also know for a fact, that to investigate, means to have an open mind, and not close doors to leads simply because they do not understand something.
Interestingly, billions of dollars are still being spent in SETI. What are they looking for? The unknown? Why? Anyone?

There are many examples I can state, but maybe someone would be interested in discussing that in another thread... Maybe.

Sorry @Audie I did not know how else to highlight the font, except to put it in color. Do you have any suggestions on a better way to highlight text? Should I make them bigger and bolder?
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I don't see that "how" and "why" require different paths of inquiry, I'd even say there is a lot of cross-over between the two. For example, we have a good idea of why some things taste bad as it often corelates with substances that are rotten or poisonous and we've also come to understand how those things create the sensation of tasting bad.

Not necessarily more accurate but more likely to be accurate. This really isn't about scientific method though, just simple common sense - if you gather more information and assess it in more structured ways, you're more likely to come up with accurate conclusions. Nothing is guaranteed of course, but that is true in general, not only of science.

I agree, but more tellingly is that scientific facts don't vary depending on the culture or epoch they originate in, or from country to country, and were the entirety of science eradicated and we had to start again, all those facts would unfold just as they have done, whereas religions would be as varied and different as the cultures that spawn them.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Religion, contrary to the claim. does go where the evidence leads, by determining if something is a conclusive fact, and using that as a basis. Psalms 10:4 puts it this way...
"In his haughtiness, the wicked man makes no investigation; All his thoughts are: “There is no God.”" (Psalm 10:4)
It cannot be said any clearer than that.

We know for a fact that haughtiness prevents one from being reasonable, and willing to look at things reasonably... In other words, arrogant pride blinds.
We also know for a fact, that to investigate, means to have an open mind, and not close doors

Yes religions are known for their open minded pursuit of the evidence, over things like faith and dogma, that's why the belief doesn't arrive at different conclusions in different cultures and epochs. Please tell me this post is an ironic attempt at levity?
 
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Audie

Veteran Member
I don't see that "how" and "why" require different paths of inquiry, I'd even say there is a lot of cross-over between the two. For example, we have a good idea of why some things taste bad as it often corelates with substances that are rotten or poisonous and we've also come to understand how those things create the sensation of tasting bad.

Not necessarily more accurate but more likely to be accurate. This really isn't about scientific method though, just simple common sense - if you gather more information and assess it in more structured ways, you're more likely to come up with accurate conclusions. Nothing is guaranteed of course, but that is true in general, not only of science.

Why does the tide go in and out is not
all that spiritual a q.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Like someone telling all atheists, that they must hold a belief that no deity exists, even after they specifically explained they do not.
I couldn't care less what an atheist believes. Many of them don't even know, themselves. What they ASSERT is that no gods exist because there is no "evidence" (meaning proof). And they do this because they think they are the arbiters of what is and is not "evidence".
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
Well of course,...
But YOU are not the definer of what "evidence" is. You just think you are because you are ruled by your own biased ego rather than by logic. Even though you swear your allegiance to logic and evidence as if they were deities, themselves. When in reality, all you're beholding to is your own subjective bias.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I don't see that "how" and "why" require different paths of inquiry, I'd even say there is a lot of cross-over between the two. For example, we have a good idea of why some things taste bad as it often corelates with substances that are rotten or poisonous and we've also come to understand how those things create the sensation of tasting bad.
But all you've done here is make an assumption. You assume toxic food tastes bad to us to tell us it's toxic. But science did not determine this. You just made it up because it seems logical to you. In fact, science can't tell us WHY (some) toxic foods taste bad (or why many foods that are not toxic also taste bad). It's very important to understand this, because it's in NOT understanding it that we start making assumptions and presuming truths that are really nothing more than make-believe (scientism). Something that those who worship science as the fountainhead of all "reality and truth" ought to abhor, and yet aren't even aware of.
Not necessarily more accurate but more likely to be accurate.
"Likely to be" according to what? Not science. Not 'objective evidence'. According to 'scientism'.
This really isn't about scientific method though, just simple common sense - if you gather more information and assess it in more structured ways, you're more likely to come up with accurate conclusions. Nothing is guaranteed of course, but that is true in general, not only of science.
Ah! "Common sense". Well, that settles it, then. :)

Relabel it "empiricism" and then is MUST BE TRUE!
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
But all you've done here is make an assumption.
No I didn't, I reported the conclusions of scientific research in the field I happened to be aware of. It certainly isn't a definitive answer and the area is much more complex than just that aspect but the general point was that scientific method can be used to consider "why" questions as well as "how" questions.

"Likely to be" according to what? Not science. Not 'objective evidence'. According to 'scientism'.
Effectively yes, "according to science". I was literally saying that it is scientific method that makes the conclusions reached using it more likely (though not guaranteed) to be accurate that simple guesswork or unsupported assumption.

Ah! "Common sense". Well, that settles it, then. :)

Relabel it "empiricism" and then is MUST BE TRUE!
You're trying to put words in my mouth. I have specifically and repeatedly stated that scientific conclusions are not guaranteed to be true. My point remains that scientific method is a valid and effective way we have to understand anything we're capable of observing. All you've been able to offer in response is misrepresentation, sarcasm and the implied insult that anyone promoting science is guilty of "scientism".
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
But YOU are not the definer of what "evidence" is. You just think you are because you are ruled by your own biased ego

in reality, all you're beholding to is your own subjective bias.

:handpointdown::handpointdown::handpointdown::handpointdown::handpointdown: :facepalm:

I couldn't care less what an atheist believes. Many of them don't even know, themselves.

b6a.jpg
 

lukethethird

unknown member
But YOU are not the definer of what "evidence" is. You just think you are because you are ruled by your own biased ego rather than by logic. Even though you swear your allegiance to logic and evidence as if they were deities, themselves. When in reality, all you're beholding to is your own subjective bias.
Said the true believer.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
But all you've done here is make an assumption. You assume toxic food tastes bad to us to tell us it's toxic. But science did not determine this. You just made it up because it seems logical to you. In fact, science can't tell us WHY (some) toxic foods taste bad (or why many foods that are not toxic also taste bad). It's very important to understand this, because it's in NOT understanding it that we start making assumptions and presuming truths that are really nothing more than make-believe (scientism). Something that those who worship science as the fountainhead of all "reality and truth" ought to abhor, and yet aren't even aware of.
"Likely to be" according to what? Not science. Not 'objective evidence'. According to 'scientism'.
Ah! "Common sense". Well, that settles it, then. :)

Relabel it "empiricism" and then is MUST BE TRUE!
Nothing like a religious fanatic splaining it all, that nasty reason, objective evidence, empericism, why can't people just believe in a God without evidence and be done with it?
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
PureX said:
But YOU are not the definer of what "evidence" is. You just think you are because you are ruled by your own biased ego rather than by logic. Even though you swear your allegiance to logic and evidence as if they were deities, themselves. When in reality, all you're beholding to is your own subjective bias.
Said the true believer.

Well , after I stopped chuckling at that hilarious diatribe, and the even more hilarious accusation of bias, one can't help but notice he is telling atheists, that they disagree with theists, and their beliefs about what constitutes evidence. I am not going to lie to you, this is disconcerting news. :rolleyes:

When was this not allowed in debate? Unlike telling someone they hold a belief, after they have specifically and repeatedly explained they don't. He even did it here again, the arrogance and bias in that is surely manifest? Well, apparently not to everyone.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
Well , after I stopped chuckling at that hilarious diatribe, and the even more hilarious accusation of bias, one can't help but notice he is telling atheists, that they disagree with theists, and their beliefs about what constitutes evidence. I am not going to lie to you, this is disconcerting news. :rolleyes:

When was this not allowed in debate? Unlike telling someone they hold a belief, after they have specifically and repeatedly explained they don't. He even did it here again, the arrogance and bias in that is surely manifest? Well, apparently not to everyone.
Imagine being offended by those that use reason, that's got to be frustrating when trying to sell your God idea to people that ask the simplest of questions.
 
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